# Hypnagogia = Voices of the Dead? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 24, 2009, 10:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypnagogia-voices-of-the-dead/500818 "2009-06-24T10:39:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2009, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypnagogia-voices-of-the-dead/500818/81 "2009-06-24T22:17:03Z")
Seems to me if they are the voices of the recently deceased, and the spirit world is not limited by distance (or at least I see no reason it should be), seems to me that the voices one hears would only rarely be in English. It’s only the first language of, what, 7% of the world population? You’re more than twice as likely to hear Mandarin Chinese. In fact, after some mega-disaster like the 2004 Boxing Day Tsunami, with ~230,000 casualties in countries where English is uncommon (well, except India, I guess), I’d expect the Voices of the Dead to be incomprehensible to most listeners in North America. Of course, this assumes the death rates are pretty consistent worldwide. Actually, in the more developed English-speaking countries, it’s quite a bit lower than, say, most of Africa and Asia. For random spirit encounters with the recently deceased, hearing one speak in English would be unusual. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2009, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypnagogia-voices-of-the-dead/500818/82 "2009-06-24T22:49:16Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Seems to me if they are the voices of the recently deceased, and the spirit world is not limited by distance (or at least I see no reason it should be), seems to me that the voices one hears would only rarely be in English. It’s only the first language of, what, 7% of the world population? You’re more than twice as likely to hear Mandarin Chinese. > > In fact, after some mega-disaster like the 2004 Boxing Day Tsunami, with ~230,000 casualties in countries where English is uncommon (well, except India, I guess), I’d expect the Voices of the Dead to be incomprehensible to most listeners in North America. > > Of course, this assumes the death rates are pretty consistent worldwide. Actually, in the more developed English-speaking countries, it’s quite a bit lower than, say, most of Africa and Asia. For random spirit encounters with the recently deceased, hearing one speak in English would be unusual. Again, it depends on the fiction you arbitrarily choose to impose on the ‘spirits’. By another common theory, spirits are tied to the location where they died, or alternatively where they are buried. A person who is not sleeping in the room where somebody has died (or in a graveyard) would hear nothing - and if they _did_ hear someone, it would be the same few someones over and over. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2009, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypnagogia-voices-of-the-dead/500818/83 "2009-06-24T23:16:41Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Seems to me if they are the voices of the recently deceased, and the spirit world is not limited by distance (or at least I see no reason it should be), seems to me that the voices one hears would only rarely be in English. It’s only the first language of, what, 7% of the world population? You’re more than twice as likely to hear Mandarin Chinese. Presumably the dead don’t like to wander very far. But, **KGS** , that give you an easy way to test your hypothesis! Rent a motel room someplace where the dominant language isn’t English. If you still hear English voices when you wake up, it can’t be the voices of the recently deceased! You don’t even have to go overseas. In cities with large ethnic communities like LA or NYC, there are whole neighborhoods that speak languages other than English. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2009, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypnagogia-voices-of-the-dead/500818/84 "2009-06-24T23:17:10Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > By another common theory, spirits are tied to the location where they died, or alternatively where they are buried. A person who is not sleeping in the room where somebody has died (or in a graveyard) would hear nothing - and if they _did_ hear someone, it would be the same few someones over and over. By that logic, it is a wonder people in hospitals get any sleep at all, what with all the coil shuffling that goes on in those places. ---
**Author:** ![Rubystreak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Rubystreak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rubystreak)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2009, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypnagogia-voices-of-the-dead/500818/85 "2009-06-24T23:20:20Z")
> [@meenie7](#): > > Begbert2 earlier gave the example that he likes the taste of strawberries, and there’s no scientific basis for it. And if he started a thread saying he liked strawberries, no one would get on his case for it not being a scientific assertion. So why do people pick on the supernatural stuff so much, then, when there are many things outside the realm of objective findings? Well, see, here’s the problem. There IS a scientific basis for why people like strawberries. They are nutritious and sweet, and our tongues and the neural receptors to which they are connected recognize them as a source of palatable, non-toxic, vitamin-rich calories. Strawberry plants disperse their seeds by creating this tasty little false fruit, so there is an incentive for animals like us to eat them. We have, in fact, cultivated them to be larger and tastier; all the more reason why people like the way they taste. So, you see, liking the taste of strawberries does, in fact, have a basis in science. Now, making a non-factual statement, like “Strawberries are the tastiest fruit” or something equally subjective, would not be fodder for science, but saying that you like strawberries does have a basis in biology. However, if you wanted to discuss strawberries, you’d post in IMHO, or maybe Cafe Society if you wanted recipes. Hell, you might even post in MPSIMS, if all you wanted to do was state that you liked strawberries. It’s certainly not a Great Debate. How does this relate to claiming that hypnagogic voices are actually the voices of the dead? I don’t quite understand your point in making this comparison. I also don’t see the point of scolding people for actually having a debate in Great Debates. If KGS didn’t want a debate, he chose the wrong forum for his thread, wouldn’t you say? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2009, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypnagogia-voices-of-the-dead/500818/86 "2009-06-24T23:22:16Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > Again, it depends on the fiction you arbitrarily choose to impose on the ‘spirits’. By another common theory, spirits are tied to the location where they died, or alternatively where they are buried. Well, then, people who doze off in international airports should hear all kinds of languages. Ditto for people who travel for business or pleasure and frequently stay in hotels in foreign cities. Do American tourists in Berlin hear spirit voices in German? Surely most of the people who have died in or around Berlin over the last ~2000 years have spoken German or its root languages, or the language of various invaders, be it Russian or Roman. Running into a fellow American spirit should be about as likely as running into a fellow American tourist at the bar. Maybe those are the encounters the American is just more likely to remember, since all the locals (dead or alive) and their mumbo-jumbo heathen-talk just blend in together. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2009, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypnagogia-voices-of-the-dead/500818/87 "2009-06-24T23:43:32Z")
> [@The\_Hamster\_King](#): > > Presumably the dead don’t like to wander very far. > > But, **KGS** , that give you an easy way to test your hypothesis! Rent a motel room someplace where the dominant language isn’t English. If you still hear English voices when you wake up, it can’t be the voices of the recently deceased! > > You don’t even have to go overseas. In cities with large ethnic communities like LA or NYC, there are whole neighborhoods that speak languages other than English. Ah, but he could declare that that spirits all speak ‘spirit-talk’, which everyone understands as their own language. Which would handily explain away if, perchance, his local spirit voices talked in english everywhere - even in remote places where nobody has ever died (like the south pole, or the top floor of a new 50-story highrise). Ain’t inventing a fiction great? > [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > By that logic, it is a wonder people in hospitals get any sleep at all, what with all the coil shuffling that goes on in those places. Well, see, by _most_ fictions either most people who shuffle off the coil shuffle completely off to another realm - or most living people aren’t very good at hearing the flesh-impaired, to the degree that most people don’t hear them at all. You know, 'cause otherwise everybody everywhere would be hearing thousands of spirits talking all the time, which the majority of people are fairly sure isn’t actually happening in reality. And really, even if mediums are rare, any well-done fiction would probably _also_ make spirits rare - because otherwise anybody who heard voices when falling asleep would never be able to _get_ to sleep over the cacophony. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2009, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypnagogia-voices-of-the-dead/500818/88 "2009-06-24T23:48:28Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > And really, even if mediums are rare … . Personally, I prefer my mediums well-done. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2009, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypnagogia-voices-of-the-dead/500818/89 "2009-06-25T00:05:09Z")
> [@The\_Hamster\_King](#): > > Personally, I prefer my mediums well-done. Well, if you’d just quoted two more words… 🆒 ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2009, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypnagogia-voices-of-the-dead/500818/90 "2009-06-25T00:07:09Z")
So, are we snide yet? ---
**Author:** ![KGS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/90ced4/32.png) [@KGS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KGS)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2009, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypnagogia-voices-of-the-dead/500818/91 "2009-06-25T02:13:09Z")
> [@Dissonance](#): > > Using my psychic powers, I detect parental issues behind your distain for the God Voice. Hey, I thought the SDMB frowned on cold reading! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Orr\_G](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ee59a6/32.png) [@Orr\_G](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Orr_G)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2009, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypnagogia-voices-of-the-dead/500818/92 "2009-06-25T03:46:06Z")
I’d apologize for the hijack, but it looks like this bus is already well on its way to Cuba. > [@KGS](#): > > In fact, the reason I started this thread was really to distract myself because I’m currently waiting on an email which will – well, frankly, this could be really big. Don’t wanna jinx it, except to say that if things work out, as I hope they will, pretty soon EVERYONE will know the family secrets my folks tried so hard to suppress and ignore…albeit in a fictional sense, if you catch my drift? 😉 Really, I’m kind of excited. This part caught my attention. I hope the e-mail you’re waiting on works out well, or that you at least continue to work for a venue through which you can tell your story. I’m interested in learning more about parents/families who Gaslight their own children. What are the motivations for it? How do the children learn to cope and overcome such a f’d up upbringing? It’s easy enough to find information on the more usual forms of abuse (a la _Toxic Parents_), but not on this rather more difficult to describe form in which the abuses are more subtle and premeditated. So, yeah. Who’s got the Straight Dope on that? ---
**Author:** ![KGS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/90ced4/32.png) [@KGS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KGS)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2009, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypnagogia-voices-of-the-dead/500818/93 "2009-06-25T14:43:54Z")
Okay, how about this: Could some hypnogogic voices actually be the thoughts of other people, or dreaming in synchronicity, etc.? Those kind of thoughts are verifiable – any studies done on that? > [@Orr\_G](#): > > I’m interested in learning more about parents/families who Gaslight their own children. What’s Gaslight? ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2009, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypnagogia-voices-of-the-dead/500818/94 "2009-06-25T15:12:30Z")
> [@KGS](#): > > By the way, hypnogogic voices do not tell me to do anything. They just babble, say funny stuff, and occasionally throw a curve ball now and then. It’s actually quite fun. And you can tell they are safe voices, because if you get bored and don’t want to hear them anymore, simply turn on the lights and they vanish instantly, like cockroaches scattering. The voices are not necessarily God, most likely not God, but God is allowing them. You want to see where it goes, talk to them, encourage them, meditate alone in the room where you hear them. They will get clearer and you will find out why. ---
**Author:** ![Finagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b19c9b/32.png) [@Finagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Finagle)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2009, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypnagogia-voices-of-the-dead/500818/95 "2009-06-25T15:18:10Z")
> [@KGS](#): > > Okay, how about this: > > Could some hypnogogic voices actually be the thoughts of other people, or dreaming in synchronicity, etc.? Those kind of thoughts are verifiable – any studies done on that? Take every single argument against your original speculation and apply it to this one. You can come up with an infinite number of increasingly goofy hypotheses but unless they’re more compelling than the existing explanations for the phenomena, you’re going to have to present much more evidence than “wouldn’t it be cool if”. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2009, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypnagogia-voices-of-the-dead/500818/96 "2009-06-25T15:57:11Z")
DNA allows for untold permutations of how a brain may form and who knows what potential the human mind may have? At one time, gravitational attraction and orbital velocities, etc, were just interesting theories waiting for science to back them up, and dismissing anything about the human brain when we know next to nothing about it, is arrogance of the highest order. And as for sensations or experiences beyond current scientific explanation, how many “normal” people have visited a place or building that has a ‘presence’ that almost takes you back to the time when the building or place was most in use? If we could record a person’s thoughts, you would then have material evidence of an immaterial occurrence, or at least one that occurs on a quantum level, and we all know that strange things are possible when you get down that small. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2009, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypnagogia-voices-of-the-dead/500818/97 "2009-06-25T16:04:24Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > At one time, gravitational attraction and orbital velocities, etc, were just interesting theories waiting for science to back them up, and dismissing anything about the human brain when we know next to nothing about it, is arrogance of the highest order. Gravitational attraction and orbital velocities have _never_ just been theories. Even before humans understood these things, the evidence has always been there. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2009, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypnagogia-voices-of-the-dead/500818/98 "2009-06-25T16:15:30Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > Gravitational attraction and orbital velocities have _never_ just been theories. Even before humans understood these things, the evidence has always been there. How so? You couldn’t just state them without offering some kind of repeatable proof, could you? ---
**Author:** ![KGS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/90ced4/32.png) [@KGS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KGS)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2009, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypnagogia-voices-of-the-dead/500818/99 "2009-06-25T16:28:34Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > How so? You couldn’t just state them without offering some kind of repeatable proof, could you? Dude…you’re not actually saying that gravity DIDN’T EXIST before Newton formulated, are you?? > [@kanicbird](#): > > The voices are not necessarily God, most likely not God, but God is allowing them. You want to see where it goes, talk to them, encourage them, meditate alone in the room where you hear them. They will get clearer and you will find out why. Oh, hey kanic. Check out my list at post #66 – which kind of voices are yours? I mean, YOU hear God’s Voice, don’t you? What does God tell you to do? ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2009, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypnagogia-voices-of-the-dead/500818/100 "2009-06-25T16:52:20Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > DNA allows for untold permutations of how a brain may form and who knows what potential the human mind may have? > > At one time, gravitational attraction and orbital velocities, etc, were just interesting theories waiting for science to back them up, and dismissing anything about the human brain when we know next to nothing about it, is arrogance of the highest order. > > And as for sensations or experiences beyond current scientific explanation, how many “normal” people have visited a place or building that has a ‘presence’ that almost takes you back to the time when the building or place was most in use? > > If we could record a person’s thoughts, you would then have material evidence of an immaterial occurrence, or at least one that occurs on a quantum level, and we all know that strange things are possible when you get down that small. As a skeptic of the highest order, I agree completely. There’s a vanishingly small chance that there’s something strange going on, and I’m not going to categorically deny that fact for a single instant. But until somebody provides a compelling reason\* to believe their pet theory, I’m not going to buy it. Not because it _can’t_\*\* be true - but because there’s no reason whatsoever to _believe_ that it’s true - and there’s certainly no reason whatsoever to think that the man behind the curtain that you’re telling me to ignore really isn’t involved. - and as compelling reasons go, “because it’s cool” only suspends disbelief for the duration of a movie or book, and no longer than that. \*\* except self-contradicory theories. Those really _can’t_ be true - and don’t make good movies or books, either. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypnagogia-voices-of-the-dead/500818.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypnagogia-voices-of-the-dead/500818.md?page=6)