# Hypothetical: a shot given to a pregnant mother that ensures a heterosexual child. Do you do it? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [August 1, 2012, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetical-a-shot-given-to-a-pregnant-mother-that-ensures-a-heterosexual-child-do-you-do-it/630075 "2012-08-01T17:23:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Weeping\_Wyvern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/858c86/32.png) [@Weeping\_Wyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weeping_Wyvern)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2012, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetical-a-shot-given-to-a-pregnant-mother-that-ensures-a-heterosexual-child-do-you-do-it/630075/81 "2012-08-01T19:59:53Z")
I am a heterosexual male, and yes, I would definitely administer this magical shot to my offspring. If I did end up with a homosexual child, I would still love him with all my brain, but since the shot would both A) make his life easier, and B) reduce the possibility that he would do certain things I consider wrong, I have nothing to loose. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2012, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetical-a-shot-given-to-a-pregnant-mother-that-ensures-a-heterosexual-child-do-you-do-it/630075/82 "2012-08-01T20:00:30Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > More like “no choice of life partners” really. You are talking about a society were there is an anti gay vaccine, i assume everything else would be equal. Gays would be virtually extinct. Except that, based on the results here at least, very few parents would use the anti gay vaccine. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2012, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetical-a-shot-given-to-a-pregnant-mother-that-ensures-a-heterosexual-child-do-you-do-it/630075/83 "2012-08-01T20:05:00Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > If that shot existed and you didn’t take it you’d be dooming your child to a life of loneliness. This. If this shot existed, we’d see effectively no more gay people in the population in a generation. Question for those not interested in the shot: How about if it just guaranteed that they were born with a physical gender that matched their mental one? So they were guaranteed to not be transgender. ---
**Author:** ![rhubarbarin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/eb9ed0/32.png) [@rhubarbarin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rhubarbarin)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2012, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetical-a-shot-given-to-a-pregnant-mother-that-ensures-a-heterosexual-child-do-you-do-it/630075/84 "2012-08-01T20:06:13Z")
I’m a woman and tentatively identify as bisexual, and ABSOLUTELY not. I’d have no personal issue whatsoever with having a homosexual child or children, and I think I’d be a more supportive parent than most. I feel a bit weird about it, but I’ve always harbored some hope that I will someday have a gay son. Probably because some of my dearest friends have been gay men (I’m not nearly as drawn to straight guys). ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2012, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetical-a-shot-given-to-a-pregnant-mother-that-ensures-a-heterosexual-child-do-you-do-it/630075/85 "2012-08-01T20:11:33Z")
> [@Meatros](#): > > My reasoning was, obviously, that some people do have abortions because their children are female. I gave [a link](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex-selective_abortion#Reasons_for_sex-selective_abortion) which had this You gave absolutely no reasoning why you think my mentality is like that. Or at least nothing more nuanced than “they’re the same”. But I’ll give you more reasoning than you’re going to give me: > [@Meatros](#): > > So now can you please answer my question as to why your mentality does not justify abortions for this reason? If it’s because they are ‘abortions’ then would you be in favor of these countries being able to take shots to ensure their children were male? Should those countries do so if **they love their children**? First and foremost, I am proposing removing a burden from a child to improve its life. Aborting a fetus ends its life, so not remotely comparable. Further, the motivation of the parents has nothing to do with sparing the fetus the difficulty of being female, it’s just because they judge male offspring to be more valuable to them, the parents. So it’s entirely selfish. Having demonstrated that, your hypothetical of a “male shot” falls apart, since this is demonstrably not for the benefit of the child but for the parents’ own greed and selfishness. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2012, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetical-a-shot-given-to-a-pregnant-mother-that-ensures-a-heterosexual-child-do-you-do-it/630075/86 "2012-08-01T20:15:04Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > But of course you are. “Son, it’s important to my principles that you get to experience being a persecuted minority, though I myself will never be subject to that.” > > Sort of a “you go first” brand of skydiving there, and you’re doing it to a CHILD. My future child will be black. So you’re saying I should wish he/she will not be. I have two words for you, but they don’t belong here. If I’m misunderstanding you, please explain. ---
**Author:** ![EmilyG](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/emilyg/32/364_2.png) [@EmilyG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EmilyG)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2012, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetical-a-shot-given-to-a-pregnant-mother-that-ensures-a-heterosexual-child-do-you-do-it/630075/87 "2012-08-01T20:18:38Z")
I’m female, and I identify as straight. I never want to have kids, but if I were to have a child, I would not administer the shot/pill ensuring a straight child. The reason is that I have absolutely no problem with gay people. Many of my friends are gay, and some are bisexual or asexual. I love all my friends regardless of their sexual orientation. ---
**Author:** ![Meatros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Meatros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meatros)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2012, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetical-a-shot-given-to-a-pregnant-mother-that-ensures-a-heterosexual-child-do-you-do-it/630075/88 "2012-08-01T20:19:07Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > You gave absolutely no reasoning why you think my mentality is like that. Or at least nothing more nuanced than “they’re the same”. But I’ll give you more reasoning than you’re going to give me: Ah, I see. I viewed your mentality like that because you think that all loving parents should make their children’s lives easier by selecting a fundamental characteristic about themselves. > [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > First and foremost, I am proposing removing a burden from a child to improve its life. Aborting a fetus ends its life, so not remotely comparable. Further, the motivation of the parents has nothing to do with sparing the fetus the difficulty of being female, it’s just because they judge male offspring to be more valuable to them, the parents. So it’s entirely selfish. Okay, as I said, assume a male shot. The motivation does seem to be to **spare the child a life of hardship and pain**. From what I quoted: > [@](#): > > She is mutely banned to work in the society, pressured by family and discouraged from the society. Lower salary, working in temporary or non-regular jobs, in lower status in working position, faced with thick harsh glass-walls and glass ceiling are all evidence that their society is not so keen towards women on top. These family usually live with their elders and the older generations considers jumping in the business sector overrated for women. In these societies, mothers are viewed to sacrifice herself into assisting her husband and raising children, sparing no time for self-development. All in all, in cultures that practice sex-selective abortion, women are prone to sexual discrimination and are viewed below status to men. Society treats them as second class citizens…So why not spare them that pain? > [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > Having demonstrated that, your hypothetical of a “male shot” falls apart, since this is demonstrably not for the benefit of the child but for the parents’ own greed and selfishness. Actually you’ve done no such thing, as you simply ignored the parts that were convenient for you to ignore (you know, the part I quoted), which had nothing to do with ‘value’. ---
**Author:** ![Meatros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Meatros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meatros)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2012, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetical-a-shot-given-to-a-pregnant-mother-that-ensures-a-heterosexual-child-do-you-do-it/630075/89 "2012-08-01T20:21:28Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > My future child will be black. So you’re saying I should wish he/she will not be. I have two words for you, but they don’t belong here. > > If I’m misunderstanding you, please explain. I don’t think you do. I think he views societal norms as being the most important thing in a family. Presumably he would be for a ‘white shot’ in 1800’s America, where African Americans were slaves. All parents who loved their children would get the white shot, according to HMS Irruncible’s logic. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2012, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetical-a-shot-given-to-a-pregnant-mother-that-ensures-a-heterosexual-child-do-you-do-it/630075/90 "2012-08-01T20:22:03Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > My future child will be black. So you’re saying I should wish he/she will not be. I have two words for you, but they don’t belong here. > > If I’m misunderstanding you, please explain. You don’t want to understand. You want to posture. Go right ahead, but don’t pretend you’re interested in an explanation. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2012, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetical-a-shot-given-to-a-pregnant-mother-that-ensures-a-heterosexual-child-do-you-do-it/630075/91 "2012-08-01T20:26:50Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > My future child will be black. So you’re saying I should wish he/she will not be. I have two words for you, but they don’t belong here. > > If I’m misunderstanding you, please explain. Seems to me that changing a child’s race or visible ethnicity to avoid the negative effects of bigotry is a different situation, in that parents generally have an interest in having kids follow their race or ethnicity. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2012, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetical-a-shot-given-to-a-pregnant-mother-that-ensures-a-heterosexual-child-do-you-do-it/630075/92 "2012-08-01T20:29:44Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > You don’t want to understand. You want to posture. Go right ahead, but don’t pretend you’re interested in an explanation. Ok, I apologize. I meekly request you to further explain what you mean. I genuinely took it to mean that you actually believe that if such a pill existed, it would be wrong of me **not** to change my child from black to white. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2012, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetical-a-shot-given-to-a-pregnant-mother-that-ensures-a-heterosexual-child-do-you-do-it/630075/93 "2012-08-01T20:30:15Z")
> [@Meatros](#): > > Okay, as I said, assume a male shot. > > The motivation does seem to be to **spare the child a life of hardship and pain**. And again, aborting a fetus cannot under any circumstances be considered improving its life. It ends the life. It doesn’t get to have a life. You can say it is preventing hardship for the fetus, but under no interpretation does it give a better life. > [@](#): > > From what I quoted: You went to Wikipedia and scrolled down past a large, well-referenced section called “Cultural Preference” to selectively quote an entirely unreferenced section called “Sexual Discrimination”. Hi, selective reading and quoting? That’d be you. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2012, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetical-a-shot-given-to-a-pregnant-mother-that-ensures-a-heterosexual-child-do-you-do-it/630075/94 "2012-08-01T20:31:05Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Seems to me that changing a child’s race or visible ethnicity to avoid the negative effects of bigotry is a different situation, in that parents generally have an interest in having kids follow their race or ethnicity. This doesn’t apply to me and my wife either- it’s biologically impossible for our child to have the same race or ethnicity as both of us. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2012, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetical-a-shot-given-to-a-pregnant-mother-that-ensures-a-heterosexual-child-do-you-do-it/630075/95 "2012-08-01T20:31:28Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > No. As I mentioned in a previous response, it’s not “undoing” homosexuality, it’s simply ensuring that your child would develop, normally, into someone attracted to the opposite sex and not his/her own. Actually, he would be developing _abnormally_, because you intervened to make sure he developed in a way that you find acceptable. His normal development would have made him gay. As to the question of being a victim of violence, at least as far as it pertains to a hypothetical daughter, have you considered the fact that, as a lesbian, she would be drastically _less_ likely to suffer violence at the hands of her spouse? Domestic abuse isn’t entirely unknown in lesbian relationships, but it’s much, much less common than it is in hetero relationships. Given this, would you considered a shot that would guarantee lesbianism in a fetus? > [@](#): > > I’m glad you asked this. It seems to me, that while I would love my gay child as much as I might love a heterosexual one, that heterosexuality does allow for a fuller experience for both men and women. It is clear that men and women were made to come together. The anatomy speaks to that as does the fact that that is who the species is carried on. It seems obvious that being able to experience that equates to the participant having a fuller male or fuller female experience. Oy. This is just… just so very, very stupid. First of all, to the extent that anyone is “meant” to be anything, gay people are just as much “meant” to exist as straight people. Whether you believe we were made this way by God or by nature, we were made this way, and if there’s a purpose behind being straight, there’s just as much a purpose behind being gay. Most men were “made” to come together with women. Some mean were “made” to come together with men. Some women were “made” to come together with women. Secondly, your argument from anatomy fails on so many levels I’m not sure where to begin. The fact that a gay man is somehow less fulfilled because he never sticks his dick in a vagina, the way it was “meant” to happen, makes about as much sense as saying you’re living an unfulfilled life because you’ve never put your appendix to its “intended” purpose. Secondly, evolution is an ongoing process. When our ancestors stopped swinging from trees, they weren’t suddenly unfulfilled because they were no longer using their arms for their “intended” purpose. The argument that men aren’t “supposed” to use their dicks on each other is meaningless from an evolutionary standpoint, because evolution happens when we start using our bodies in ways they weren’t “supposed” to be used. There’s also some pretty clear inefficencies in heterosexual intercourse. Most vaginas are not designed in such a way that the clitoris can be stimulated by penile intercourse. And, of course, no guy is ever going to have his prostate stimulated by standard heterosexual intercourse, meaning he’s missing out on one the biggest erotic zones on his body. These are both problems that are almost entirely avoided by gay sex. And, of course, the reduced odds of conceiving is not a drawback to homosexuality, it’s a feature, and not something that’s automatically counter to what nature “intends.” Nature “uses” lots of different mechanisms to limit fertility. There’s no reason to think that homosexuality is any different than an estrus cycle, pack dynamics where only the alpha mates, or having the majority of the species be infertile drones. Lastly, on a purely personal note, I’m bisexual. I can state, from first hand experience, that heterosexual relationships are not, on balance, any more or less fulfilling than homosexual relationships. ---
**Author:** ![filmore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7993a0/32.png) [@filmore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filmore)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2012, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetical-a-shot-given-to-a-pregnant-mother-that-ensures-a-heterosexual-child-do-you-do-it/630075/96 "2012-08-01T20:32:40Z")
I don’t think there’s anything wrong with being gay, but plenty of people in this world do. If I had full and safe control of the orientation of my child, I would pick straight so that they wouldn’t have to endure the hardships of growing up in an environment which makes them feel wrong or ashamed about who they are. I actually think it makes more sense to be gay. If you’re looking for a partner, you’re likely going to have more in common with someone of the same sex than the opposite. You’ll likely have more similar interests in hobbies and it’s likely that your sex drives will be more in sync. But I don’t think that advantage is worth it considering the real world that we live in with all the bigots out there. I wonder what people would do if they found out they could control the child’s orientation based on how they were conceived? For example: - Lay on left side – Guaranteed straight - Lay on right side – Guaranteed gay Now you’d have full control of what you wanted to happen without any health risks to the child. I would guess most people would strive that their child had their same orientation. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2012, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetical-a-shot-given-to-a-pregnant-mother-that-ensures-a-heterosexual-child-do-you-do-it/630075/97 "2012-08-01T20:34:44Z")
> [@](#): > > Oy. This is just… just so very, very stupid. Indeed. Hit the nail on the head in post 95 ---
**Author:** ![Meatros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Meatros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meatros)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2012, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetical-a-shot-given-to-a-pregnant-mother-that-ensures-a-heterosexual-child-do-you-do-it/630075/98 "2012-08-01T20:35:04Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > And again, aborting a fetus cannot under any circumstances be considered improving its life. It ends the life. It doesn’t get to have a life. You can say it is preventing hardship for the fetus, but under no interpretation does it give a better life. Allow me to repeat what I wrote and to emphasize something: \*Okay, as I said, **assume a male shot.** The motivation does seem to be to spare the child a life of hardship and pain.\* Your abortion qualms are moot. > [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > You went to Wikipedia and scrolled down past a large, well-referenced section called “Cultural Preference” to selectively quote an entirely unreferenced section called “Sexual Discrimination”. Hi, selective reading and quoting? That’d be you. Er, I said there were many reasons - are you asserting that sexual discrimination is not one of the reasons? Cause if so, you are clearly wrong. If you are saying that we should ONLY consider ‘cultural preference’ as a reason, then it would be you that is reading selectively. Obviously I’m going to reference what best helps my case and since sexual discrimination IS one of the reasons, that’s why I quoted it. This is clearly handwaving, and quite frankly, bizarre. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2012, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetical-a-shot-given-to-a-pregnant-mother-that-ensures-a-heterosexual-child-do-you-do-it/630075/99 "2012-08-01T20:40:51Z")
Gay male. 1. I am so glad my mother didn’t have this pill; my life would possibly be greatly diminished. 2. So this is how insecure and bigoted straight people will do their “recruiting” in the future? ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2012, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetical-a-shot-given-to-a-pregnant-mother-that-ensures-a-heterosexual-child-do-you-do-it/630075/100 "2012-08-01T20:44:01Z")
> [@Meatros](#): > > Ah, I see. I viewed your mentality like that because you think that all loving parents should make their children’s lives easier by selecting a fundamental characteristic about themselves. > > Okay, as I said, assume a male shot. > > The motivation does seem to be to **spare the child a life of hardship and pain**. > > From what I quoted: > > Society treats them as second class citizens…So why not spare them that pain? > > Actually you’ve done no such thing, as you simply ignored the parts that were convenient for you to ignore (you know, the part I quoted), which had nothing to do with ‘value’. Seems to me that there are some distinctions here: 1. It is not proved that people have male children because they wish to spare their children a life of female discrimination. You have demonstrated that such discrimination exists, not that this is their motive male selection. From your link: > [@](#): > > son is often preferred as an “asset” since he can earn and support the family; a daughter is a “liability” since she will be married off to another family, and so will not contribute financially to her parents. The patriarchal structure of a society is the single most important factor skewing the sex ratio in favor of males, accentuated in some cultures by the burden of raising a dowry for a daughter’s marriage. Openness to the very concept of sex selection is a significant factor: among societies which practice selective female abortion nowadays, many were systematically practicing female infanticide (either directly or by withholding postnatal care from children of undesirable sex) long before abortion became a viable option.[27] Furthermore, in some cultures sons are expected to take care of their parents in their old age.[28] In modern East Asia, a large part of the pattern of preferences leading to this practice can be condensed simply as a desire to have a male heir. Monica Das Gupta (2005) observes that, in late 1980s to early 1990s China, there was no evidence of selective abortion of female fetuses among firstborn children, or in families with one or more existing sons (in fact, families with multiple sons were, if anything, more likely to abort a boy than a girl). But, at the same time, families with existing daughters appeared very likely to abort any further female fetuses, resulting in heavily skewed sex ratios.[27] 1. Selecting males has bad societal implications down the road, which will affect the children so selected - namely, lack of mates for many. It is unclear what bad societal and personal implications hetero selection would have. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetical-a-shot-given-to-a-pregnant-mother-that-ensures-a-heterosexual-child-do-you-do-it/630075.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetical-a-shot-given-to-a-pregnant-mother-that-ensures-a-heterosexual-child-do-you-do-it/630075.md?page=6)