# Hypnagogia = Voices of the Dead? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 24, 2009, 10:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypnagogia-voices-of-the-dead/500818 "2009-06-24T10:39:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![ashman165](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8e8cbc/32.png) [@ashman165](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ashman165)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2009, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypnagogia-voices-of-the-dead/500818/41 "2009-06-24T17:40:30Z")
> [@KGS](#): > > No, I’m willing to be open-minded about _possibilities_, rather than dismissing any theory that can’t be tested and repeated in a scientific method experiment. Not all sciences depend on the scientific method, by the way – paleontology, anthropology, archaeology, etc. Even the Theory of Evolution is inherently non-falsifiable, but all scientists agree that evolution IS a valid science. Huh? Who has lied to you? > [@KGS](#): > > No problem. I enjoy ranting. 🆒 > > Believe? Where did I say that I believe the voices are ghosts? I never said that – I’m just speculating, that’s all. Well, weren’t we talking about a precedent in terms of the dead talking to you? Or am I confusing your claims with someone else’s in this thread? > [@KGS](#): > > I’ve communicated with the dead at least once, maybe twice. So spirits & ghosts do notice me, when I notice them. There is precedence for that. What find I most interesting here is that their ability to notice you is somehow contingent on your choosing to notice them. These surely are some very deferential creatures you have. I’m slightly jealous. I suppose you didn’t claim that they communicate with you; only that you communicate with them. But one wonders if they don’t communicate back, aren’t you just kind of talking to yourself? ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2009, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypnagogia-voices-of-the-dead/500818/42 "2009-06-24T17:42:26Z")
> [@KGS](#): > > (Please no snide remarks about how spirits/voices don’t exist…let’s keep an open mind here, people.) Let’s debate what the result of 2 + 2 is. (No snide remarks about the answer being 4…let’s keep an open mind here, people.) ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2009, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypnagogia-voices-of-the-dead/500818/43 "2009-06-24T17:45:33Z")
> [@KGS](#): > > Because I’ve seen what the God Delusion does to people. And people who listen to voices in their heads never harm anyone. > **[David Berkowitz](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Berkowitz)** > > David Richard Berkowitz (born Richard David Falco; June 1, 1953), also known as the Son of Sam and the .44 Caliber Killer, is an American serial killer and former U.S. Army soldier who committed a stabbing and a series of shootings between 1975 and 1977 in New York City, killing six people and wounding eleven others. Armed with a .44 Special caliber Bulldog revolver during most of his crimes, he terrorized New Yorkers with many letters mocking the police and promising further crimes, leading... ---
**Author:** ![meenie7](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7993a0/32.png) [@meenie7](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/meenie7)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2009, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypnagogia-voices-of-the-dead/500818/44 "2009-06-24T17:53:17Z")
I really don’t get why some people in this thread are acting as though hearing voices as part of hypnogogia is indicative of mental illness. Hypnogogia is a state between waking and sleeping, where you can have dream-like experiences, with no craziness or paranormal stuff necessary to explain them. So, the mere fact that KGS hears voices when he’s drifting to sleep doesn’t mean anything about his mental state – it’s perfectly normal and explicable. As for the idea he advances about the voices being the voices of dead people, of course there’s no way to know. But I will say that maintaining a world view where a consensus of scientists has to approve a given proposition before it can be discussed without ridicule is pretty sad. Everyone has (or should have, anyway) their own little odd beliefs and ideas. Suggesting psychiatric intervention for everyone who doesn’t fall in line with the Official Line of Thought ™ is a pretty oppressive idea. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2009, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypnagogia-voices-of-the-dead/500818/45 "2009-06-24T18:04:25Z")
> [@The\_Hamster\_King](#): > > Why do you think it’s the dead speaking to you? It could be: > > [ul] > [li]God[/li][li]Satan[/li][li]Angels[/li][li]Aliens[/li][li]Government agents[/li][li]Psychics[/li][/ul] > There are a number of potential sources of these voices. How did you eliminate the other alternatives? I’m shocked that you of all posters would miss the obvious: couldn’t it be hamsters? It’s certainly conceivable that hamsters have developed telepathic powers and the ability to communicate in English. And that would explain the mysterious message **KGS** received. A neighbor’s hamster was on the exercise wheel when her owner turned off the bedroom lights. Hamsters aren’t familiar with light switch technology (really, let’s be sensible here, how would they know what a light switch was?), and so for a moment, the hamster thought the world had disappeared. It may sound far-fetched, but at least hamsters are alive. It’s a lot more plausible than the idea that a dead person is communicating. ---
**Author:** ![ashman165](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8e8cbc/32.png) [@ashman165](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ashman165)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2009, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypnagogia-voices-of-the-dead/500818/46 "2009-06-24T18:10:52Z")
> [@meenie7](#): > > But I will say that maintaining a world view where a consensus of scientists has to approve a given proposition before it can be discussed without ridicule is pretty sad. Claptrap. This sounds more like you have to believe what scientists believe just because they believe it. One is forced to ask why the scientists overwhelming _accept_ (not believe) in a particular scientific theory. Now, if you’re talking about scientists’ beliefs in their personal life, then those beliefs deserve the same treatment as anyone else’s stupid ideas. But, in those situations, they aren’t scientists qua scientists. They’re just people who have some odd myth they want to believe. ---
**Author:** ![meenie7](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7993a0/32.png) [@meenie7](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/meenie7)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2009, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypnagogia-voices-of-the-dead/500818/47 "2009-06-24T18:16:45Z")
> [@ashman165](#): > > Claptrap. This sounds more like you have to believe what scientists believe just because they believe it. One is forced to ask why the scientists overwhelming _accept_ (not believe) in a particular scientific theory. They accept it because the current state of science says that’s what is objectively found through experimentation. But, taking that as the one and only standard of what is true seems a little shaky to me, especially when the immediate jump seems to be “You don’t accept what the science says, therefore you’re mentally ill.” That seems like a canyon-sized jump, is all I’m saying. ---
**Author:** ![KGS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/90ced4/32.png) [@KGS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KGS)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2009, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypnagogia-voices-of-the-dead/500818/48 "2009-06-24T18:18:46Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > And people who listen to voices in their heads never harm anyone. It’s okay to listen. But you should never obey. That’s the problem with God, and believers in the God Voice. The God Voice demands obedience, compliance, supplication, no freedom of thought allowed. Just look at the story of Abraham & Isaac…God was a voice in Abraham’s head, who told him to MURDER his firstborn son. Would you do that? C’mon, a poll for believers in God (including you, **kanicbird** , get yer ass back in here) – if God told you to kill your own child, would you? If not kill, would you humiliate and torture them, if God demanded? Would you make them feel stupid? Would you, say, commit them a mental institution, on completely specious grounds, just because you wanted to do a favor for your “good” son? (Just speculating, of course…) Would you? Because I know at least one Delusional God Believer who would, and has, and feels no guilt or shame about it, and seems to actually enjoy it. Not saying who, of course…but if there’s at least one, there must be hundreds, thousands of God Believers out there, who listen to the God Voice, and obeyed. Are you one of them? By the way, hypnogogic voices do not tell me to do anything. They just babble, say funny stuff, and occasionally throw a curve ball now and then. It’s actually quite fun. And you can tell they are safe voices, because if you get bored and don’t want to hear them anymore, simply turn on the lights and they vanish instantly, like cockroaches scattering. The God Voice is much, much harder to destroy. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2009, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypnagogia-voices-of-the-dead/500818/49 "2009-06-24T18:19:11Z")
> [@KGS](#): > > But that’s okay – if God’s a psychopath, then he’s also a liar. Which means, there must exist a power BEYOND God. Discover that power, and bind yourself to _that_ power’s will, and the God Delusion can no longer torment you. Trust me, it works…but it _does_ require some effort to achieve. Bwuh? Being a psychopath makes you a liar? And, somehow, the existence of a liar means that there must be some power “beyond” the liar?? What the heck? 😕 You were doing so well, too - thre are many simple ways to argue that either God (as presented) is a liar, or God (as presented) is a dick, or God (as presented) doesn’t exist. But you kind of went off the rails trying to leap to the conclusion that there’s a benevolent power _beyond_ God (as presented). (Fortunately we don’t need any such thing to shed ourself of the “God delusion”; we just need to completely stop beleiving in it.) As for these voices of yours, have you ruled out the possibility that you have an overactive imagination? Perhaps lodged somewhere in your subconscious. Because unless you’ve talked your ghosts into telling you something new and unguessable (preferably something convenient like leading you to buried treasure), there’s no reason whatsoever to think that your brain isn’t just obliging your desire to have a conversation with something unknown. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2009, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypnagogia-voices-of-the-dead/500818/50 "2009-06-24T18:20:28Z")
> [@meenie7](#): > > But I will say that maintaining a world view where a consensus of scientists has to approve a given proposition before it can be discussed without ridicule is pretty sad. Everyone has (or should have, anyway) their own little odd beliefs and ideas. Suggesting psychiatric intervention for everyone who doesn’t fall in line with the Official Line of Thought ™ is a pretty oppressive idea. That is not what science.is. My beliefs are not based on blind acceptance of what scientists tell me to believe. I believe claims that are supported by credible evidence, and I decide what is credible and what is not. ---
**Author:** ![KGS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/90ced4/32.png) [@KGS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KGS)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2009, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypnagogia-voices-of-the-dead/500818/51 "2009-06-24T18:22:19Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > As for these voices of yours, have you ruled out the possibility that you have an overactive imagination? Of course not. In fact, I’m convinced 99.9% is just that…imagination. It’s that 0.1%, the ones that _seem_ to come from elsewhere, that make it especially interesting. 🆒 Really, I pity all of you who can’t let your imagination run wild… ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2009, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypnagogia-voices-of-the-dead/500818/52 "2009-06-24T18:25:43Z")
> [@yorick73](#): > > Why be angry about something you don’t believe in? I don’t believe in the innate superiority of the Aryan race. Nonetheless, Nazis still piss me off. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2009, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypnagogia-voices-of-the-dead/500818/53 "2009-06-24T18:27:08Z")
> [@KGS](#): > > Really, I pity all of you who can’t let your imagination run wild… I mean no offense, but there is a difference between letting your imagination wild and letting it out of your control. I’m perfectly happy simply having to imagine voices rather than my imagination forcing voices on me - if that calls for your pity, then I suppose i’m happy being pitiable. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2009, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypnagogia-voices-of-the-dead/500818/54 "2009-06-24T18:29:39Z")
> [@meenie7](#): > > They accept it because the current state of science says that’s what is objectively found through experimentation. But, taking that as the one and only standard of what is true seems a little shaky to me, especially when the immediate jump seems to be “You don’t accept what the science says, therefore you’re mentally ill.” That seems like a canyon-sized jump, is all I’m saying. Dunno about anyone else, but I don’t think holding opinions that deviate from the scientific core knowledge base is a sign of mental illness. I myself believe that I like the taste of strawberries, which science doesn’t say a thing about - and a bit more relevently sometimes I become certain that my computer is deliberately trying to piss me off, which is really quite stupid if you think about it. I also think that beleiving things that are explicitly contraindicated by scientific research is not a sign of _mentall illness_, persay - I mean, that’s a pretty harsh label to slap on somebody. Such people probably qualify as “imaginative” or “creative”, though - and certainly flirt with simply being _wrong_ on the subject. On the other hand, if such people think for one instant that anybody else should take their unique and unsupported theories seriously, or even give their opinions (or themselves when they state such opinions) a shred of respect - now that, _that_ is just nuts! ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2009, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypnagogia-voices-of-the-dead/500818/55 "2009-06-24T18:31:51Z")
> [@KGS](#): > > Really, I pity all of you who can’t let your imagination run wild… Oh, I can let my imagination run wild. It could also be your unborn twin, whom you absorbed in the womb, desperately trying to communicate with you. It could also be demons speaking to you. It could also be the bored gamer who created you in a game of SIMS v389, randomly plugging voices in to see what you’ll do. It could be that you’re the voice in someone else’s head, and they’re wondering why they’re hearing you. Should I continue? ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2009, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypnagogia-voices-of-the-dead/500818/56 "2009-06-24T18:39:17Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > It could be that you’re the voice in someone else’s head, and they’re wondering why they’re hearing you. I keep hearing - well, _seeing_ these strange voices. On a message board, even! And weirdly, they actually _do_ tell me things I don’t know. Must be ghosts. Gotta be. It may not be the only possible explanation - but it’s among the funner ones! ---
**Author:** ![meenie7](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7993a0/32.png) [@meenie7](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/meenie7)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2009, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypnagogia-voices-of-the-dead/500818/57 "2009-06-24T18:39:45Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > On the other hand, if such people think for one instant that anybody else should take their unique and unsupported theories seriously, or even give their opinions (or themselves when they state such opinions) a shred of respect - now that, _that_ is just nuts! What I don’t understand, though, is that if you don’t agree, or you think the idea is silly and don’t like that he isn’t inviting a debate with both sides, then why can’t you just ignore the thread? There are a lot of people who I think are completely lost in space but I don’t feel a need to come into their threads and denigrate them about it, or to imply that they are unworthy of respect because they have an opinion you think is silly. (Hint: Everyone you know has some belief or idea you would think is silly. Does that mean you don’t respect anyone, if they have the temerity to not keep their mouth shut?) ---
**Author:** ![KGS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/90ced4/32.png) [@KGS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KGS)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2009, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypnagogia-voices-of-the-dead/500818/58 "2009-06-24T18:42:32Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > I mean no offense, but there is a difference between letting your imagination wild and letting it out of your control. I’m perfectly happy simply having to imagine voices rather than my imagination forcing voices on me. Exactly. The God Voice is a forced voice, a schizophrenic voice. The voices I’m talking about – the fun voices – aren’t forced at all. They’re just…there. And just _might_ be dead people. 🆒 > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Should I continue? Sure, knock yourself out. ---
**Author:** ![ashman165](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8e8cbc/32.png) [@ashman165](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ashman165)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2009, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypnagogia-voices-of-the-dead/500818/59 "2009-06-24T18:47:55Z")
> [@meenie7](#): > > They accept it because the current state of science says that’s what is objectively found through experimentation. But, taking that as the one and only standard of what is true seems a little shaky to me, especially when the immediate jump seems to be “You don’t accept what the science says, therefore you’re mentally ill.” That seems like a canyon-sized jump, is all I’m saying. I haven’t seen that claim made anywhere though. Thus why I’m confused. I suppose if someone had said, “if you don’t accept only mainstream science on a topic about which science has no say, then you’re fucking crazy”, you’d have a point. No one in this thread has suggested as much. Moreover, it’s worth noting that science has _nothing_ to say about the supernatural anyway, considering that science deals with examining the natural world by natural means. But I would posit that anyone who rejects, let’s say, the idea that objects fall towards more massive bodies is a bit touched. Fortunately, these people sometimes lob themselves off of buildings thus reducing their likelihood of contaminating the gene pool. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2009, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypnagogia-voices-of-the-dead/500818/60 "2009-06-24T18:50:27Z")
> [@KGS](#): > > Exactly. The God Voice is a forced voice, a schizophrenic voice. > > The voices I’m talking about – the fun voices – aren’t forced at all. They’re just…there. And by what basis are you making this claim? Certainly the voices talking to David Berkowitz weren’t fun voices. Are you saying only the happy fun voices are real; all the mean, angry voices are fake? Why would this be? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypnagogia-voices-of-the-dead/500818.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypnagogia-voices-of-the-dead/500818.md?page=4)