# Hypothetical Kasich vs Sanders **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [August 14, 2015, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetical-kasich-vs-sanders/727857 "2015-08-14T18:38:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2015, 9:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetical-kasich-vs-sanders/727857/21 "2015-08-16T09:21:11Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Reagan Democrats were also fed up with ever increasing taxes. Back then inflation was high and tax brackets weren’t indexed, so inflation enabled Democrats to think they could get away with raising everyone’s taxes without having to pass new legislation. Instead, it led to a nationwide tax revolt. The main difference now and then is that there is no such rate of inflation to-day. Some measure of indexing is probably needed of course (but the same should be the case for the minimum wage). > [@](#): > > Democrats still can’t raise taxes in any way that would actually raise revenue, so they are stunted as a party no matter how many elections they win until they can figure out how to persuade people to pay more taxes. Why not? There are plenty of tax measures that are both broadly popular and would raise revenue such as reforming the corporate tax system, removing the payroll tax cap, and to a certain extent even raising the income tax on the higher brackets. Probably some sort of a national VAT is to be desired in the future, but that need not be advocated for immediately and can be portrayed as part of abolishing sales taxes-considering the Republicans have tried to sell a flat tax and a national sales tax as populist measures, I don’t see why it should be any different with this. > [@](#): > > It doesn’t help that so much of the democrats’ power base is now in the richest states. Something that should be speedily corrected of course, although say 50,000 Westside New Ager antivaxxer moms and gay San Franciscans changing their votes aren’t going to shift California when weighed against the enormous margins provided by the Hispanic and black vote. > [@](#): > > So you had the spectacle of Nancy Pelosi in 2012, with the expiration of the Bush tax cuts coming, pushing for the tax cuts to be preserved all the way up to $400,000/yr. Again, this is something that has to be corrected. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2015, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetical-kasich-vs-sanders/727857/22 "2015-08-18T04:01:43Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > It doesn’t help that so much of the democrats’ power base is now in the richest states. So you had the spectacle of Nancy Pelosi in 2012, with the expiration of the Bush tax cuts coming, pushing for the tax cuts to be preserved all the way up to $400,000/yr. Um, Nancy Pelosi is from San Francisco, yeah? And quite well-off herself. I don’t take her as representative of the Democratic Party in general. I agree that the Clinton/Pelosi nest-featherer faction need to be overthrown by a more economically progressive caucus. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2015, 11:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetical-kasich-vs-sanders/727857/23 "2015-08-18T11:39:14Z")
There’s no regional base for that. Pelosi still represents a rich state with rich constituents. Unless the Democrats have a plan for winning states like Kansas, they need states like New York and California to win. Which means being socially liberal and economically moderate. Democrats think they have an electoral majority now. They are not going to risk coalition shuffling when they think they have things well in hand. That’s why I laugh at liberals who think that America’s changing demographics is good for them. No, it’s good for DEMOCRATS, not liberals. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2015, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetical-kasich-vs-sanders/727857/24 "2015-08-18T14:46:10Z")
Um, actually, California has a lot of poor blacks who feel neglected by the Democratic Party. So do many states. So, really, the Dems have to go “left” on some issues or alienate part of their base even more. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2015, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetical-kasich-vs-sanders/727857/25 "2015-08-18T14:56:12Z")
And unless the Republicans have a plan for winning states like Connecticut, they need Texas to win. Big states are important. How is this surprising? ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2015, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetical-kasich-vs-sanders/727857/26 "2015-08-18T18:31:28Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > Um, actually, California has a lot of poor blacks who feel neglected by the Democratic Party. So do many states. So, really, the Dems have to go “left” on some issues or alienate part of their base even more. It’s a fractious coalition. Republicans have a similar problem. Ideologically they are against SS and Medicare. But in recent years they’ve been winning big margins among the elderly. That creates a problem for them. So the Republicans can’t really cut spending, and the Democrats can’t really increase revenues. Eventually something will give and the coalitions will shuffle again. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2015, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetical-kasich-vs-sanders/727857/27 "2015-08-19T03:26:07Z")
Democrats raise taxes, though! They don’t raise them by huge amounts in middle of a depression, no, because they don’t think that’s helpful. That’s what kept the stupid Bush tax cuts alive, I think. The Republicans are the ones who swore an illegal oath of fealty to Grover Norquist and _can’t,_ ever. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2015, 12:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetical-kasich-vs-sanders/727857/28 "2015-08-19T12:01:34Z")
There’s no need to. $3 trillion is plenty of money, and it rises substantially every year, faster than spending(since we’ve been controlling that too). The budget is now on a path to balance in 2-4 years. I fail to see a problem, unless Democrats want to tack on more spending rather than use the coming surplus to save SS and Medicare. If Republicans are smart, that’s the choice they’ll present to the electorate. Even now, the President wants to take money out of SS to fund disability. > **[Funding shortfall for Social Security disability program: Is it real?](https://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Politics/DC-Decoder/2015/0213/Funding-shortfall-for-Social-Security-disability-program-Is-it-real)** > > Republicans say Social Security’s support for people with disabilities will be 'broke' next year; the Obama budget suggests the system needs only a patch. But both sides agree: Something must be done by 2016. Disability runs out of money next year. The President’s fix(which Sanders supports) is to just take money out of Social Security to fund disability. That should be an election issue. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2015, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetical-kasich-vs-sanders/727857/29 "2015-08-19T15:04:16Z")
Uh, the President wants to fund SSDI (which is part of Social Security) with a larger chunk of the Social Security fund, which would fund it for 18 years instead of for one year before benefits are cut (by 19%). And the money lost to the “retirement” fund would last 18 years instead of 19 years before benefits are cut (by maybe 25%). If the retirement fund is ~340x the disability fund, that’s…a workable fix for now. And we have two census years before the deep cuts, so can presumably un- or re-gerrymander Congress so that progressives can finally lift the cap on the payroll tax and solve this problem _permanently._ ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2015, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetical-kasich-vs-sanders/727857/30 "2015-08-19T15:09:01Z")
It only works permanently if the cap on payroll taxes isn’t accompanied by a cap on benefits. Then you fix the problem permanently, but now SS is a bigtime loser for the top 5% of taxpayers or so. It also changes the fundamental nature of the program. Instead of a social insurance plan that benefits all taxpayers, it becomes welfare. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2015, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetical-kasich-vs-sanders/727857/31 "2015-08-19T15:11:32Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Disability runs out of money next year. The President’s fix(which Sanders supports) is to just take money out of Social Security to fund disability. That should be an election issue. Why? Transfers between the two funds have happened a number of times in the past, and they’ve always been regarded as bookkeeping, rather than an issue. The GOP is making an issue of it now, because it’s this year’s version of the $36,000 welfare queen: the fund’s supposedly going bust because people are gaming it to use it as welfare. Just the latest (OK, not the _latest_ anymore) bullshit GOP scare story. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2015, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetical-kasich-vs-sanders/727857/32 "2015-08-19T15:22:40Z")
Because it doesn’t deal with the problem. Secondly, I’m sure elderly voters would take a dim view of SS money being used to pay for disability. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2015, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetical-kasich-vs-sanders/727857/33 "2015-08-19T16:41:03Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Instead of a social insurance plan that benefits all taxpayers, it becomes welfare. Those are _synonyms._ _Social insurance plans_ benefit the whole populace not by giving every single taxpayerr positive returns, but by benefiting those with more need at the expense of those who have less need and can afford to fund them. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2015, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetical-kasich-vs-sanders/727857/34 "2015-08-19T16:43:27Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > It only works permanently if the cap on payroll taxes isn’t accompanied by a cap on benefits. I said _lift_ the cap, you screwball. Raise it to a higher level of income or abolish it entirely. SS suffers because compensation is so disparate, and FICA is capped, so FICA doesn’t touch most money made in this country. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2015, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetical-kasich-vs-sanders/727857/35 "2015-08-19T19:57:58Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Kasich [played a moderate](http://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/14/us/politics/john-kasich-republican-primary-presidential-election.html) on TV during the debate. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Sanders, easily. Kasich may be one of the “good” Republicans, but that’s only relatively speaking. > [@Frank](#): > > Kasich is a moderate, as Republicans go these days. Fooled you all. [He wants to ban teachers lounges.](http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/john-kasich-abolish-teacher-lounges) > [@](#): > > Ohio Gov. John Kasich (R) on Wednesday said that he would like to get rid of teachers’ lounges to reduce how much teachers worry about losing their jobs. > > **"So if I were, not president, but if I were king in America** , I would abolish all teachers’ lounges, where they sit together and worry about, ‘Woe is us.’" Nice to see he thinks he’s a six year old. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2015, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetical-kasich-vs-sanders/727857/36 "2015-08-20T04:03:15Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > I said _lift_ the cap, you screwball. Raise it to a higher level of income or abolish it entirely. SS suffers because compensation is so disparate, and FICA is capped, so FICA doesn’t touch most money made in this country. I mangled my language there. What I meant was that if you lift the cap on taxes but not the cap on benefits, then it solves the problem. But it also fundamentally changes the program. THen there’s the fact that rich state Democrats want a donut hole, which means the problem is not solved and benefit cuts will still be required. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2015, 9:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetical-kasich-vs-sanders/727857/37 "2015-08-20T09:47:24Z")
Well, _I_ don’t want a donut hole. But you can cap pension payouts without having to cap payroll taxes. Remember “means-testing”? Well, we don’t have to means-test you to realize that if we’re paying you $2 million a month in pension that that’s probably excessive. So we have a formula whereby the high end is brought down and the low end is brought up. We actually already do some of this. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2015, 12:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetical-kasich-vs-sanders/727857/38 "2015-08-20T12:05:32Z")
Means testing is a sound way to save Social Security. But you do understand why Democrats have historically opposed it, right? I just want you to know what you’re getting into here. My side is going to use the big change in SS to mount an offensive against the program, which will enjoy much weaker support once that change is made. ---
**Author:** ![Gedd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gedd/32/4938_2.png) [@Gedd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gedd)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2015, 12:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetical-kasich-vs-sanders/727857/39 "2015-08-20T12:36:33Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > Fooled you all. > [He wants to ban teachers lounges.](http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/john-kasich-abolish-teacher-lounges) > > Nice to see he thinks he’s a six year old. I don’t get this guy. Has he been inside a school since he graduated? Does he realize the teacher’s lounge is empty 98% of the time? Does he have the same thought on break rooms in police stations, fire stations, and all goverment offices or does he just harbour special hatered of teachers? If he were king he would take away their freedom to assembly, the irony. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2015, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetical-kasich-vs-sanders/727857/40 "2015-08-20T15:53:36Z")
Not only that, but teachers’ lounges aren’t just break rooms. In fact, they’re usually labeled as “work rooms”, and with good reason: That’s where the copier usually is, for instance, and other materials and equipment teachers need to prepare for their lessons. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetical-kasich-vs-sanders/727857.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetical-kasich-vs-sanders/727857.md?page=3)