# Hypothetical battle at the Tomb of Imam Hussein **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 14, 2004, 11:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetical-battle-at-the-tomb-of-imam-hussein/245098 "2004-05-14T11:38:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2004, 11:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetical-battle-at-the-tomb-of-imam-hussein/245098/1 "2004-05-14T11:38:52Z")
The tomb of [Imam Hussein in Karbala](http://al-islam.org/history/history/main.html), Iraq, is the third holiest site in the Muslim world. If a Shiite militia used it as as base for attacking US forces, should the US attack it, knowing that pictures of Americans attacking the tomb of Mohammed’s grandson would be beamed around the Muslim world, echoing Husseins original martyrdom? Surely such an eventuality should have been considered almost inevitable? ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2004, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetical-battle-at-the-tomb-of-imam-hussein/245098/2 "2004-05-14T12:58:59Z")
Why attack when you could simply lay siege and starve them out? They’d last about 2 weeks in the heat I would imagine. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2004, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetical-battle-at-the-tomb-of-imam-hussein/245098/3 "2004-05-14T13:04:35Z")
> [@Grey](#): > > Why attack when you could simply lay siege and starve them out? They’d last about 2 weeks in the heat I would imagine. My fear is that something like an attack on a helo from that position would produce a counter-strike authorised by officers on a ‘position’ without realising or caring about the symbolic significance. I guess and hope US forces have been ordered not to risk damaging holy places come what may but when you’re being fired at in war, shit happens whatever higher-ups might like. It would be, as the saying goes, putting out fires with gasoline. My guess is it’s only a matter of time before something like that happens. ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2004, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetical-battle-at-the-tomb-of-imam-hussein/245098/4 "2004-05-14T13:17:15Z")
I agree that the chance of a “fire if fired on” incident is probably greater than any methodical storming of the shrine. Hopefully (though at this point it’s closer to wishing) the commander in the region is fully aware of the potential PR disaster should they level/damage the shrine. It would require a fair bit of restraint to not return fire from constant sniping while locking the area down though. ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2004, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetical-battle-at-the-tomb-of-imam-hussein/245098/5 "2004-05-14T13:23:35Z")
I don’t believe they would “not realise the significance” of the Shrine, given its enormous size and its splendid gold domes. However, US forces are hedging very close to [attacking the Shrine of Mohammed’s son Ali](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3713453.stm) in Najaf right now. (Indeed, there are machine gun holes in one golden dome already.) They seem to be encountering significant difficulty “locking down” the area. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2004, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetical-battle-at-the-tomb-of-imam-hussein/245098/6 "2004-05-14T13:24:58Z")
> [@Grey](#): > > I agree that the chance of a “fire if fired on” incident is probably greater than any methodical storming of the shrine. Hopefully (though at this point it’s closer to wishing) the commander in the region is fully aware of the potential PR disaster should they level/damage the shrine. > > It would require a fair bit of restraint to not return fire from constant sniping while locking the area down though. It would, but if one US bullet touches one shrine then the fallout would be incalculable, let alone a 500lb bomb or hellfire. Better to not be anywhere near there in the first place, IMO. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2004, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetical-battle-at-the-tomb-of-imam-hussein/245098/7 "2004-05-14T13:29:10Z")
> [@SentientMeat](#): > > I don’t believe they would “not realise the significance” of the Shrine, given its enormous size and its splendid gold domes. > > Indeed, there are machine gun holes in one golden dome already. Then I strongly hope my previous statement is hyperbole. I’m sure these people are deliberately trying to provoke a desecration they think will trigger an uprising. The game of getting Sadr is not worth the candle if it risks inflaming feelings further. ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2004, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetical-battle-at-the-tomb-of-imam-hussein/245098/8 "2004-05-14T13:35:37Z")
> [@SentientMeat](#): > > I don’t believe they would “not realise the significance” of the Shrine, given its enormous size and its splendid gold domes. > > However, US forces are hedging very close to [attacking the Shrine of Mohammed’s son Ali](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3713453.stm) in Najaf right now. (Indeed, there are machine gun holes in one golden dome already.) They seem to be encountering significant difficulty “locking down” the area. Well there’s realizing the significance when you’re standing there gazing at this magnificent shrine and realizing that the gun fire that just missed your head, which you quickly returned, came from the top window of said shrine. I’d still say that laying siege would be best as it avoids storming the place, but I don’t know how hard that would be for shrines deep inside cities. Could you have some of the more senior and moderate religious leaders become residents at current holy sites not yet used as refuges? ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2004, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetical-battle-at-the-tomb-of-imam-hussein/245098/9 "2004-05-14T13:44:27Z")
> [@](#): > > Well there’s realizing the significance when you’re standing there gazing at this magnificent shrine and realizing that the gun fire that just missed your head, which you quickly returned, came from the top window of said shrine. Of course, but the latter involves the possibility of an Arab TV camera filming you effectively firing on Mecca. > [@](#): > > Could you have some of the more senior and moderate religious leaders become residents at current holy sites not yet used as refuges? Unlikely, as Moqtada Sadr is accused of having at least one moderate Shia cleric _murdered_. 'Tis a tricky dilemma, no doubt, but pretty much _inevitable_ even from a viewpoint back in 2002, do you not think? ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2004, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetical-battle-at-the-tomb-of-imam-hussein/245098/10 "2004-05-14T13:52:16Z")
> [@SentientMeat](#): > > 'Tis a tricky dilemma, no doubt, but pretty much _inevitable_ even from a viewpoint back in 2002, do you not think? Personally, no. Then again I had the apparently outlandish hope that the US administration would be able to craft an appropriate nation building plan. Chalk me down as wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Aldebaran](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Aldebaran](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aldebaran)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2004, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetical-battle-at-the-tomb-of-imam-hussein/245098/11 "2004-05-14T14:39:51Z")
Well, I think you better not speculate on one single US soldier even trying to **enter** that place. Speculating on what would happen if they throw a bomb on it is about the same as speculating on what would happen if they throw a bomb on the Ka’aba. This to say: I don’t think that gives very good perspectives for the occupyers. And for the situation “West versus Islam” in general. You could of course ponder about the great opportunity to start WWIII overthere. Which gives of course once again new possibilities for the US War Industry and the fanatical crusade of Bush and his Maffia. Salaam. A ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2004, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetical-battle-at-the-tomb-of-imam-hussein/245098/12 "2004-05-14T14:46:14Z")
> [@Aldebaran](#): > > Speculating on what would happen if they throw a bomb on it is about the same as speculating on what would happen if they throw a bomb on the Ka’aba. I think you need to spell out what you mean for those who don’t have the background. If bombing is bad, how about bullet holes? ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2004, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetical-battle-at-the-tomb-of-imam-hussein/245098/13 "2004-05-14T14:46:50Z")
Salaam, **Alde**. As a Muslim, what would your feelings be upon watching such a battle? Do you believe that the defenders would have the right to use the Shrines (Karbala or the “less holy” mosque in Najaf) in such a way and direct your ire solely at the US forces, or would you express equal disgust at those Muslims for defiling the sites? ---
**Author:** ![Aldebaran](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Aldebaran](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aldebaran)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2004, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetical-battle-at-the-tomb-of-imam-hussein/245098/14 "2004-05-14T15:10:26Z")
There is no justification in using any place where the name of God is mentioned as a place for undertaking or fighting war battles. In no circumstances and at no place on this globe. So if those followers of Lunatic Al Sadr use the shrine as one of their locations to fight the occupation forces, the Shia authorities and the population should try by all means to get them out of there. Which is of course easier said then done. I think you can be sure of it that whenever something happens to the shrine, those who by their actions have contributed to this US attack shall get their share of outrage and condemnation. Which on its own shall however not be able to temper the outrage and fury and frustration of all the Muslims on this globe. I would not want to feed the uncountable people who then cry for bloody revenge. If the US wants to provoke what they so childish named " a domino effect" in our region… They can easily have it. It just isn’t going to be how they initially dreamed it out in their stupid arrogance. Which is of course only a detail. Salaam. A ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2004, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetical-battle-at-the-tomb-of-imam-hussein/245098/15 "2004-05-14T15:17:18Z")
So perhaps the organisation of some kind of public demonstration, with residents of Najaf and Karbala calling for the militia to evacuate the Shrines, would be the best approach? ---
**Author:** ![Aldebaran](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Aldebaran](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aldebaran)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2004, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetical-battle-at-the-tomb-of-imam-hussein/245098/16 "2004-05-14T15:20:12Z")
Tagos, Bullet holes already provoke once again to inflame my anger and fury with this whole US invasion and occupation. I would wish a few people to drop dead where they stand. Now. Instantly, while I write this. (I wish the same to a few other people but not in this context). Salaam. A ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2004, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetical-battle-at-the-tomb-of-imam-hussein/245098/17 "2004-05-14T15:27:29Z")
> [@](#): > > I would wish a few people to drop dead where they stand. Now. Instantly, while I write this. Be careful, friend. Salaam aleikum. ---
**Author:** ![Aldebaran](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Aldebaran](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aldebaran)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2004, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetical-battle-at-the-tomb-of-imam-hussein/245098/18 "2004-05-14T15:31:24Z")
> [@SentientMeat](#): > > So perhaps the organisation of some kind of public demonstration, with residents of Najaf and Karbala calling for the militia to evacuate the Shrines, would be the best approach? I have no view on the local situation. There are however reports that there was already a significant amount of pressure on Al Sadr and his “army” to get out of there. As I said: It is easier said then done. In my opinion people are first of all aware of it that by all means one should avoid inside fighting between those who follow Al Sadr and those who would like to see him miraculously vanish in the air. In my opnion the US hoped for such inside fighting to occur. It could easily spread and lead to the civil war they in my opinion also hoped for since a certain amount of time. Every opportunity providing reasons to the puppet-so-called-government for “asking for the US to stay”, is clearly an option now for the US administration. Salaam. A ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2004, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetical-battle-at-the-tomb-of-imam-hussein/245098/19 "2004-05-14T15:35:07Z")
I recall the Prophet’s uncle (Bob?) when discussing the difficulty of defending Meccah pointed out that if God thought it was important, He would protect it. ---
**Author:** ![Aldebaran](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Aldebaran](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aldebaran)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2004, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetical-battle-at-the-tomb-of-imam-hussein/245098/20 "2004-05-14T15:35:38Z")
> [@SentientMeat](#): > > Be careful, friend. Salaam aleikum. I think the world would be far better off if a few people who have the deaths of innocents on their warmongering bloody hands dropped dead instantly. That includes quite a few at other locations then you obviously have in mind 🙂 Salaam. A [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetical-battle-at-the-tomb-of-imam-hussein/245098.md?page=2)