# Hypocrites **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 29, 2001, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypocrites/78814 "2001-08-29T21:55:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![BuddhaDog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ea5d25/32.png) [@BuddhaDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BuddhaDog)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2001, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypocrites/78814/41 "2001-08-30T17:57:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by BuddhaDog \* > \*\*…how _wrong_ it is to use words like _black-hearted_, because that would equate all African-Americans as being all evil-minded, and words like _yellow-bellied_ since that would mean that all of people of Japanese descent are cowards, right? > \*\* **Alphagene** Uh, no. I am not championing being _Un-PC_, afterall if you take it too far to the left you are back on the right, so to speak. What I don’t understand is how people are so empowered by words that, to use another analogy, they can’t see the forest for the trees. Sticks and stones and all that stuff. ---
**Author:** ![Legomancer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/779978/32.png) [@Legomancer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Legomancer)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2001, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypocrites/78814/42 "2001-08-30T17:58:02Z")
I don’t know about the Christianity thing, but it does bug me when people use the word “gay” to mean “stupid”. It also bugs me when they use the word “retarded” for that as well. No matter who says it, they instantly turn fourteen years old in my eyes. A friend of mine who teaches math in a university had a student announce during a lecture on finity, “This is so retarded!” I told him he should have responded with, “Are you sure it’s not just ‘gay’?” ---
**Author:** ![dalovindj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/65b543/32.png) [@dalovindj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dalovindj)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2001, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypocrites/78814/43 "2001-08-30T17:58:32Z")
> [@](#): > > Using the phrase “that’s so gay” to mean something contemptible is as bad as using the phrase “I jewed his price down” to mean I haggled with him. What you’re saying is that being gay is so contemptible that it makes a baseline to compare other equally contemptible things to. I disagree with this statement. The saying “I jewed his price down” refers specifically to the idea that Jew’s are thrifty/stingy. The statement: “That is so gay (meaning lame)” does not neccasarily imply that homsexuals are lame. It could, depending on the context, but that is not the implication put forth when my friends and I use the word. The word ‘gay’ in this sense does not refer in anyway to anybody’s sexual preference, whereas the jew comment definately references an entire race, and intentionally at that. There is nothing wrong with using the word “gay” to mean “lame” (meaning “goofy and cheesy”). However, I will probably not be using that phrase around here anymore just to save myself the keystrokes required to explain/defend my position. It’s not becuase I feel I am in the wrong, it just sucks to derail cool threads cause some people don’t understand the principles of context and intent. The usage is proper, commonly accepted (at least among my peers), and implys no malice towards gay people. That said. Screw it. I’m pretty good at coming up with colorful insults so I’ll just reach deeper in the bag for my forays into the pit. DaLovin’ Dj ---
**Author:** ![IzzyR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/2acd7d/32.png) [@IzzyR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IzzyR)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2001, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypocrites/78814/44 "2001-08-30T18:10:44Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by gobear \* > Categorical slams against a whole group gets short shrift at the SDMB, so your complaint has no merit. You can bitch about some gays, but not “the gays,” just as you can bitch about some Christians, but not “the Christians.” It’s that simple. I don’t think it’s that simple at all. One other question would be if you can, while complaining about “some gays”, refer to their being gay, thereby implying that that which you are complaining about has some connection to their being gay? Can you do this while complaining about “some Christians”? ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2001, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypocrites/78814/45 "2001-08-30T18:24:31Z")
DJ, you’re a complete fucking asshole, and an idiot to boot. By that I mean you’re a really nice guy and a swell dj. It’s all a matter of context. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2001, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypocrites/78814/46 "2001-08-30T18:28:40Z")
> [@](#): > > One other question would be if you can, while complaining about “some gays”, refer to their being gay, thereby implying that that which you are complaining about has some connection to their being gay? Sure, but it depends on how you word your remarks. Say you see two guys kissing at the Metro station. You could respond this way: “I was at the Metro and these two guys were blocking the turnstile while they kissed. I got no problwm with gay guys showing affection, but come on, there’s a time and a place for everything.” You would be commenting on behavior that directly has to do with their being gay, but does not reflect on all gays. Or you could post like this: “I was at the Metro and a couple of fags were swapping spit at the turnstile. It’s bad enough we let these fruitbars walk the streets, but they ought to keep their filthy, unclean acts out of the sight of decent people.” See the difference? ---
**Author:** ![Jodi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7feea3/32.png) [@Jodi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jodi)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2001, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypocrites/78814/47 "2001-08-30T18:38:20Z")
Uh, pardon me for weighing in to state the obvious but . . . You ask, in effect, “if being offensive to Christians is okay, why isn’t being offensive to gays?” But being offensive to gays is wrong all by itself, without regard to how Christians are or are not treated. “Christian-bashing” and “gay-bashing,” perceived or real, are two different things. Even if people around here truly felt that the former was okay (which, you’re right, some do), that would not make the latter okay. Other people’s unrelated bad behavior under no circumstances excuses our own. ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2001, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypocrites/78814/48 "2001-08-30T18:45:52Z")
> [@](#): > > DJ, you’re a complete fucking asshole, and an idiot to boot. > > By that I mean you’re a really nice guy and a swell dj. > > It’s all a matter of context. **andros** , you are the master. ---
**Author:** ![zut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zut/32/2875_2.png) [@zut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zut)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2001, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypocrites/78814/49 "2001-08-30T18:53:24Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by dalovindj \* > I disagree with [the sentiment that gay/contemptable equals jewed/haggled]. The saying “I jewed his price down” refers specifically to the idea that Jew’s are thrifty/stingy. The statement: “That is so gay (meaning lame)” does not neccasarily imply that homsexuals are lame. It could, depending on the context, but that is not the implication put forth when my friends and I use the word. The word ‘gay’ in this sense does not refer in anyway to anybody’s sexual preference, whereas the jew comment definately references an entire race, and intentionally at that. Y’know, I’ve been thinkin’ about this since reading the other pit thread where this was discussed, and I think I stand with **gobear** in this instance. Here’s my reasoning: 1. When I was in elementary school, we used the word “gay” to mean “contemptable,” also. However, we used the word “gay” to mean “_contemptable like a homosexual_.” There was no seperation of meanings here. (I’d like to point out that I’ve grown up in the interim.) 2. Granted, it appears that the word has undergone a slight change in meaning where “gay” can mean _either_ “homosexual” or “contemptable” but not both. However, I find it hard to believe that the “contemptable” definition, although now divorced from the “homosexual” definition, did not come directly from the earlier usage I observed when I was in third grade. 3. My grandfather occasionally uses the word “jewed”, often in a context like, “He was asking $50, but I jewed him down to $35.” In this context, the word is hardly derogatory in meaning (why would my grandfather insult himself?), and, I think, has changed from the insulting “stingy” to the slightly different “good bargainer.” 4. Nevertheless, even in this context, I think using “jewed” is wrong, because its use alludes to the earlier (well, still current, really) use of “jewed” to mean “stingy, like Jews are.” 5. In the same way, I think using “gay” to mean “lame” is wrong, because its use alludes to the earlier (and probably still current) use of “gay” to mean “contemptable, like homosexuals are.” As an aside when I read someone saying “that’s so gay!” I _automatically_ interpret it as “that’s nasty, like fags are.” And I automatically assume that person is a bigot. Perhaps incorrectly, but that’s the way I’m hard-wired now. So now you know my knee-jerk reaction in addition to my reasoned one. ---
**Author:** ![IzzyR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/2acd7d/32.png) [@IzzyR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IzzyR)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2001, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypocrites/78814/50 "2001-08-30T18:59:52Z")
**Gobear** I was thinking along the lines of a thread full of complaints about obnoxious gay guys, whose only shared characteristic was their being obnoxious and gay (as opposed to treating gay obnoxious people as obnoxious people who happen to be gay). Or throwing in a gratuitous reference to someone’s being gay when discussing some offensive act that they performed. (These as compared to the same with Christians). Basically my point is that tolerance and offensiveness are not as clear-cut as you would suggest, and it is difficult if not impossible for anyone to definitively and objectively prove that the standards are or are not the same for the different groups. (Though as you may recall ( 😉 ), **freedom** gave it a pretty good shot). ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2001, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypocrites/78814/51 "2001-08-30T19:04:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by MrVisible \* > \*\ ***James** , did you really say “rump-riding butt pirates”? > > Hmph. The correct term is “ass-blasting rectum riders”. Please make a note of it.\*\* That is just _so_ last April. The currently accepted term is “Stool-pushing humpfiends.” **zut,** I believe your deconstruction of the word “Gay” in this context is excellent. It could not be better stated. ---
**Author:** ![dalovindj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/65b543/32.png) [@dalovindj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dalovindj)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2001, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypocrites/78814/52 "2001-08-30T19:51:25Z")
andros: > [@](#): > > DJ, you’re a complete fucking asshole, and an idiot to boot. > > By that I mean you’re a really nice guy and a swell dj. > > It’s all a matter of context Well the context of this statement is a SDMB thread concerning use of the word gay. Now let’s talk about intent. You made a statement that by itself (or within the context of this thread) is rude and insulting. Then you clarified your intent, which was to use the words to mean something far from the common usage. Not only is the usage uncommon, it’s unheard of. I have never seen anyone use those words to mean those things. Perhaps you have an example, other than your own words, where those terms are used in that manner. Now, I will go a step further and read into your true intent (which is different than the one you stated). You are being sarcastic in an attempt to derail my position on this issue. I presume you have a point, but since you chose sarcasm instead of straightforward speech, it is difficult to address. It would seem that your point is something like: “I can just use the word context to change the meaning of any word I want to fit my purposes is what you said DaLovin Dj. And see what happens when you do that?” So, I’ve used context to determine your true intent. If I am wrong about your intent, feel free to correct me. I reccomend just saying it, instead of being sarcastic about it (like a punk). To address your point: That is not what I said. The word gay has an accepted meaning that has nothing to do with homosexuals. For an example see “Jay and Bob Strike back” when one girl says it to another in the jewell heist scene. I am not just changing the meanings of words as I see fit. I am using it as is commonly used by a large portion of the people I commonly speak to. And I don’t hang around with biggots. DaLovin’Dj ---
**Author:** ![Alphagene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Alphagene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alphagene)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2001, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypocrites/78814/53 "2001-08-30T19:53:24Z")
I’ve always felt that anyone has a right to be offended by phrases like “that’s so gay” or “indian giver” or “jew the price down”. Anyone also has a right to not give a crap if they’ve offended someone with a phrase like that. I don’t think that anyone is automatically a homophobe for using the word “gay” in a Jay and Silent Bob sort of way. But I think using a phrase knowing that it offends people you are conversing with shows a lack of respect for that other person. And that lack of respect says more about someone than does the utterance of a word. Getting back to the OP, if you see any group being unfairly blasted, then step in and defend them when you see it. It has a much more direct effect than starting a Pit thread vaguely indicting the SDMB as a whole. Everything from the existence of God to the taboo bestiality has been questioned here. There are no universal sacred cows here that I am aware of. And if a devout Shrisampradayan chooses to be offended by my last sentence, so be it. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![BuddhaDog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ea5d25/32.png) [@BuddhaDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BuddhaDog)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2001, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypocrites/78814/54 "2001-08-30T20:04:47Z")
gay\* adj 1: bright and pleasant; promoting a feeling of cheer; “a cheery hello”; “a gay sunny room”; “a sunny smile” [syn: cheery, sunny] 2: full of or showing high-spirited merriment; “when hearts were young and gay”; “a poet could not but be gay, in such a jocund company”- etc… Then somewhere along the line, tens if not hundreds of years later, the word was _adopted_ by homosexuals to mean something else. If there is nothing wrong with that, why shouldn’t I be able to _adopt_ the same word to do the same thing, and be held in contempt for doing so? I am all for equal rights. Key word being _ **equal** _. If the _gay_ community can _hijack_ a word to fit their needs, and the _black_ community can _hijack_ a word, why shouldn’t I? They claim they do so to de-power the meaning of said word. Thats why so many of my friends call each other _my nigga_ and _that queer_. The human condition known as speech is for everybody, not just the select few. Do I have to pay a licensing fee to use these _special_ words? Do I have to be a part of the _community_ to which the words _belong_? If the answer is yes, then I am partially guilty. If the answer is no, then you are part of a mob mentality. \*[sub]Did you know that it is also a town in Georgia? Gay, GA (town, FIPS 32384) Location: 33.09367 N, 84.57400 W Population (1990): 133 (64 housing units) Area: 2.0 sq km (land), 0.0 sq km (water) Gay, MI Zip code(s): 49945 Gay, WV Zip code(s): 25244[/sub] I’ve heard people say “That is so New York!” ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2001, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypocrites/78814/55 "2001-08-30T20:27:21Z")
**BuddhaDog** , you’re being a thick-headed idiot. We’ve already had this argument. Co-opted words and all that shit. Yes, if two gay people meet in the street and decided to call each other queer, that is fine and dandy. If I want to ride around in my car and yell, “Hey Queer!” out the window, that is not ok. It is all about context. And it has been explained to you that the context in which you are using a word is offensive to a great many here, and yet you want to stand behind your bullshit “I’m not PC” argument. Here is a great example - it was pointed out to me just recently that the word “Batty” is a slang term for anus in Jamaica. And “Batty-Man” is a derogatory term for homosexual. Now that I am armed with that knowledge, I know a few terms to avoid using if I ever find myself in Jamaica. You’ve been armed with the knowledge that saying, “that is so gay,” is going to offend people, but you still insist on shooting off your mouth. Fine. Be a dick. Just don’t be surprised when you’re called a dick as a result. ---
**Author:** ![BuddhaDog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ea5d25/32.png) [@BuddhaDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BuddhaDog)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2001, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypocrites/78814/56 "2001-08-30T20:29:38Z")
[QUOTE] \*Originally posted by zut \* \*\* > [@](#): > > As an aside when I read someone saying “that’s so gay!” I _automatically_ interpret it as “that’s nasty, like fags are.” And I automatically assume that person is a bigot. Perhaps incorrectly, but that’s the way I’m hard-wired now. So now you know my knee-jerk reaction in addition to my reasoned one. \*\* **bigot** n : a prejudiced person who is intolerant of any opinions differing from his own So, **Zut** since you ’ _automatically_ interpret it as "that’s nasty, like fags are.’, it is you who is a **bigot** , as you are intollerable of other opinions. ---
**Author:** ![BuddhaDog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ea5d25/32.png) [@BuddhaDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BuddhaDog)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2001, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypocrites/78814/57 "2001-08-30T20:41:42Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Jack Batty \* > It is all about context. > > \*\* Sorry Jack but context does not apply in the realm of the SDMB as we can see [here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=82027) and the subsequent pit thread [here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=83169). Sorry. ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2001, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypocrites/78814/58 "2001-08-30T20:45:38Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by BuddhaDog \* > \*\*[ **bigot** n : a prejudiced person who is intolerant of any opinions differing from his own . \*\* Hmm the MW online dictionary says: Main Entry: big·ot Pronunciation: 'bi-g&t Function: noun Etymology: Middle French, hypocrite, bigot Date: 1661 : a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices while “prejudice” is defined as: Main Entry: 1prej·u·dice Pronunciation: 'pre-j&-d&s Function: noun Etymology: Middle English, from Old French, from Latin praejudicium previous judgment, damage, from prae- + judicium judgment – more at JUDICIAL Date: 13th century 1 : injury or damage resulting from some judgment or action of another in disregard of one’s rights; especially : detriment to one’s legal rights or claims 2 a (1) : preconceived judgment or opinion (2) : an adverse opinion or leaning formed without just grounds or before sufficient knowledge b : an instance of such judgment or opinion c : an irrational attitude of hostility directed against an individual, a group, a race, or their supposed characteristics So, it seems the definative issue is not that it’s one’s opinion, but that it’s a “preconceived one, specifically advers formed without just grounds or before sufficient knowledge”. So, your attempt to paint some one else as being a bigot for not agreeing with your bigotry is, well as unfounded and uninformed as one would expect from a bigot. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2001, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypocrites/78814/59 "2001-08-30T21:03:46Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by BuddhaDog \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by Jack Batty \* > > It is all about context. > > > > \*\* > > Sorry Jack but context does not apply in the realm of the SDMB as we can see [here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=82027) and the subsequent pit thread [here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=83169). > > Sorry. \*\* And **BuddhaDog** wins the Green Grocer of the Year Award for the dumbest comparison of apples to oranges. I’m talking about the context of how a word is used in conversation, you fucking ninny. Of course that matters. That’s pretty much the basis for communication. What the hell does a Russian dictator have to do with the fact that the expression “you’re so gay” is offensive to some? I don’t care what “context” is being used to justify the Russian Revolution - it has nothing to do with the fact that you’re a doorknob. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2001, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypocrites/78814/60 "2001-08-30T21:10:09Z")
This is just my two cents, but: I’m not easily offended by phrases or words. You want to use the term “gay” to mean stupid around me? Fine. Knock yourself out. However, some people are offended if you use the word, and, if you know someone is going to be offended if you use a word, don’t use the word unless you want to offend that person! It’s not a hard concept, people. Don’t go telling me, “Well, I have the right to use the word” or “He doesn’t have the right to be offended.” or “But other people used the word and it was ok.” Fine, whatever, that’s not relevant. Just don’t use the word if you don’t want to offend whoever finds it offense. Ok, lets say you make a mistake…you accidently use a word that somebody finds offensive when offending that person wasn’t your intention. You know what you do then? You say “I’m sorry I used word X. I won’t do it again.” This isn’t difficult. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypocrites/78814.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypocrites/78814.md?page=4)