# Hypothetical question about pumping water **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [August 31, 2026, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetical-question-about-pumping-water/1032726 "2026-08-31T20:28:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2026, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetical-question-about-pumping-water/1032726/61 "2026-09-14T15:22:53Z")
> [@TokyoBayer](#): > > > [@ricepad](#): > > > > OTOH, you usually (but not always) own the rights to water IN the ground. > > Nope. Not in Utah. You need to purchase water rights before drilling a well. So “not always” didn’t cover the situation in Utah? ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2026, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetical-question-about-pumping-water/1032726/62 "2026-09-14T15:38:42Z")
It’s not usual, at least in Utah and a lot of Western states. I don’t know the specifics of other states so I only specified Utah, but it’s true for a lot of the country. Maybe back east it’s usual, but not in much of the west. ---
**Author:** ![ricepad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b38774/32.png) [@ricepad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ricepad)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2026, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetical-question-about-pumping-water/1032726/63 "2026-09-14T15:40:38Z")
That’s interesting about Utah water. IANAL, but the fee simple estate includes all rights to a property: surface, subterranean, and air. Theoretically a wedged slice which is a point at the center of the earth, and opening up to infinity in the sky. Different jurisdictions place practical limits on the fee simple estate, but I didn’t know Utah did so with water rights. Makes sense, though, considering how rare a resource water is in Utah. ---
**Author:** ![ricepad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b38774/32.png) [@ricepad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ricepad)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2026, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetical-question-about-pumping-water/1032726/64 "2026-09-14T15:42:10Z")
> [@TokyoBayer](#): > > Maybe back east it’s usual, but not in much of the west. In California, you own the rights to water within your property’s boundaries, unless those rights were severed under prior ownership. Again, I am not a lawyer, and I’m speaking in generalities. There are always exceptions. ---
**Author:** ![Crafter\_Man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crafter_man/32/458_2.png) [@Crafter\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crafter_Man)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2026, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetical-question-about-pumping-water/1032726/65 "2026-09-14T16:04:02Z")
I live in a rural area of Ohio. All the homes around here are on wells, and (AFAIK) water rights are not needed. But there’s a guy a few miles from me who has a home-business of filling swimming pools. Even though we have a lot of ground water here, I often wonder how he’s allowed to take all of that water for “free” and sell it. I’m not sure if there’s a state law that addresses the commercial use of ground water. I’m going to look into it. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2026, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetical-question-about-pumping-water/1032726/66 "2026-09-14T16:25:02Z")
> [@ricepad](#): > > In California, you own the rights to water within your property’s boundaries, unless those rights were severed under prior ownership. It looks like there are some restrictions in some cases: > Groundwater use was largely unregulated by the state until the passage of the 2014 Sustainable Groundwater Management Act (SGMA). This law requires local agencies to address the undesirable impacts of overpumping and to bring their basins into balance by ending long-term overdraft. It does look like it was a free-for-all before, but that seems to be changing. ---
**Author:** ![ricepad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b38774/32.png) [@ricepad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ricepad)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2026, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetical-question-about-pumping-water/1032726/67 "2026-09-14T16:34:02Z")
> [@TokyoBayer](#): > > It does look like it was a free-for-all before, but that seems to be changing. That could well be. IMO, California needs to overhaul the entire issue of water rights, but it goes beyond that to the federal level, too. OTOH, I stopped caring on a professional level in 2015 when I retired, so I stopped paying much attention to the property rights game. ---
**Author:** ![steatopygia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steatopygia/32/3132_2.png) [@steatopygia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steatopygia)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2026, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetical-question-about-pumping-water/1032726/68 "2026-09-17T22:47:31Z")
Did not expect to come across a Warren Miller reference in this thread. Good job! ---
**Author:** ![ricepad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b38774/32.png) [@ricepad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ricepad)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2026, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetical-question-about-pumping-water/1032726/69 "2026-09-17T22:56:33Z")
Well, it’s getting to be about that time of year. Plus, Outside TV has been running a WM marathon for the last couple of weeks (at least) on YT. ---
**Author:** ![HoneyBadgerDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/honeybadgerdc/32/1033_2.png) [@HoneyBadgerDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HoneyBadgerDC)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2026, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetical-question-about-pumping-water/1032726/70 "2026-09-17T23:09:21Z")
Could you dig a well on your property 50 ft deep and then drill horizontal into the lake from the bottom of your well? Pumping it up should not be a big deal with the pump at the bottom. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2026, 12:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetical-question-about-pumping-water/1032726/71 "2026-09-18T12:21:26Z")
It isn’t a question about a lake with restricted rights. It’s a question about the physics of suction. With a misleading dumb story about a lake mixed in to confuse people. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2026, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetical-question-about-pumping-water/1032726/72 "2026-09-18T12:32:38Z")
Just for your information, the swimming pool at the now sadly-gone Palisade Amusement Park in New Jersey was filled with salt water drawn from the Hudson River, Amazingly, the pool was emptied every evening and refilled every morning with water drawn from the Hudson, filtered, then sent up to the Park. The pool was 200 feet above the Hudson, and the pipe was 36" in diameter. Apparently there were no “break tanks”. The pump house was located on River Road along the Hudson, and used three 600 HP Westinghouse pumps to push the water uphill to the pool. The system was in use for years. So it’s not outrageous or a major difficulty to place your pumps at the bottom and have them pumping huge amounts of water every day throughout the summer . The pool was opened in 1912 and used until the park closed in 1971. > **[NJ Cruise News](https://www.njcruisenews.com/palisades_park)** > **[Palisades Amusement Park Historical Society](https://www.palisadespark.com/faqs.html)** > **[Palisades Amusement Park](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palisades_Amusement_Park)** > > Palisades Amusement Park was a 38-acre amusement park located in Bergen County, New Jersey, across the Hudson River from New York City. It was located atop the New Jersey Palisades, lying partly in Cliffside Park and partly in Fort Lee. The park operated from 1898 until 1971, remaining one of the most visited amusement parks in the country until its closure, after which a high-rise luxury apartment complex was built on its site. The park overlooked the Hudson River on 30 acres (12 ha) of New Je... ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2026, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetical-question-about-pumping-water/1032726/73 "2026-09-18T15:03:51Z")
You would think they could use the 200’ head to drive a generator to partially offset the power draw of the pumps during the exchange. Like an elevator counterweight. ---
**Author:** ![jnglmassiv](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f07891/32.png) [@jnglmassiv](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jnglmassiv)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2026, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetical-question-about-pumping-water/1032726/74 "2026-09-18T15:54:36Z")
> [@HoneyBadgerDC](#): > > Could you dig a well on your property 50 ft deep and then drill horizontal into the lake from the bottom of your well? Interesting proposal. At first, I was going to say that I cannot imagine that the easement for a water access pipe would be understood to be anything but a pipe and possibly other ancillary hardware on the surface. But pipes outdoors like this are primarily buried: not on the surface. So then, at what point does reasonable pipe excavations for routine burial installation become unnecessary drilling and beyond the easement? ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2026, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetical-question-about-pumping-water/1032726/75 "2026-09-18T16:02:50Z")
Sure. By letting the water you just pumped up run back down another pipe to the bottom, but with that pipe containing a generator near the bottom. Congrats: you’ve invented perpetual motion. You have a 200 foot head versus down at the river, but roughly zero head versus the elevation where the pool is. ---
**Author:** ![robby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robby/32/11048_2.png) [@robby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robby)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2026, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetical-question-about-pumping-water/1032726/76 "2026-09-18T16:10:14Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > Sure. By letting the water you just pumped up run back down another pipe to the bottom, but with that pipe containing a generator near the bottom. > > Congrats: you’ve invented perpetual motion. > > You have a 200 foot head versus down at the river, but roughly zero head versus the elevation where the pool is. You could actually do this. And it’s not perpetual motion because of head losses in the pipe (i.e. frictional forces) and because generators are not perfectly efficient. But you certainly could recover _some_ energy by emptying the pool at night down the same pipe and running the water through a turbine at the bottom. The whole concept is similar to regenerative braking in electric cars. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2026, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetical-question-about-pumping-water/1032726/77 "2026-09-18T16:32:14Z")
Good point. I probably misunderstood @eschereal’s intent. I was thinking they were thinking of diverting some of the upward flow at the top right back down at the time. To generate power to (help) run the pumps at that moment. Which of course amounts to perpetual motion if round-trip lossless (impossible) and pure waste if round-trip lossy (for certain). But yeah, treating the pool as a miniature pumped storage system that’s filled from the river by pumps once per day then drained through generators back into the river once per day makes complete sense. As you say, there won’t be 100% recovery, but there will be some. _If_ they have a way to use / store / sell the electricity they generate during the drain phase. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2026, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetical-question-about-pumping-water/1032726/78 "2026-09-18T16:36:35Z")
To complete the elevator analogy, simply don’t let the pool go dry. Use power gathered from the water going down to help offset the power needed to pump water up. ---
**Author:** ![jnglmassiv](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f07891/32.png) [@jnglmassiv](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jnglmassiv)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2026, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetical-question-about-pumping-water/1032726/79 "2026-09-18T17:06:15Z")
> [@robby](#): > > The whole concept is similar to regenerative braking in electric cars. Pumped hydro storage is done at huge scale, this link has some drawings and that very cool photo at top. > **[Pumped storage hydropower explained: how it works and why it mattersPumped...](https://www.hydropower.org/factsheets/pumped-storage)** > > Pumped hydro storage is the world’s largest energy storage technology. Learn how it works, why it matters and how it supports wind and solar power. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2026, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetical-question-about-pumping-water/1032726/80 "2026-09-18T19:25:34Z")
> [@Pleonast](#): > > simply don’t let the pool go dry AIUI, what matters is head. 10,000 gallons of water 200’ up produces the same force as 1 gallon of water 200’ up. The pool would start with 212’ of head and at the end would have 200’ of head, which is about 5% less. If you literally want to drain the pool and refill it, you would lose a little return as it empties, but, of course, you have to have a reservoir for the water you pump up so that you can refill the dry pool after you get that babyruth out.        Obviously you will not get all of the pumping power back from the draining, you will have to get some from the local utility, especially if the reservoir is higher than the pool, but at least you can get some back. Then, you also have to re-treat the pool waste before you can dump it back into the river. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetical-question-about-pumping-water/1032726.md?page=3)