# Hypnagogia = Voices of the Dead? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 24, 2009, 10:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypnagogia-voices-of-the-dead/500818 "2009-06-24T10:39:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2009, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypnagogia-voices-of-the-dead/500818/61 "2009-06-24T18:52:05Z")
> [@meenie7](#): > > What I don’t understand, though, is that if you don’t agree, or you think the idea is silly and don’t like that he isn’t inviting a debate with both sides, then why can’t you just ignore the thread? There are a lot of people who I think are completely lost in space but I don’t feel a need to come into their threads and denigrate them about it, or to imply that they are unworthy of respect because they have an opinion you think is silly. (Hint: Everyone you know has some belief or idea you would think is silly. Does that mean you don’t respect anyone, if they have the temerity to not keep their mouth shut?) He who openeth a thread in Great Debates supposing a controversial supposition beggeth for persons to pointeth out it is controversial, with all the respect and tolerance a biped can expect from the internet at large. You might as well ask why he didn’t refrain from opening the thread, as to ask why we don’t refrain from responding in it. And my respect for a person, or at least a segment of my respect, fluctuates wildly in response to their actions of the exact moment. So yeah - if somebody says something dumb, then I will, for a moment, think accordingly less of their cognitive, argumentive, speechifying, or grammatical acumen. But then I am a bit hypercritical that way (though not _hypo_critical - when I say something ridiculous - that’s ridiculous too). ---
**Author:** ![meenie7](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7993a0/32.png) [@meenie7](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/meenie7)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2009, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypnagogia-voices-of-the-dead/500818/62 "2009-06-24T18:56:01Z")
> [@ashman165](#): > > I haven’t seen that claim made anywhere though. Thus why I’m confused. I suppose if someone had said, “if you don’t accept only mainstream science on a topic about which science has no say, then you’re fucking crazy”, you’d have a point. > > No one in this thread has suggested as much. Moreover, it’s worth noting that science has _nothing_ to say about the supernatural anyway, considering that science deals with examining the natural world by natural means. Exactly, it has nothing to say about it. But why does it necessarily seem to follow for people in this sort of thread that if science has nothing to say about it, it doesn’t exist? Begbert2 earlier gave the example that he likes the taste of strawberries, and there’s no scientific basis for it. And if he started a thread saying he liked strawberries, no one would get on his case for it not being a scientific assertion. So why do people pick on the supernatural stuff so much, then, when there are many things outside the realm of objective findings? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2009, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypnagogia-voices-of-the-dead/500818/63 "2009-06-24T18:57:02Z")
> [@KGS](#): > > Sure, knock yourself out. Ooh, maybe you did, and maybe as you’re unconscious you’re hallucinating these voices! Or maybe, I knocked MYself out, and I’m just hallucinating this entire thread! Or maybe the dust mites who live on your skin have joined their voices together in chorus, a la _Horton Hears a Who_. ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2009, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypnagogia-voices-of-the-dead/500818/64 "2009-06-24T18:59:38Z")
> [@Revtim](#): > > Let’s debate what the result of 2 + 2 is. > > (No snide remarks about the answer being 4…let’s keep an open mind here, people.) 2 + 2 can equal 5, if you use [very large values for 2](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/1382/does-2-2-5-for-very-large-values-of-2). (Sorry, couldn’t resist.) ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2009, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypnagogia-voices-of-the-dead/500818/65 "2009-06-24T19:06:26Z")
> [@KGS](#): > > Exactly. The God Voice is a forced voice, a schizophrenic voice. > > The voices I’m talking about – the fun voices – aren’t forced at all. They’re just…there. Well, i’m confused. I would define “forced” in this instance to mean that they aren’t the result of you deliberately choosing to imagine them, but as apparently from entirely outside and not a result of your thinking process at all. That you do not hear them because you choose to imagine them - that you have no ability to not hear them if you don’t want to. That seems to be an accurate summation of your voices, at least as I gather so far - have I misunderstood, or do you have a different definition of “forced”? ---
**Author:** ![KGS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/90ced4/32.png) [@KGS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KGS)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2009, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypnagogia-voices-of-the-dead/500818/66 "2009-06-24T19:19:09Z")
Okay, wait. We are confusing voices with voices with voices here. Hypnagogic voices _only_ exist in that twilight world between wakefulness and sleep. That’s what this debate was SUPPOSED to be about…I don’t know who brought up the schizophrenic voices, such as God’s Voice. Schizophrenia, so I’m told, often involves hearing voices which DO NOT GO AWAY. That’s the different. They are there, ever present, always annoying you. You can try and medicate them away, or meditate them away, but sometimes that doesn’t even work. Those are the Berkowitz voices…the voices that tell you to do bad things. God’s Voice is basically the same as schizophrenia, except it’s not always as demanding. God’s Voice may command, but also seduces, leads you astray, makes you do stupid ass things. Most people actually _enjoy_ the God Voice – that’s what makes it God. I don’t know many schizophrenics who enjoy the schizo voices, but some of them do. How do you tell the difference? Simple – if the voices stop when you turn on the lights or merely open your eyes, that’s hypnagogia. Totally natural and normal. If the voice continues, it may be a spirit or ghost, so say “GET OUT!” if you don’t want it there. If it leaves, good, it was only a spirit. If neither of those work…hie thee to a psychiatrist, pronto! If you are unwilling to do any of these things and choose to OBEY and WORSHIP the voice…then it’s God’s Voice, and you are on your own, bucko. Enjoy your own private hell. ---
**Author:** ![KGS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/90ced4/32.png) [@KGS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KGS)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2009, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypnagogia-voices-of-the-dead/500818/67 "2009-06-24T19:22:51Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > Well, i’m confused. I would define “forced” in this instance to mean that they aren’t the result of you deliberately choosing to imagine them, but as apparently from entirely outside and not a result of your thinking process at all. That you do not hear them because you choose to imagine them - that you have no ability to not hear them if you don’t want to. That seems to be an accurate summation of your voices, at least as I gather so far - have I misunderstood, or do you have a different definition of “forced”? Well, “forced” implies that you can’t get rid of them. Are you trying to say that _every_ audible voice (with no obvious source) is bad? (Sigh.) Look, [here](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypnagogia#Sounds): > [@](#): > > _Hypnagogic imagery is often auditory or has an auditory component. Like the visuals, hypnagogic sounds vary in intensity from faint impressions to loud noises, such as crashes and bangs (exploding head syndrome). People may imagine their own name called or a doorbell ringing. Snatches of imagined speech are common. While typically nonsensical and fragmented, these speech events can occasionally strike the individual as apt comments on – or summations of – their thoughts at the time. They often contain word play, neologisms and made-up names. Hypnagogic speech may manifest as the subject’s own ‘inner voice’, or as the voices of others: familiar people or strangers. More rarely, poetry or music is heard._ ---
**Author:** ![ashman165](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8e8cbc/32.png) [@ashman165](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ashman165)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2009, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypnagogia-voices-of-the-dead/500818/68 "2009-06-24T19:25:34Z")
> [@meenie7](#): > > Exactly, it has nothing to say about it. But why does it necessarily seem to follow for people in this sort of thread that if science has nothing to say about it, it doesn’t exist? Begbert2 earlier gave the example that he likes the taste of strawberries, and there’s no scientific basis for it. And if he started a thread saying he liked strawberries, no one would get on his case for it not being a scientific assertion. So why do people pick on the supernatural stuff so much, then, when there are many things outside the realm of objective findings? Well, um, I guess my best response is: did you read the OP? Since KGS brought it up with respect to science, it’s properly a part of the discussion. If someone started a conversation with something like, “Scientifically, strawberries taste the best” then it would be a proper topic. If he just said “I like strawberries best”, then who can argue with that? But that’s not what happened in this case, so the analogue fails. ---
**Author:** ![ashman165](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8e8cbc/32.png) [@ashman165](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ashman165)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2009, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypnagogia-voices-of-the-dead/500818/69 "2009-06-24T19:26:35Z")
> [@KGS](#): > > Schizophrenia, so I’m told, often involves hearing voices which DO NOT GO AWAY. That’s the different. They are there, ever present, always annoying you. You can try and medicate them away, or meditate them away, but sometimes that doesn’t even work. Those are the Berkowitz voices…the voices that tell you to do bad things. Again, who lied to you? ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2009, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypnagogia-voices-of-the-dead/500818/70 "2009-06-24T19:26:42Z")
> [@KGS](#): > > Okay, wait. We are confusing voices with voices with voices here. > > Hypnagogic voices _only_ exist in that twilight world between wakefulness and sleep. That’s what this debate was SUPPOSED to be about…I don’t know who brought up the schizophrenic voices, such as God’s Voice. Then I don’t understand what you’re proposing for debate. By definition “hypnagogic voices” are figments of your imagination. Otherwise you have to strip the hypnagogic part out of there and state that dead people speak to you when you are not quite awake but not quite asleep. Then we can all wrap it back up with … don’t fret, dude, it’s just hypnagogia! And I can’t tell you how much I’m enjoying saying Hypnagogia and all its iterations. It’s hypnogotastic! ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2009, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypnagogia-voices-of-the-dead/500818/71 "2009-06-24T19:31:33Z")
> [@KGS](#): > > Well, “forced” implies that you can’t get rid of them. Are you trying to say that _every_ audible voice (with no obvious source) is bad? (Sigh.) Yeah, pretty much, if only for the “can’t get rid of them” part, as an ongoing affair. You may take steps at the time to get rid of them, but you can’t stop them from coming back. I mean, it’s like saying your finger hurts if you hold it a certain way. That you can _not_ hold it that way and it stops doesn’t mean there’s nothing bad about it. ---
**Author:** ![Shark\_Sandwich](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f04885/32.png) [@Shark\_Sandwich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shark_Sandwich)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2009, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypnagogia-voices-of-the-dead/500818/72 "2009-06-24T19:40:12Z")
> [@KGS](#): > > I don’t know many schizophrenics who enjoy the schizo voices, but some of them do. This could be very telling. How many schizophrenics do you know? ---
**Author:** ![KGS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/90ced4/32.png) [@KGS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KGS)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2009, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypnagogia-voices-of-the-dead/500818/73 "2009-06-24T19:59:54Z")
> [@Shark\_Sandwich](#): > > How many schizophrenics do you know? At the moment? None. But I’ve rubbed shoulders with them, even roomed with them, because I was forced to believe I was one of them. I’m not, I never was, and even the schizos and bipolars felt I never belonged there. That was a label forced on me by parents who were (with the aid of evil, money-grubbing shrinks) covering up family secrets, or maybe they just wanted to control and humiliate me, or simply enjoy the sympathy from others in munchausen-by-proxy fashion. Whatever, it doesn’t matter anymore. I got their number now, and I’m on a freakin’ mission. In fact, the reason I started this thread was really to distract myself because I’m currently waiting on an email which will – well, frankly, this could be really big. Don’t wanna jinx it, except to say that if things work out, as I hope they will, pretty soon EVERYONE will know the family secrets my folks tried so hard to suppress and ignore…albeit in a fictional sense, if you catch my drift? 😉 Really, I’m kind of excited. I guess this thread kinda got pretty far off the rails, but hey, what else is new. A mod can close it, if they want. ---
**Author:** ![Mosier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ea924/32.png) [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2009, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypnagogia-voices-of-the-dead/500818/74 "2009-06-24T20:08:25Z")
> [@meenie7](#): > > I really don’t get why some people in this thread are acting as though hearing voices as part of hypnogogia is indicative of mental illness. Hypnogogia is a state between waking and sleeping, where you can have dream-like experiences, with no craziness or paranormal stuff necessary to explain them. So, the mere fact that KGS hears voices when he’s drifting to sleep doesn’t mean anything about his mental state – it’s perfectly normal and explicable. > > As for the idea he advances about the voices being the voices of dead people, of course there’s no way to know. But I will say that maintaining a world view where a consensus of scientists has to approve a given proposition before it can be discussed without ridicule is pretty sad. Everyone has (or should have, anyway) their own little odd beliefs and ideas. Suggesting psychiatric intervention for everyone who doesn’t fall in line with the Official Line of Thought ™ is a pretty oppressive idea. How in the world can you go about life with such a philosophy? How do you decide what is worthy of serious discussion? Or do you even make that decision at all? Can you think of any situations where you would dismiss a claim or observation out of hand? Why not the OP’s claim? What is more ridiculous and worthy of ridicule than someone who is seriously contemplating the idea he’s communicating with the dead? ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2009, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypnagogia-voices-of-the-dead/500818/75 "2009-06-24T20:17:00Z")
> [@KGS](#): > > Could [auditory hypnagogia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypnagogia) be actual voices from the recently deceased? I know, science believes it’s just your own brain talking to yourself, but…do we really know for sure? After all, science is changing all the time. Well, science doesn’t believe anything at all. And it most certainly is not changing all the time. This may be the source of your confusion. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2009, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypnagogia-voices-of-the-dead/500818/76 "2009-06-24T20:26:36Z")
> [@KGS](#): > > It’s okay to listen. But you should never obey. That’s the problem with God, and believers in the God Voice. > > If not kill, would you humiliate and torture them, if God demanded? > > Would you make them feel stupid? > > Would you, say, commit them a mental institution, on completely specious grounds, just because you wanted to do a favor for your “good” son? (Just speculating, of course…) > > Would you? Because I know at least one Delusional God Believer who would, and has, and feels no guilt or shame about it, and seems to actually enjoy it. Not saying who, of course… Using my psychic powers, I detect parental issues behind your distain for the God Voice. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2009, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypnagogia-voices-of-the-dead/500818/77 "2009-06-24T20:46:31Z")
> [@KGS](#): > > Okay, wait. We are confusing voices with voices with voices here. > > Hypnagogic voices _only_ exist in that twilight world between wakefulness and sleep. That’s what this debate was SUPPOSED to be about…I don’t know who brought up the schizophrenic voices, such as God’s Voice. > > Schizophrenia, so I’m told, often involves hearing voices which DO NOT GO AWAY. That’s the different. They are there, ever present, always annoying you. You can try and medicate them away, or meditate them away, but sometimes that doesn’t even work. Those are the Berkowitz voices…the voices that tell you to do bad things. > > God’s Voice is basically the same as schizophrenia, except it’s not always as demanding. God’s Voice may command, but also seduces, leads you astray, makes you do stupid ass things. Most people actually _enjoy_ the God Voice – that’s what makes it God. I don’t know many schizophrenics who enjoy the schizo voices, but some of them do. > > How do you tell the difference? Simple – if the voices stop when you turn on the lights or merely open your eyes, that’s hypnagogia. Totally natural and normal. > > If the voice continues, it may be a spirit or ghost, so say “GET OUT!” if you don’t want it there. If it leaves, good, it was only a spirit. > > If neither of those work…hie thee to a psychiatrist, pronto! > > If you are unwilling to do any of these things and choose to OBEY and WORSHIP the voice…then it’s God’s Voice, and you are on your own, bucko. Enjoy your own private hell. Okay, now it sounds like you’re laying out a universe summary for a fiction book. Because rather blatantly you’re stating things that you can’t _possibly_ know, as if you knew all about them and their causes as certain facts. Based on _observable_ evidence, you have here one thing, ‘voices’, divided rather arbitrarily into three categories: 1. voices that obligingly go away when you turn on the lights or merely open your eyes. 2. voices that continue when you’re awake, but go away (at least for a while) when you yell “GET OUT!”. 3. voices that simply don’t go away at all. “hypnagogia”, per your own description, is imagined - imagined voices or sounds that occur on the cusp of sleep. Presumably this is the scientific explanation, as typified by its assumption that the explanation that has a mechanism for occuring that has been shown to exist (in this case, your brain) is the default one. If you accept the scientific classification of hypnagogia as “natural and normal” dream-voices that haven’t got the memo that you’re not really asleep, then it naturally follows that you should accept the scientific explanation for non-hypnagogic voices as well - which is to say, that the explanation that has a mechanism for occuring is the correct one. It’s all in your mind, in other words. If you do _not_ accept the scientific assumption for the middle category of voices, it eludes me completely why you don’t reject it for the first and third category of voices as well. Much less why you assert that these delineations exist at all; that “spirits” (which are pretty poorly defined, outside of specific fictions) are assumed to be willing to leave if you yell at them, but are assumed not to be inclined to leave when you turn the lights on. (For the record, I’ve read conceptions of spirits that would fit either one or the other of those criterias.) It seems like a bizarre juxtaposition of science and spiritualism - for this arbitrarily defined slice in the middle, between the lights and the yell, it’s a spirit; outside of that in either direction, you’re imagining it, and should either just lie back and enjoy it or hie thee to a shrink, depending on whether it’s incessantly bothering you or not. There’s no sensible way I can see to reach this conclusion about the rigid delineation between spirits and mental phenomena, either by science _or_ spiritualism, outside of finding or defining an explicit fiction to state and enforce these rules. And for the record, I’ve never heard of a fiction (or religion, if you want to split hairs) that matches these odd rules of yours. So where did you pull these rules out of, again? ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2009, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypnagogia-voices-of-the-dead/500818/78 "2009-06-24T20:48:16Z")
> [@KGS](#): > > Really, I pity all of you who can’t let your imagination run wild… It’s more fun to let your inhibitions run wild, or at least Rod Stewart thought so in his confused way. I must confess that I _have_ heard the voices of the Dead, but was not impressed. They’re a mediocre talent. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2009, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypnagogia-voices-of-the-dead/500818/79 "2009-06-24T21:01:44Z")
Wow. The paths the human mind can take are truly fascinating. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2009, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypnagogia-voices-of-the-dead/500818/80 "2009-06-24T21:22:26Z")
Yeah. Careful not to step in something. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypnagogia-voices-of-the-dead/500818.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypnagogia-voices-of-the-dead/500818.md?page=5)