# Hyperloop: Elon Musk's revolutionary transportation concept **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [July 27, 2013, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hyperloop-elon-musks-revolutionary-transportation-concept/664701 "2013-07-27T22:18:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2013, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hyperloop-elon-musks-revolutionary-transportation-concept/664701/81 "2013-08-13T13:49:05Z")
> [@aNewLeaf](#): > > Oh hell yes. Washington DC to Kansas City to Denver. Seems like Houston - Dallas - OKC - St. Louis - Chicago would be a good flat, straight set of routes. I have a question though; how will this work when you hit a station? Say your pod goes from OKC to St. Louis, but you want to continue on to Chicago? Do you have to de-pod in St. Louis and hop on another (with your luggage) to continue on, or does your pod just slow down, pick some people up and keep on going? In other words, is it to be a series of loops, or one big loop with “pit stop” areas where pods can be shunted to drop people on and off, and where “express” pods can keep on going? ---
**Author:** ![aNewLeaf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ac91a4/32.png) [@aNewLeaf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aNewLeaf)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2013, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hyperloop-elon-musks-revolutionary-transportation-concept/664701/82 "2013-08-13T14:33:52Z")
The PDF describes baggage being in a separate compartment, loaded by employees. But I think carryon is the way to go for most people, this is intended as a daily ride the way people do 45 minutes on the freeway today. For a multi-city loop, I think each pod will be going to/from a single destination. If you are headed to OKC, your pod gets shunted to a side tube and the Chicago pod is unaffected. You could stop and start them at each city but that loses a lot of the time efficiency. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2013, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hyperloop-elon-musks-revolutionary-transportation-concept/664701/83 "2013-08-13T14:51:48Z")
> [@Claverhouse](#): > > Forget the speed of sound, I’m more concerned with the fact that a scientist knows squat about 1900. That was my first “what?”. Have they never heard of steam locomotives? Maybe they meant 1800? And they also said “Since 1960, though, the needle on how fast we can travel hasn’t moved at all.”–forgetting about the Concorde airline. Remember kids, do your term projects earlier than the night before the due date. Your teachers can tell. ---
**Author:** ![Sateryn76](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e4f/32.png) [@Sateryn76](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sateryn76)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2013, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hyperloop-elon-musks-revolutionary-transportation-concept/664701/84 "2013-08-13T16:38:33Z")
Another thought - what if every tenth pod or so was used for freight? Transport costs could drop considerably, with the distribution of goods between somewhere like Chicago and Dallas priced higher and subsidizing the ticket cost. I could imagine a setup similar to a train yard, with pods loaded at the factory and trucked to the pod station. ---
**Author:** ![aNewLeaf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ac91a4/32.png) [@aNewLeaf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aNewLeaf)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2013, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hyperloop-elon-musks-revolutionary-transportation-concept/664701/85 "2013-08-13T16:50:48Z")
The PDF talks a bit about freight pods and automobile carriers. ---
**Author:** ![Delayed\_Reflex](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/delayed_reflex/32/3172_2.png) [@Delayed\_Reflex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Delayed_Reflex)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2013, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hyperloop-elon-musks-revolutionary-transportation-concept/664701/86 "2013-08-13T17:07:41Z")
> [@The\_Hamster\_King](#): > > It’s exactly this sort of detail x 1000 that makes Musk’s proposal ludicrous. > > In principle, yes, it could work. But putting that principle into practice requires a tremendous amount of engineering work because there will be thousands of little unexpected hitches that will emerge when you actually start building the thing. High-speed rail is the result of 200 years of incremental innovation. The problem domain is very well understood. Most of the engineering work has already been done, and any hitches that emerge are going to be relatively small. > > HyperLoop (what a stupid name) is a completely untested technology. Basically all Musk has are some back-of-the-envelope calculations that say it’s theoretically possible. There are literally tens of thousands of little engineering problems that need to be solved before this thing would be ready to carry human passengers. Solving those problems will take decades and drive the cost through the roof. > > All Musk is done is demonstrate his own naivete as an engineer. That was my reaction as well. Seems like something right out of Popular Science. > [@pancakes3](#): > > During rush hour, generously from 5am-9am, only 13,440 can use it for commute. 80,640 a day. Tokyo services 8.7 million people in its metro. Moscow 6.6 million. Seoul 5.6 million. Shanghai 7 million. Beijing 6.4 million. NYC 5 million. Being the lucky 13,440 who NEED to get from SF to LA with money on the line, they’ll be willing to pony up a lot more than $20. Yeah that’s one reason that I don’t feel like this is much of a competitor for trains - the peaking capacity is far to low for commuter use (840 passengers per hour in each direction - apparently high speed trains can easily take 10,000 - 20,000 passengers per hour). If it were to be built as described it would surely make more sense to be charging a far higher premium given that it would be the fastest mode of transport between the two destinations by a large margin. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2013, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hyperloop-elon-musks-revolutionary-transportation-concept/664701/87 "2013-08-13T18:31:40Z")
> [@Pleonast](#): > > And they also said “Since 1960, though, the needle on how fast we can travel hasn’t moved at all.”–forgetting about the Concorde airline. > > Remember kids, do your term projects earlier than the night before the due date. Your teachers can tell. Remember kids, anyone on the internet can blame you for something that a _journalist_ wrote. Incidentally, the Concorde flew in 1969, so it’s not like the statement is all that far off. And since service ended, we’re back to the 707 days. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2013, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hyperloop-elon-musks-revolutionary-transportation-concept/664701/88 "2013-08-13T18:55:22Z")
> [@Delayed\_Reflex](#): > > That was my reaction as well. Seems like something right out of Popular Science. Actually, FORTUNE magazine. [In 1965.](http://blog.modernmechanix.com/the-400-mph-passenger-train/) ---
**Author:** ![aNewLeaf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ac91a4/32.png) [@aNewLeaf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aNewLeaf)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2013, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hyperloop-elon-musks-revolutionary-transportation-concept/664701/89 "2013-08-13T19:00:26Z")
> [@The\_Hamster\_King](#): > > Actually, FORTUNE magazine. [In 1965.](http://blog.modernmechanix.com/the-400-mph-passenger-train/) Difference being, this one could plausibly be built using current materials and technologies. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2013, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hyperloop-elon-musks-revolutionary-transportation-concept/664701/90 "2013-08-13T19:48:41Z")
> [@rejemy](#): > > While it seems like the hyperloop is theoretically possible, it would highly surprise me if it was possible to build the track for anything near the costs estimated in this paper. Being able to mass produce pylons and tunnel segments definitely helps, but pouring foundations along a thousand miles of diverse terrain, transporting heavy materials, the labor involved… it just seems their estimates are way low. > > However, the cost isn’t what’s going to doom the hyperloop, it’s the human factor. The pods have such a small interior that claustrophobia will be a real issue, even in people that don’t usually experience it. Being in a reclined chair with the walls and ceiling inches from your body in each direction, with no possibility of getting up, moving or escaping would, I imagine, cause regular panic freakouts from all kinds of people who didn’t expect to have a problem. Want to be in a tiny pressurized capsule shooting down a pitch-black sealed tube with possibly multiple panicked people trying get out of their tiny confined seats? Letting people move around inside a vehicle that’s travelling very fast on air cushions could also be a problem. Unless the passengers are a very tiny fraction of the total mass of the pod, a person jumping about (or tripping and falling flat) could cause the pod to graze the tube walls. ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2013, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hyperloop-elon-musks-revolutionary-transportation-concept/664701/91 "2013-08-13T20:43:47Z")
> [@Pleonast](#): > > And they also said “Since 1960, though, the needle on how fast we can travel hasn’t moved at all.”–forgetting about the Concorde airline. Or the X-15. ---
**Author:** ![RedSwinglineOne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a9adbd/32.png) [@RedSwinglineOne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedSwinglineOne)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2013, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hyperloop-elon-musks-revolutionary-transportation-concept/664701/92 "2013-08-13T22:15:41Z")
> [@Dr.Strangelove](#): > > The cars are 3,100 kg and hit 312 m/s top speed, so there’s around 151 MJ of KE. > . 3100kg is only the weight of the structure. > [@](#): > > The overall structure weight is expected to be near 6,800 lb (3,100 kg) > including the luggage compartments and door mechanism. The overall cost of > the structure including manufacturing is targeted to be no more than $245,000. > [@](#): > > The overall propulsion system weight attached to the capsule is expected to be near 2,900 lb (1,300 kg) including the support and emergency braking system. > The overall cost of the system is targeted to be no more than $125,000. This > brings the total capsule weight near 33,000 lb (15,000 kg) including passenger > and luggage weight. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2013, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hyperloop-elon-musks-revolutionary-transportation-concept/664701/93 "2013-08-13T22:28:14Z")
> [@aNewLeaf](#): > > Difference being, this one could plausibly be built using current materials and technologies. It could be plausibly built then. [Rensselaer had a working prototype of the HyperLoop running back in the 1960s.](http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/infrastructure/future.cfm) (Skip down to the section marked “A Dream Train”.) The idea never went anywhere. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2013, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hyperloop-elon-musks-revolutionary-transportation-concept/664701/94 "2013-08-13T22:29:11Z")
> [@RedSwinglineOne](#): > > 3100kg is only the weight of the structure. Good catch! That was a silly mistake. So, the KE is more like 750 MJ. That’s a significant difference but still not insurmountable. The skid pads can be wider, and there is a huge headroom in the capsule spacing. Also, as mentioned, air brakes and the like are possible. ---
**Author:** ![aNewLeaf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ac91a4/32.png) [@aNewLeaf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aNewLeaf)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2013, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hyperloop-elon-musks-revolutionary-transportation-concept/664701/95 "2013-08-13T23:01:59Z")
> [@The\_Hamster\_King](#): > > It could be plausibly built then. [Rensselaer had a working prototype of the HyperLoop running back in the 1960s.](http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/infrastructure/future.cfm) (Skip down to the section marked “A Dream Train”.) The idea never went anywhere. Did you read what you linked me to? It’s not like what is currently being described. “tube train, suspended and propelled by compressed air.” This device is propelled electrically. And that makes a huge difference in feasibility vs air pressure. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2013, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hyperloop-elon-musks-revolutionary-transportation-concept/664701/96 "2013-08-13T23:02:29Z")
[Nice blog post about how Musk is playing fast and loose with the numbers.](http://pedestrianobservations.wordpress.com/2013/08/13/loopy-ideas-are-fine-if-youre-an-entrepreneur/) (Short summary: He’s misrepresenting both the costs of HSR and the elevated viaducts HyperLoop would require. His proposed system would also subject passengers to extreme lateral and vertical accelerations. “It’s not transportation; it’s a barf ride.”) ---
**Author:** ![garygnu](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/garygnu/32/2924_2.png) [@garygnu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/garygnu)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2013, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hyperloop-elon-musks-revolutionary-transportation-concept/664701/97 "2013-08-13T23:03:07Z")
I like the idea, but it is literally a pipe dream. I agree it’s something that I’d see on the cover of Popular Mechanic or the like. The construction cost estimate is laughably small, and there would be complications hampering every single step to making it a real working transportation system, from planning, refining the design, easements, right of way issues, safety, construction, inevitable construction delays, ticket pricing, passenger comfort, security, maintenance, you get the idea. I don’t care how much the paper says it accounts for that, it’s going to take an order of magnitude more money to finish it. And travel times will be half as fast and ticket twice as much. I really would like to see it get built, though. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2013, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hyperloop-elon-musks-revolutionary-transportation-concept/664701/98 "2013-08-13T23:54:20Z")
> [@The\_Hamster\_King](#): > > (Short summary: He’s misrepresenting both the costs of HSR and the elevated viaducts HyperLoop would require. His proposed system would also subject passengers to extreme lateral and vertical accelerations. “It’s not transportation; it’s a barf ride.”) The author doesn’t understand anything about how passengers react to G loads. The worst you can say is that the +0.5 g portions will be slightly uncomfortable due to the increased weight. It has nothing to do with motion sickness. The passengers never perceive any lateral acceleration; the force force vector is always to the floor (or front/rear) of the car. The seats are designed for increased comfort for this type of acceleration and obviously transitions will be designed to be smooth (low jerk). ---
**Author:** ![GrandWino](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grandwino/32/67_2.png) [@GrandWino](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GrandWino)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2013, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hyperloop-elon-musks-revolutionary-transportation-concept/664701/99 "2013-08-14T00:25:26Z")
Imagine these pylons every so many miles along I-5. And each has a power source of some sort for the Hyperloop. He mentions that the solar panels will collect a surplus of energy. Now think about his connection to Tesla Motors. If this thing gets built and is successful, we’ll eventually all be driving electric cars\*, able to stop along I-5 as needed to charge up. \*Hyperbole, but it would certainly be a synergistic dynamic being formed. ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2013, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hyperloop-elon-musks-revolutionary-transportation-concept/664701/100 "2013-08-14T00:48:49Z")
> [@Bob Ducca](#): > > If this thing gets built and is successful, we’ll eventually all be driving electric cars\*, able to stop along I-5 as needed to charge up. > > \*Hyperbole, but it would certainly be a synergistic dynamic being formed. That’s the plan, completely separate from the Hyperloop: they’re installing high-speed charging stations every 200 miles all across the country. Provided you buy a top-end Tesla, you’ll be able to stop and get a full charge in about 40 minutes, just long enough to have a leisurely lunch or dinner. And, they’re not charging for the electricity. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hyperloop-elon-musks-revolutionary-transportation-concept/664701.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hyperloop-elon-musks-revolutionary-transportation-concept/664701.md?page=6)