# Hypothetical scenario: Trump loses and goes 'scorched earth' on his way out. What does it look like? **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [September 13, 2020, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetical-scenario-trump-loses-and-goes-scorched-earth-on-his-way-out-what-does-it-look-like/920490 "2020-09-13T14:56:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2020, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetical-scenario-trump-loses-and-goes-scorched-earth-on-his-way-out-what-does-it-look-like/920490/61 "2020-09-14T19:37:36Z")
Even if they’re not, and even if Trump and his political allies are so inept that they can’t pull off the election heist, it’s not wrong to have these kinds of fears. We’ve gone far enough down this road already. I mean it’s good to be optimistic and hope that things will work out as they typically have - we can still do that while being prepared for the unthinkable. But not being prepared gives the opponents of democracy an opening. ---
**Author:** ![Lamoral](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lamoral/32/16078_2.png) [@Lamoral](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamoral)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2020, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetical-scenario-trump-loses-and-goes-scorched-earth-on-his-way-out-what-does-it-look-like/920490/62 "2020-09-14T19:40:04Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > My second worst nightmare is the military following Trump’s orders. > > My worst nightmare is the military not following the orders of the head of the civilian government. Not mine. In a situation where Trump is the head of the civilian government, I would be thrilled at the idea of the military NOT following his orders and in fact deposing him and declaring a military provisional government. This isn’t the military of Mexico or Myanmar that we’re talking about. By and large, the flag officers of the US military are great people, very smart, very competent, and very honorable. The graduates of the service academies take their honor codes very seriously - I have far greater trust in America’s generals and colonels and senior NCOs than I do in Donald Trump and Mitch McConnell. ---
**Author:** ![Mickyfinn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e19b73/32.png) [@Mickyfinn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mickyfinn)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2020, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetical-scenario-trump-loses-and-goes-scorched-earth-on-his-way-out-what-does-it-look-like/920490/63 "2020-09-14T23:05:36Z")
My biggest fear is, encouraged by him or not, his punybrain “2nd Amendment people” (his words) hit the streets (especially D.C.) to do what they feel is righteous and Christian and do whatever they can to keep the orange pustule in the White House. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2020, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetical-scenario-trump-loses-and-goes-scorched-earth-on-his-way-out-what-does-it-look-like/920490/64 "2020-09-14T23:19:42Z")
Even if Trump supporters wanted to go all “2nd Amendment,” there are no targets for them to go after. Suppose they scream “election was rigged for Biden.” So…what? Who are they going to go after? The Supreme Court? Biden? Pelosi? Their Democratic neighbor? The state legislature of Michigan? They have no targets. ---
**Author:** ![Manduck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/manduck/32/256_2.png) [@Manduck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Manduck)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2020, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetical-scenario-trump-loses-and-goes-scorched-earth-on-his-way-out-what-does-it-look-like/920490/65 "2020-09-14T23:38:08Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Who are they going to go after? The Supreme Court? Biden? Pelosi? Their Democratic neighbor? The state legislature of Michigan? > > They have no targets. Those are all targets ---
**Author:** ![TroutMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troutman/32/6721_2.png) [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2020, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetical-scenario-trump-loses-and-goes-scorched-earth-on-his-way-out-what-does-it-look-like/920490/66 "2020-09-14T23:53:04Z")
Their targets wouldn’t be people (hopefully). Your guess of state legislature is most likely - not to kill the legislators, but to disrupt government by occupying places like state capitols and courthouses. ---
**Author:** ![Akaj](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/akaj/32/145_2.png) [@Akaj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Akaj)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2020, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetical-scenario-trump-loses-and-goes-scorched-earth-on-his-way-out-what-does-it-look-like/920490/67 "2020-09-14T23:58:55Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Even if Trump supporters wanted to go all “2nd Amendment,” there are no targets for them to go after. > > Suppose they scream “election was rigged for Biden.” So…what? Who are they going to go after? The Supreme Court? Biden? Pelosi? Their Democratic neighbor? The state legislature of Michigan? > > They have no targets. No targets? You can’t go online without hearing about some preacher, state legislator or radio host – or POTUS – calling all Democrats evil anti-American anarchist child traffickers. A non-zero number of GOP supporters take that shit seriously, and quite a few of them are armed. It wouldn’t surprise me to see a few of them randomly shooting up crowds in any area they suspect to be mostly Democrats. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2020, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetical-scenario-trump-loses-and-goes-scorched-earth-on-his-way-out-what-does-it-look-like/920490/68 "2020-09-15T00:02:44Z")
I don’t worry about the blowhards who attend Trump’s rallies. They’re loud and assholish, and they’d probably get into a bar fight over Trump, but they’re not going to grab an assault rifle and kill anyone. I worry about the loner middle-aged white guy who got dishonorably discharged from the military, lives out in the sticks, has enough guns to have his own gun show, and is perpetually pissed off at the world - and thinks that his misery is the fault of liberals. We see them pop up once in a while, but between now and then Trump, his allies, and Russian trolls trigger these types with conspiracy theories, one of which finally sends them over the edge. And instead of one crank that pops up once in a while, we suddenly have a many-headed hydra. ---
**Author:** ![Kolak\_of\_Twilo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kolak_of_twilo/32/73_2.png) [@Kolak\_of\_Twilo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kolak_of_Twilo)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2020, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetical-scenario-trump-loses-and-goes-scorched-earth-on-his-way-out-what-does-it-look-like/920490/69 "2020-09-15T05:09:13Z")
Do you worry about someone like Michael Caputo, the assistant secretary of public affairs at the Department of Health and Human Services [who is busy spreading conspiracy theories about left-wing hit squads being trained to be put in action after the election if Trump refuses to step down?](https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/14/us/politics/caputo-virus.html?action=click&module=Top%20Stories&pgtype=Homepage) This is not some loner out in the woods. This is an official at HHS who is saying things like: > …when Donald Trump refuses to stand down at the inauguration, the shooting will begin…The drills that you’ve seen are nothing. > If you carry guns, buy ammunition, ladies and gentlemen, because it’s going to be hard to get > There are scientists who work for this government who do not want America to get well, not until after Joe Biden is president. Caputo isn’t some crank on the fringes - he is a high ranking official at HHS. He has been interfering in reports the CDC has tried to put out when he thinks what they are saying contradicts what the President says. Do you worry about the fact that Trump buddy [Roger Stone is encouraging POTUS to arrest Zuckerberg, the Clintons and Tim Cook if he loses?](https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/sep/13/roger-stone-to-donald-trump-bring-in-martial-law-if-you-lose-election) Stone also is also encouraging Trump to declare martial law if he loses and crush the opposition? Do you not think Bill Barr will find any pretext he can to support such actions and deploy federal agents to carry out these arrests? I don’t find myself actively worrying about these scenarios but when government officials appointed by Trump and one of his close friends talk like this it does give me pause to consider how things could take a very ugly turn after Election Day. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2020, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetical-scenario-trump-loses-and-goes-scorched-earth-on-his-way-out-what-does-it-look-like/920490/70 "2020-09-15T13:32:20Z")
Agreed on all points. Moreover, even if this is just bluffing and bluster, it still normalizes the thoughts, which is how government or politically-orchestrated conspiracy theories work. They are intended to make people believe that you can’t really know the truth, that you can’t believe the reports that you see on television or in print, and that you can’t trust “facts” because science is reported by humans, and humans are political. People don’t understand the purpose behind smearing Fauci or climate scientists for that matter: it’s not to smear them as individuals. It’s to tear down the idea that facts can be reported fairly and without bias. The same is true of launching conspiracy theories against the Clintons, the Obamas, or the Bidens, accusing them of imagined crimes they committed while the administration blatantly commits actual crimes of its own - even treason, arguably. Trump and the GOP have broken so many political norms (and I dare say laws as well) that they almost compel an investigation and response by Democrats should they regain power. And yet, should they follow through, they would in a sense be proving the conspiracy theorists right: “See, they really _are_ out to get us!” ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2020, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetical-scenario-trump-loses-and-goes-scorched-earth-on-his-way-out-what-does-it-look-like/920490/71 "2020-09-15T14:56:19Z")
> [@Fiddle\_Peghead](#): > > This seems so far over the top that I truly question your rationality on this subject. I don’t mean to be over the top myself, but start a war with the third\* most powerful country militarily, and one of the strongest that the world has ever seen? It was asked what would be the worst things that he could do in a scorched earth scenario. That is what I am answering. My rationality is just fine, thank you very much. > [@Fiddle\_Peghead](#): > > On what possible pretext would Trump use to do this? I’m assuming you don’t think he really needs one, but I’d be interested to hear it if you do. You are right, he doesn’t need one. The chain of command is clear. Short of, as I said, his cabinet invoking the 25th, he doesn’t need a reason or a pretext. > [@Fiddle\_Peghead](#): > > And how would this keep him in office anyway (or whatever it’s supposed to do for him)? The OP is not about him staying in office, it is about the damage that he may do on the way out. He’s a toddler on a tantrum, wanting to break all the toys rather than give them to someone else. You know how when people get foreclosed on or evicted, they tend to tear the place up, tear out walls and carpeting? What pretext do they do that under? How does that keep them from being removed? I do question your reading of the OP, or lack thereof, to have responded to my post in such a way. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2020, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetical-scenario-trump-loses-and-goes-scorched-earth-on-his-way-out-what-does-it-look-like/920490/72 "2020-09-15T14:56:35Z")
And it will end up just like 1916. Them dead. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2020, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetical-scenario-trump-loses-and-goes-scorched-earth-on-his-way-out-what-does-it-look-like/920490/73 "2020-09-15T15:11:45Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Who are they going to go after? The Supreme Court? Biden? Pelosi? Their Democratic neighbor? The state legislature of Michigan? > **[Rwandan genocide](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rwandan_genocide)** > > The Rwandan genocide, also known as the genocide against the Tutsi, occurred from 7 April to 19 July 1994 during the Rwandan Civil War. Over a span of around 100 days, members of the Tutsi ethnic group, as well as some moderate Hutu and Twa, were systematically killed by Hutu militias. While the Rwandan Constitution states that over 1 million people were killed, most scholarly estimates suggest between 500,000 and 662,000 Tutsi died. The genocide was marked by extreme violence, with vict The ... ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2020, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetical-scenario-trump-loses-and-goes-scorched-earth-on-his-way-out-what-does-it-look-like/920490/74 "2020-09-15T15:13:27Z")
Maybe you trust their judgement, and maybe you should. But, if they set that precedent, that the military’s judgement should sometimes supersede that of the civilian government, are you sure that you trust the judgement of the military commanders in the future? ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2020, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetical-scenario-trump-loses-and-goes-scorched-earth-on-his-way-out-what-does-it-look-like/920490/75 "2020-09-15T15:17:18Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Who are they going to go after? The Supreme Court? Biden? Pelosi? Their Democratic neighbor? The state legislature of Michigan? Yes. Is your “So what?” that you don’t care that they will go after these targets? > [@Velocity](#): > > They have no targets. Except the ones that you just named. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2020, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetical-scenario-trump-loses-and-goes-scorched-earth-on-his-way-out-what-does-it-look-like/920490/76 "2020-09-15T15:29:36Z")
With all due respect, the Tutsi and Hutu genocide was an intense ethnic/tribal conflict that had been building for quite some time. I don’t know if I would quite go so far as to use Rwanda as an appropriate analogy. There’s definitely an element of ethnic tension and racial animus, but I think America’s conflicts are more about cultural, social, political identity and defining what “America” is. Race is a part of that conflict for sure, but it doesn’t completely define it, IMO. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2020, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetical-scenario-trump-loses-and-goes-scorched-earth-on-his-way-out-what-does-it-look-like/920490/77 "2020-09-15T15:30:53Z")
It’s an example of the direction the US is going in. Perhaps not tomorrow, but given the trajectory your country is on, this is the end result. ---
**Author:** ![Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/elmer_j.fudd/32/1211_2.png) [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elmer_J.Fudd)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2020, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetical-scenario-trump-loses-and-goes-scorched-earth-on-his-way-out-what-does-it-look-like/920490/78 "2020-09-15T18:59:57Z")
I just heard on NPR that the day after Election Day is the first date on which the US can officially withdraw from the Paris climate accord. No doubt, Trump will do so, even if it is obvious that the new president wants the US to stay. Have previous lame duck presidents proactively done anything like this? ---
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2020, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetical-scenario-trump-loses-and-goes-scorched-earth-on-his-way-out-what-does-it-look-like/920490/79 "2020-09-15T19:21:27Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > Refusing to concede would be a serious break from that norm, even if the electoral college ultimately votes to declare Biden the winner. The Republicans in general and Trump in particular have been doing that for several years now, starting with a Supreme Court vacancy delayed for ten months. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2020, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetical-scenario-trump-loses-and-goes-scorched-earth-on-his-way-out-what-does-it-look-like/920490/80 "2020-09-15T19:43:47Z")
> [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](#): > > I just heard on NPR that the day after Election Day is the first date on which the US can officially withdraw from the Paris climate accord. No doubt, Trump will do so, even if it is obvious that the new president wants the US to stay. Have previous lame duck presidents proactively done anything like this? This thread may interest you: [What's the most damaging thing a lame duck president has ever done? - #10 by aurora\_maire](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-most-damaging-thing-a-lame-duck-president-has-ever-done/920475/10) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetical-scenario-trump-loses-and-goes-scorched-earth-on-his-way-out-what-does-it-look-like/920490.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetical-scenario-trump-loses-and-goes-scorched-earth-on-his-way-out-what-does-it-look-like/920490.md?page=5)