# Hypothetical: Should the military overthrow Trump? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 3, 2017, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetical-should-the-military-overthrow-trump/778874 "2017-02-03T02:09:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2017, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetical-should-the-military-overthrow-trump/778874/81 "2017-02-05T05:08:08Z")
Ah, yes, Mattis, the guy the previous administration reined in because he was champing at the bit to attack the one country in the region that has the best chance of becoming a proper ally and force for progress. Sounds like just the man to put your faith in. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2017, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetical-should-the-military-overthrow-trump/778874/82 "2017-02-05T12:42:20Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > There were no nukes back then. There was little understanding of their capabilities and of fallout. Further, Japan had attacked us and would not surrender, despite quite obviously losing the war. **And the Japanese Empire really was an existential threat to us, at least at its height**. No, come on. No. I’ll give you the rest even if some of it is debatable, but the bolded part is horse manure. Not only did Japan never ever, even in its wildest dreams, have anything like the capability to mount a trans-pacific invasion (much less while they were still getting their hineys kicked about China the whole time), but even their nuttier nutjobs never envisioned anything like that. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2017, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetical-should-the-military-overthrow-trump/778874/83 "2017-02-05T14:00:31Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > No, come on. No. I’ll give you the rest even if some of it is debatable, but the bolded part is horse manure. Not only did Japan never ever, even in its wildest dreams, have anything like the capability to mount a trans-pacific invasion (much less while they were still getting their hineys kicked about China the whole time), but even their nuttier nutjobs never envisioned anything like that. At its height, the Japanese Empire was, roughly, as powerful as the US. They’d almost certainly lose an attempt at an invasion, especially were they alone without the rest of the Axis, but powerful enough still to threaten the existence of the US. IMHO. But this is a very small part of my argument, so feel free to disregard it. I think it stands without this point as well. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2017, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetical-should-the-military-overthrow-trump/778874/84 "2017-02-05T14:54:18Z")
> [@Throatwarbler\_Mangrove](#): > > Related question I heard brought up in a podcast recently. If the British parliament or courts decided to reneg on leaving the European Union, should the British army seize/arrest parliament and the PM? I presume since in theory the army answers to the queen, this could be done legally if there was royal assent. No. Just No. The Queen is a constitutional monarch and has only those legal powers that are granted to her by the constitution and statute. There is a web of laws that place the British military under civilian control, through the Cabinet. Her Majesty has no legal authority to destroy Parliament and Cabinet government. The last one who tried that got shortened. And the English live by precedent. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2017, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetical-should-the-military-overthrow-trump/778874/85 "2017-02-05T15:00:00Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > No, come on. No. I’ll give you the rest even if some of it is debatable, but the bolded part is horse manure. Not only did Japan never ever, even in its wildest dreams, have anything like the capability to mount a trans-pacific invasion (much less while they were still getting their hineys kicked about China the whole time), but even their nuttier nutjobs never envisioned anything like that. Wow. Remember Pearl Harbor? Remember that Japan controlled huge swaths of China and East Asia? Bet you don’t remember The Great Rice Offensive. Millions were suffering and starving. Nukes were the only mechanism short of absolute conquest that would have forced Japanese militarists to give up power. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2017, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetical-should-the-military-overthrow-trump/778874/86 "2017-02-05T15:04:00Z")
And how did that pose an existentialist threat to the United States? The US had far greater industrial and thus military resources than Japan, including the ability ultimately to take the war to the home islands of Japan itself and destroy the Japanese government. Are you saying that Japan could have invaded the US, overthrown the US government, and imposed a Japanese-written constitution on the US? Because that’s what an existentialist threat looks like. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2017, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetical-should-the-military-overthrow-trump/778874/87 "2017-02-05T15:13:32Z")
They did attack and overrun US territories and attack the US Pacific Fleet without declaring war. They seemed like a threat to me. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2017, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetical-should-the-military-overthrow-trump/778874/88 "2017-02-05T15:24:30Z")
The statement that **Kobal2** was responding to was that Japan posed an “existentialist threat” to the United States. Yes, Japan attacked the US, at Pearl, the Philippines and elsewhere. But at most, that was a fight about how much power the US could exercise in the Pacific. There is no way that Japan could put the existence of the US in issue. The reverse was true. The United States had the power: • to outmatch the Japanese navy, because of the much greater industrial and material resources of the United States; • to invade the home islands; • to kill massive numbers of Japanese by dropping two bombs, with more in the pipeline; • to enforce near-unconditional surrender on Japan; • to occupy Japan; • to re-write the Constitution of Japan and require that Japan adopt the re-written Constitution. That’s an existentialist threat. Japan’s ability to attack US possessions in the Pacific was not. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2017, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetical-should-the-military-overthrow-trump/778874/89 "2017-02-05T15:31:30Z")
The very act of attacking Pearl Harbor proved the Japanese thought they were… The attack wasn’t a real world ‘The Mouse That Roared’ scenario. A real world example of a mouse defeating the elephant was the Manchu conquest of China. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2017, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetical-should-the-military-overthrow-trump/778874/90 "2017-02-05T15:42:41Z")
That’s not supported by the Japanese war plans, which were for a limited war to secure their hegemony over the resource-rich Dutch East India colonies. As summarized by [wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pacific_War#Japanese_preparations): > [@](#): > > **Japanese planning was for fighting a limited war where Japan would seize key objectives and then establish a defensive perimeter to defeat Allied counterattacks, which in turn would lead to a negotiated peace.** [78] **The attack on the US Pacific Fleet at Pearl Harbor, Hawaii, with carrier-based aircraft of the Combined Fleet was to give the Japanese time to complete a perimeter.** The initial period of the war was divided into two operational phases. The First Operational Phase was further divided into three separate parts in which the major objectives of the Philippines, British Malaya, Borneo, Burma, Rabaul and the Dutch East Indies would be occupied. The Second Operational Phase called for further expansion into the South Pacific by seizing eastern New Guinea, New Britain, Fiji, Samoa, and strategic points in the Australian area. In the Central Pacific, Midway was targeted as were the Aleutian Islands in the North Pacific. **Seizure of these key areas would provide defensive depth and deny the Allies staging areas from which to mount a counteroffensive.** > > … > > **The Japanese leadership was aware that a total military victory in a traditional sense against the USA was impossible; the alternative would be negotiating for peace after their initial victories, which would recognize Japanese hegemony in Asia.** [79] In fact, the Imperial GHQ noted, should acceptable negotiations be reached with the Americans, the attacks were to be canceled—even if the order to attack had already been given. The Japanese leadership looked to base the conduct of the war against America on the historical experiences of the successful wars against China (1894–95) and Russia (1904–05), in both of which a strong continental power was defeated by reaching limited military objectives, not by total conquest.[79] However, this is turning into a hijack of this thread, so I’ll stop now. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2017, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetical-should-the-military-overthrow-trump/778874/91 "2017-02-05T16:47:40Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > Wow. Remember Pearl Harbor? Remember that Japan controlled huge swaths of China and East Asia? Bet you don’t remember The Great Rice Offensive. Millions were suffering and starving. Nukes were the only mechanism short of absolute conquest that would have forced Japanese militarists to give up power. Yes. And yet, it never posed a direct threat to the US (nor intimated otherwise), much less an existential one - at the very worst it threatened its overseas possessions of Guam & the Philippines. Which, much like French Indochina and British India, were kind of shitty things to be having to begin with. Not that they were any better off under the Japanese, natch, but still. Guam’s \*still \*not an actual State, BTW. Never ever in the history of ever did the Japanese 1) think they could invade the mainland US or destroy its government, industry or people nor 2) have any desire whatsoever to do so. Their goal was to eclipse the Western powers in Asia and become the big dog there, no less but no more. So calling Imperial Japan an “existential threat” is silly. They were bad enough as they were, no need to make them into boogeymen. or, yanno, what\*\* Northern Piper\*\* said better 😛 ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2017, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetical-should-the-military-overthrow-trump/778874/92 "2017-02-05T17:59:55Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > If we had good evidence that Trump wanted a first strike nuclear attack, and congress refused to remove him from power then I could see the benefit of a military coup. But other than that or him actually establishing an autocracy, I can’t really say its a good idea. The USA has always reserved the right of first use of nuclear weapons. That’s been American policy since they were invented. If Kennedy had called for use of a nuclear weapon in Cuba, should the military have staged a coup? ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2017, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetical-should-the-military-overthrow-trump/778874/93 "2017-02-05T18:49:22Z")
This is a stupid hypothetical, because if Trump really were so unpopular that a bloodless military coup really was possible, he’d have long since been impeached by Congress and removed from office. It’s like asking, “If you were Superman, would you kill Lex Luthor to prevent him from getting a gun and shooting a little old lady”. But if you were Superman, you could stop Lex from shooting Grandma without killing him, because you’re Superman. Use your heat vision to melt the gun. Use your super-speed fly in front of her and have it bounce off your invulnerable skin. Stretch your super-cape in front of the little old lady to catch the bullet (does Superman still have a super-cape in current continuity?). And on and on. Nope, instead we’ve got to come up with some convoluted post facto"the glue is acid" scenario so that ordinary actions can’t be done, and the only alternative is the hypothetical. Yawn. Impeach the motherfucker already, and leave the military out of it. ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2017, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetical-should-the-military-overthrow-trump/778874/94 "2017-02-05T21:22:24Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > Ah, yes, Mattis, the guy the previous administration reined in because he was champing at the bit to attack the one country in the region that has the best chance of becoming a proper ally and force for progress. Sounds like just the man to put your faith in. Mattis is also the guy grinning over Trump’s shoulder as Trump signs the infamous Travel Ban. (The Ban wasn’t Mattis’ idea, and he’s opposed such ideas in the past–yet he allowed himself to be used as a prop by Trump. That doesn’t speak well for his ability to stand up to Trump.) [https://mgtvwhtm.files.wordpress.com/2017/01/trump-executive-order-1-27.jpg?w=460](https://mgtvwhtm.files.wordpress.com/2017/01/trump-executive-order-1-27.jpg?w=460) ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2017, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetical-should-the-military-overthrow-trump/778874/95 "2017-02-05T22:35:54Z")
> [@Sherrerd](#): > > Mattis is also the guy grinning over Trump’s shoulder as Trump signs the infamous Travel Ban. (The Ban wasn’t Mattis’ idea, and he’s opposed such ideas in the past–yet he allowed himself to be used as a prop by Trump. That doesn’t speak well for his ability to stand up to Trump.) > > [https://mgtvwhtm.files.wordpress.com/2017/01/trump-executive-order-1-27.jpg?w=460](https://mgtvwhtm.files.wordpress.com/2017/01/trump-executive-order-1-27.jpg?w=460) Word is that neither he nor Pompeo knew the specific language of the EO, which would indicate that it was a Steve Bannon production. If that’s the case, it seems like Trump’s hierarchy had himself, Bannon, and Kushner at the top above all others and that there has been limited input from guys like Pompeo and Mattis, who in theory, ought to be the ones consulting back and forth with Trump on such matters. It’s a very top-down structure, which has already proven to be flawed. I suspect Trump is re-thinking this approach the last few days given the disastrous PR he’s received. Even if he takes solace in his support among hardcore supporters, he needed moderates to get him over the top and even the most delusional of Trump optimists have to know he’s taken a blow to his reputation already. As for the OP, no, crazy. We survived Nixon. We’ll survive Trump, too. We might not be the country we once were, but we’ve been a democracy in decline for a while now. I’m counting on the much-maligned Millennials to re-charge American democracy in the years to come. My generation, X, is too self-absorbed and risk-averse to take on that job. ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2017, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetical-should-the-military-overthrow-trump/778874/96 "2017-02-05T22:47:27Z")
It would take a lot more than he’s done to even suspect that was justified. ---
**Author:** ![Belowjob2.0](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Belowjob2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Belowjob2.0)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2017, 5:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetical-should-the-military-overthrow-trump/778874/97 "2017-02-06T05:55:37Z")
No coup. There’s no way the military as a whole would hold ranks and act in unison. It’s a mistake to speak of “the military” as a whole, acting with one unified purpose. Inter branch cooperation and coordination isn’t the easiest thing to achieve under the best of circumstances, much less so in a true crisis. There’s no reason to assume that the Army infantry and the Marines will be on the same side. No reason to assume that different divisions within the Army would not fight against each other. There are many law enforcement agencies, state, federal, and local, with some military equipment and training, and staffed with substantial numbers of ex-military personnel. They could be a factor in any type of coup. ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2017, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetical-should-the-military-overthrow-trump/778874/98 "2017-02-06T23:46:00Z")
Now, if you were to ask if the Joint Chiefs might do something, or a faction in the CIA or even Secret Service…maybe. ---
**Author:** ![Ulfreida](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ulfreida/32/8014_2.png) [@Ulfreida](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulfreida)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2017, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetical-should-the-military-overthrow-trump/778874/99 "2017-02-07T00:29:13Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > Nope. Poison his food. With plutonium. ---
**Author:** ![CookingWithGas](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cookingwithgas/32/485_2.png) [@CookingWithGas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CookingWithGas)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2017, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetical-should-the-military-overthrow-trump/778874/100 "2017-02-08T16:38:27Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Sarah Silverman recently took a different tact though It’s “tack,” as in sailing. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetical-should-the-military-overthrow-trump/778874.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetical-should-the-military-overthrow-trump/778874.md?page=6)