# Hyphenated last names: woman's name first? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [May 27, 2009, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hyphenated-last-names-womans-name-first/497773 "2009-05-27T03:47:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2009, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hyphenated-last-names-womans-name-first/497773/21 "2009-05-27T18:48:10Z")
> [@KarlGrenze](#): > > So that’s why they keep putting my second last name as my first last name when addressing me! > > When I was in Florida, I decided to start hyphenating my last names, so I went by Grenze-Secondlastname. I’m guessing since Florida had a lot of Hispanic students, they caught up on that, and learned to address me as either complete Grenze-Secondlastname or just as Grenze (which is what is usually done, to use the first last name). > > Then when I moved to Louisiana, and also now in Georgia, people keep addressing me as “Secondlastname” despite that being the last name of the hyphenated pair. In fact, my vet school email address is “secondlastname” because that’s what they thought was my “real name” when they set up the account for me. My LSU email (not the same), though, does have “grenze” in it. > > **Pedant** , usually only the first two last names of the couples are passed on the kids (typically the paternal granparent’s last names). > > IF Smith Watson is a man that marries Johnson Gomez, their kid traditionally and doesn’t matter with respect to gender, will be Smith Johnson (in Spanish countries). IF Smith Johnson is a male and marries Petersen-Mtumbe, their kid, traditionally, will be Smith Petersen. > > You can tag the rest of the last names as follow if you’re playing genealogy, but legally is Smith Petersen. Four names will be Smith Petersen Johnson Mtumbe. > > The thing is, provided you have the two last names of your ancestors, you can go back real far with little difficulty, by going through that pattern. I think the explanation is more likely that they thought your first family name was your middle name and the second family name the last name. Also it is not uncommon is Spain that people are known by their second family name if it is more recognizable. Like “[Zapatero](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jose_Luis_Rodriguez_Zapatero)” ---
**Author:** ![KarlGrenze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dbc845/32.png) [@KarlGrenze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGrenze)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2009, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hyphenated-last-names-womans-name-first/497773/22 "2009-05-27T18:52:49Z")
Well, yea, which is related to what someone else posted above, wasn’t it? That the female last name was considered to become the middle name. BTW, it is likely they thought I could be married (particularly the vet school), and as such acted like that. But if the etiquette seems to be “The first name doesn’t count, it is the second one”… I can see then how they ended up mangling my name. ---
**Author:** ![Rubystreak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Rubystreak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rubystreak)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2009, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hyphenated-last-names-womans-name-first/497773/23 "2009-05-27T20:52:03Z")
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > The appeal in the OP to find a “rule” where the most obvious rule is that everyone gets to choose their own name exemplifies nicely our collective inability to simply step up to the plate and decide for ourselves once we figure out we can’t all be first and we can’t all be last. I know you already apologized, but I feel I need to clarify. One does not want to commit an accidental faux pas with one’s child’s name. Thus, if there is a rule of which one is unaware, it’s a good idea to find out what it is before going ahead with naming. So, I figured I’d ask, in GQ, so as not to get people’s unsolicited opinions about hyphenated names, which I explicitly did not want. My reason for wanting my last name to come second is because the other away around, the initial combination would be unsavory. Since there’s no particular rule either way, I can do it how I want without worrying about screwing up. This thread served its purpose, and thanks to all who posted informative commentary. ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2009, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hyphenated-last-names-womans-name-first/497773/24 "2009-05-27T21:19:35Z")
> [@Rubystreak](#): > > This thread served its purpose, and thanks to all who posted informative commentary. Now that it’s served its purpose, perhaps the obligatory Johann Gambolputty link which comes to my mind whenever I see commentary on hyphenated last names… [![](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/yYMRjnM6j6w/hqdefault.jpg "Monty Python's - Johann Gambolputty") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yYMRjnM6j6w) Still one of my Monty Python favorites. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2009, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hyphenated-last-names-womans-name-first/497773/25 "2009-05-27T22:12:08Z")
> [@SanVito](#): > > Out of interest, is it a common practice to double-barrel wives’/husbands’ names in the US? It’s really not that common in the UK and is seen as rather a posh people’s sport (happens particularly if the wife comes from a more notable family than the husband). It’s rather hit or miss - remember that the US covers a much larger geographical area than the UK. Hyphenating names are most common on either coast, more common in the north, and large urban areas. It is also more commonly seen among women who marry later in life, and/or work in areas where name recognition is a significant factor, such as acting, the arts, scientific/medical researchers who publish in peer reviewed journals, and in corporate America though it is by no means universal even in any of those areas. Another option is for a woman to use her maiden name professionally while changing her legal name, but that adds additional complications. I have found that government agencies, at all levels, are FAR more accommodating to hyphenated names than are private individuals and even many companies. The bigger the business the more likely they are to accommodate this. ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2009, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hyphenated-last-names-womans-name-first/497773/26 "2009-05-27T23:28:02Z")
> [@SanVito](#): > > …It’s really not that common in the UK and is seen as rather a posh people’s sport (happens particularly if the wife comes from a more notable family than the husband). Often the husband would recieve additional property in the marriage settlement for doing this. One advantage to putting the husband’s surname first is that you’ll appear close to him and the kids in alphabetical lists (assuming he keeps & passes on his name to the kids). ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2009, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hyphenated-last-names-womans-name-first/497773/27 "2009-05-28T02:26:35Z")
> [@SanVito](#): > > I’d always thought I’d go with the order that just sounded better. However, my girlfriend and I both have rather long and difficult to spell names already, so I imagine, should we ever decide to go down the marriage route, that we’d just keep our own names. > > Out of interest, is it a common practice to double-barrel wives’/husbands’ names in the US? It’s really not that common in the UK and is seen as rather a posh people’s sport (happens particularly if the wife comes from a more notable family than the husband). Among my colleagues–professionals, mostly; typically physicians–I see hyphenated last names used by women more than men within the same couple. Even more commonly than hypenations, I see the woman simply keep her own surname for almost everything, but not making any sort of big deal out of it should an assumption be made by outsiders she uses her husband’s last name. I don’t see any hyphenations where the man’s name is first, and I don’t see children using any name but the father’s last, regardless of whether they are male or female children. I have a vague sense that hyphenated names here in my area are seen as pretentious and/or indecisive, but of course that may be my own personal circle. FWIW I live in the Chicago suburbs. Midwest US. ---
**Author:** ![Rubystreak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Rubystreak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rubystreak)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2009, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hyphenated-last-names-womans-name-first/497773/28 "2009-05-28T03:38:44Z")
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > I don’t see any hyphenations where the man’s name is first, and I don’t see children using any name but the father’s last, regardless of whether they are male or female children. > > I have a vague sense that hyphenated names here in my area are seen as pretentious and/or indecisive, but of course that may be my own personal circle. Hyphenations are by no means common, but I have about 5 out of 80 students this year who have it. If the mother and father have different last names, and value their names equally, I don’t see why anyone has the right to judge them “indecisive or pretentious” for wanting the child to have both their names. But I guess people have a lot of spare time to judge others without any more information than their kids’ last name. ---
**Author:** ![SanVito](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sanvito/32/2805_2.png) [@SanVito](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SanVito)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2009, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hyphenated-last-names-womans-name-first/497773/29 "2009-05-28T13:13:13Z")
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > Even more commonly than hypenations, I see the woman simply keep her own surname for almost everything, but not making any sort of big deal out of it should an assumption be made by outsiders she uses her husband’s last name. Actually I was going to ask about this. In the UK I find it much more common for professional women to continue to use their maiden name for work purposes and their husband’s name for private purposes (e.g. Cherie Booth/Blair, Tony Blair’s wife). It’s also very common for the wife to just keep her own name for all purposes (in which case, the children would ‘normally’ take the husband’s name). ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2009, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hyphenated-last-names-womans-name-first/497773/30 "2009-05-28T13:45:51Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > For what it’s worth, when _ **the woman** _ (alone) on entering a marriage determines to hyphenate her maiden name with her husband’s surname, the custom seems to be that she places her maiden name first: Marcia Plumb marries Jeremy Pudding, and adopts the surname Plubm-Pudding. > > When _ **the couple** _ together conjoins their surname (as, for example, when to only children marry and wish to continue both family names), the custom seems to be for the bridegroom’s surname to lead: Henry Thorsen IV marries Dorothy Vanderrijn, and they decide to become Henry and Dorothy Thorsen-Vanderrijn. I agree that this is the traditional practice. However, it seems that in America at least, we’re going through a period in which everything is up for grabs, really. ---
**Author:** ![Swallowed\_My\_Cellphone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@Swallowed\_My\_Cellphone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Swallowed_My_Cellphone)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2009, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hyphenated-last-names-womans-name-first/497773/31 "2009-05-28T14:04:56Z")
> [@Weedy](#): > > My aunt & her husband hyphenated their names when they got married. The husband’s name came first. When my fiancee and I discussed the possibility of changing our names post-marriage (ultimately decided neither of us with change our names, and actually we may not get married after all because, but that’s another thread), we came very close to deciding that my name would be hyphenated with her last name first, and hers would be hyphenated with my last name first. That way, our “final” last names would still be our original names. ---
**Author:** ![MamaMurphy-Kennedy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ee7513/32.png) [@MamaMurphy-Kennedy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MamaMurphy-Kennedy)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2014, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hyphenated-last-names-womans-name-first/497773/32 "2014-07-08T17:18:10Z")
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > Hyphenated names seem to me to be yet another way of foisting off difficult choices onto our children. This isn’t true of everyone, though…I have a daughter from a previous relationship, and I don’t plan on changing her name when I get married, so I am hyphenating to make the transition a little less confusing…so I can explain that I’m still a Murphy, but now everyone knows that I’m married to Daddy (She’s two and a half, but we don’t plan on getting married until she’s old enough to sit through the whole ceremony; she already knows him as Daddy). Makes life a LOT easier to hyphenate, and I’m not foisting the choice off on her, she stays a Murphy. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Private\_Public](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3ab097/32.png) [@Private\_Public](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Private_Public)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2014, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hyphenated-last-names-womans-name-first/497773/33 "2014-07-08T21:36:13Z")
Me and the wife talked about this when we got married. Does she drop her maiden name and take mine? Do I take hers? She has a pretty kickass last name. What we decided was this… She hyphenates both last names, her last name first then mine. She did this mainly for professional reasons. That and it would be a pain to do all the legal change of name stuff. We decided any kids we have, will have my last name only. Our kid seems fine with that, not like she was given a choice though. ---
**Author:** ![johnpost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f17d59/32.png) [@johnpost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/johnpost)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2014, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hyphenated-last-names-womans-name-first/497773/34 "2014-07-08T22:22:26Z")
zombie or no if one partner hyphenates and the other keeps their name then if the hyphenee uses the other’s first then they will alphabetize together. if they both hyphenate then keeping the same order will alphabetize together. ---
**Author:** ![Omar\_Little](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omar_little/32/269_2.png) [@Omar\_Little](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar_Little)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2014, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hyphenated-last-names-womans-name-first/497773/35 "2014-07-09T15:18:59Z")
In this day and age, people just do whatever the hell they want. If you are looking towards tradition for your solution, then the wife **traditionally** takes the last name of her husband, and all the children use the paternal surname. Alternative traditions are kind of oxymoronic. ---
**Author:** ![jtur88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e9c0ed/32.png) [@jtur88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jtur88)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2014, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hyphenated-last-names-womans-name-first/497773/36 "2014-07-09T15:38:01Z")
I don’t even think it is obligatory for the bride to assume the groom’s surname, even if a stand-alone name is chosen. It may vary by state, but in Canada, the couple may choose either stand-alone surname to be their legal name. It is rare for them to choose the bride’s last name, but it can be done simply by a declaration at the time of marriage. In Canada, about 20% of all married couples choose to keep their separate names. When a women with a hyphenated name marries and choose, with her husband, to hyphenate their name, which name takes priority and carries to the next generation? If a couple hyphenates their name with the woman’s name first, and their daughter marries and also hyphenates her name with her mother’s name first (dropping her father’s name), does that create a de-facto matrilinear naming culture? ---
**Author:** ![bob\_2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bob_2/32/3341_2.png) [@bob\_2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bob_2)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2014, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hyphenated-last-names-womans-name-first/497773/37 "2014-07-09T15:38:38Z")
> [@SanVito](#): > > Actually I was going to ask about this. In the UK I find it much more common for professional women to continue to use their maiden name for work purposes and their husband’s name for private purposes (e.g. Cherie Booth/Blair, Tony Blair’s wife). It’s also very common for the wife to just keep her own name for all purposes (in which case, the children would ‘normally’ take the husband’s name). I was going to say pretty much the same thing. When I worked in a hospital, there were two pairs of married doctors where the ladies kept their maiden names. I asked one about it, and she just pointed at the set of certificates on her office wall; all obtained before she got married. Double barrelled names in the UK are seen as a bit pretentious. ---
**Author:** ![KarlGrenze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dbc845/32.png) [@KarlGrenze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGrenze)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2014, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hyphenated-last-names-womans-name-first/497773/38 "2014-07-09T15:47:35Z")
> [@Omar\_Little](#): > > In this day and age, people just do whatever the hell they want. > > If you are looking towards tradition for your solution, then the wife **traditionally** takes the last name of her husband, and all the children use the paternal surname. > > Alternative traditions are kind of oxymoronic. Of course, that depends on the culture. In many cultures, the tradition is that the woman does not take the last name of the husband, but keeps the one(s) she grew up with. What surname(s) their kids get varies by culture and tradition. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2014, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hyphenated-last-names-womans-name-first/497773/39 "2014-07-10T00:30:09Z")
> [@KarlGrenze](#): > > So that’s why they keep putting my second last name as my first last name when addressing me! When I work with people whose first languages don’t include Spanish or Portuguese, I always give only my first lastname. That one is three words, with the structure Commonlastname from Place, normally abbreviated to Commonlastname except for contracts and ID; German speakers have serious trouble accepting that there are spaces in there, I can’t use auto-check-in machines for Lufthansa or Swiss because my passport “doesn’t match” what their computer has. My current client (English) used LinkedIn to check me up, so even though the name the agent had given them was Nava Commonlastname from Place, they’d set me up everywhere as Nava Secondlastname. At least they were able to correct it in email and so forth, but I didn’t know whether to laugh or cry at my manager’s explanation that Secondlastname “is actually her middle name”. I swear over my ancestors’ graves that it’s not. ---
**Author:** ![KarlGrenze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dbc845/32.png) [@KarlGrenze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGrenze)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2014, 9:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hyphenated-last-names-womans-name-first/497773/40 "2014-07-10T09:13:09Z")
**Nava** , you’re quoting me from something 5 years ago, and the sad thing is, it still happens! When I applied to the new job, yes, of course, I had to submit the paperwork with my full name. After all, this was a foreign place, and they also wanted to know what my name was in my birth certificate and passport and all that. When I introduced myself, I used either both last names, or shortened to the first last name. But it didn’t matter because then they all saw my written application, saw that I had two last names, and proceeded to call me by my second last name. _Sigh_ And to add insult to injury, they misspelled that last name when setting up my work account. My email has my full name, but even that one has my second last name misspelled. Way to go IT, way to go. And my attempts to fix it have been fruitless. The weird thing is, it would be such an easy thing to fix. And it results with half of my coworkers calling me by one last name, and the other half calling me by another one. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hyphenated-last-names-womans-name-first/497773.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hyphenated-last-names-womans-name-first/497773.md?page=3)