# Hypothetical situation regarding Kosher laws **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [June 24, 2013, 9:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetical-situation-regarding-kosher-laws/661769 "2013-06-24T09:51:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![JoseB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/joseb/32/1530_2.png) [@JoseB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoseB)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2013, 9:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetical-situation-regarding-kosher-laws/661769/1 "2013-06-24T09:51:52Z")
Hallo everybody! I don’t know if this is the proper forum for this post – It has to do with a somewhat weird hypothetical situation, but is at the same time related to a “real world” question. Moderators, if you think this is not the proper forum for this post, please change it. Anyway, here goes my hypothetical. Let’s imagine that an inhabitable Earth-like planet is discovered, and that we have the technology to send colonists over there. The biochemistry on the planet is compatible with us, and there are no sentient inhabitants – the place is available for us. Now, although we have the technology to send expeditions over there, it is _really_ expensive to send stuff there. Also, research shows that Earth plants don’t grow well over there. Luckily, humans can eat what is on that planet, although the life there does not really correspond to the classifications on Earth. There is not even a straight division between “plant” and “animal” life, fwiw. The powers that be have decided that the colonists who go there (basically on one-way trips) will not take along Earth animals – the space taken by them on the trip might be better used to carry essential tools and materials for the establishment of the colonies. OK, here goes my question – in these circumstances, imagining that among the colonists are Jewish people who are reasonably pious, how would it be determined whether what is on the other planet is kosher to eat or not? Also, who would have the authority to make such a determination? Taking into account that the beings there do not even appear to be classifiable according to Earthly biological lines. Just a silly question that has been bouncing in my head for a while. All the best! ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2013, 10:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetical-situation-regarding-kosher-laws/661769/2 "2013-06-24T10:36:59Z")
This situation already happened following the discovery of the Americas. Jews have argued for centuries over the permissibility of turkeys, so they would just argue for millenniums about what exactly if anything is kosher on your planet. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2013, 10:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetical-situation-regarding-kosher-laws/661769/3 "2013-06-24T10:49:07Z")
Yeah, it’s not like the folks in question can’t assess the situation themselves and reach a determination. And in the meantime each can reach their own conclusion. Plus, if that’s all there is for food, God will be ok on eating them until a determination is made. the kosher laws don’t require starving oneself to death in the absence of non-treyf. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2013, 10:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetical-situation-regarding-kosher-laws/661769/4 "2013-06-24T10:54:25Z")
> [@JoseB](#): > > OK, here goes my question – in these circumstances, imagining that among the colonists are Jewish people who are reasonably pious, how would it be determined whether what is on the other planet is kosher to eat or not? There are rules delineated in the Old Testament, with further commentary over the centuries. So the Jews will be counting toes on the plantimals and animaplants, trying to determine if any of them have cuds and chew them, trying to determine if the fish-equivalents have scale-equivelants or not, arguing whether the insect and arthropod like things are sufficiently like those things as to be off limits, and so forth. > [@](#): > > Also, who would have the authority to make such a determination? Rabbis. Just like on Earth. Presumably, also like on Earth, there will be differences of opinion between different groups of rabbis which is why we have different kosher certifications. > [@](#): > > Taking into account that the beings there do not even appear to be classifiable according to Earthly biological lines. The critters don’t have to be classifiable by the current scientific convention (in which case science will create a new hierarchy for the new planet). What matters are the criteria Jews use to determine kosher when encountering any new food which, as noted already occurred when the New World was discovered. I expect one of our actual Jewish authorities will be along shortly. You have broken tradition by NOT posting this during the Jewish sabbath, which is when we usually get this sort of question. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![JoseB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/joseb/32/1530_2.png) [@JoseB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoseB)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2013, 10:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetical-situation-regarding-kosher-laws/661769/5 "2013-06-24T10:56:38Z")
> [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > Yeah, it’s not like the folks in question can’t assess the situation themselves and reach a determination. And in the meantime each can reach their own conclusion. Plus, if that’s all there is for food, God will be ok on eating them until a determination is made. the kosher laws don’t require starving oneself to death in the absence of non-treyf. Thanks for the answer! Although I was under the impression that deciding what is and is not kosher was, at some level, in the hand of some kind of religious authority, not left to each individual. As an aside – I can imagine, given the apparent love that Jewish people have for arguing, that the discussions on the subject would be epic (disclaimer: I am not Jewish, but I have had the pleasure of spending whole nights talking with Jewish scholars about basically everything). ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2013, 11:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetical-situation-regarding-kosher-laws/661769/6 "2013-06-24T11:05:56Z")
“Two Jews, Three Opinions” as my Reb once told me. In terms of their being some governing body? There are a few, but none would have influence in a situation like you describe. Heck, they only have influence NOW because a large weight of Jews assign them authority. It could go away tomorrow. In the end, each Jew’s relationship with God is his/her own. Remember, rabbis are teachers, nothing more. Whether the student learns the lessons or heads off in their own direction is up to them. ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2013, 11:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetical-situation-regarding-kosher-laws/661769/7 "2013-06-24T11:35:02Z")
The sheer amount of time it takes to run all the world’s media and banking makes it very difficult to get discussion of kosher rules on to the agenda for meetings of the International Jewish Conspiracy, um, _Community_. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2013, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetical-situation-regarding-kosher-laws/661769/8 "2013-06-24T12:47:47Z")
I imagine god would come down and clarify the rules, no? ---
**Author:** ![Beelzebubba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ed8c4c/32.png) [@Beelzebubba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beelzebubba)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2013, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetical-situation-regarding-kosher-laws/661769/9 "2013-06-24T13:38:50Z")
There is a principle in Jewish law known as _ **Pikuach Nefesh** _ that places the preservation of human life above all any religious considerations, laws or rules. Under this principle, non-kosher foods may be eaten under the following circumstances- 1. If no kosher food is available and failure to eat non-kosher food may result in starvation. 2. If a non-kosher food product specifically is needed to cure an illness. So #1 would apply to this situation. ---
**Author:** ![Zsofia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/7bcc69/32.png) [@Zsofia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zsofia)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2013, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetical-situation-regarding-kosher-laws/661769/10 "2013-06-24T13:53:02Z")
But is it okay to knowingly put yourself in a situation where this is going to be an issue? Would it be moral for an observant Jew to volunteer as a space colonist knowing that he’s going to Planet Pork? ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2013, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetical-situation-regarding-kosher-laws/661769/11 "2013-06-24T14:08:56Z")
Until they get there and have an opportunity to argue over the matter they won’t know for sure one way or the other if there’s kosher food there, will they? So the first wave would be ethically in the clear. ---
**Author:** ![Quercus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/7ab992/32.png) [@Quercus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quercus)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2013, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetical-situation-regarding-kosher-laws/661769/12 "2013-06-24T14:43:12Z")
… and isn’t the general rule that an edible something is kosher unless there’s a specific reason that makes it not kosher? So some completely unclassifiable plantimal would be kosher, right? ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2013, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetical-situation-regarding-kosher-laws/661769/13 "2013-06-24T15:13:38Z")
> [@Quercus](#): > > So some completely unclassifiable plantimal would be kosher, right? No, you’d look at how this new plantimal fits into the rules and concepts that we use to categorize foodstuffs and decide if this qualifies as meat, non-meat, or unclean. The same is done when new foodstuffs are introduced here, and as was mentioned above, when the New World was explored. ---
**Author:** ![sciurophobic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cab0a1/32.png) [@sciurophobic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sciurophobic)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2013, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetical-situation-regarding-kosher-laws/661769/14 "2013-06-24T17:44:48Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > This situation already happened following the discovery of the Americas. Jews have argued for centuries over the permissibility of turkeys, so they would just argue for millenniums about what exactly if anything is kosher on your planet. How are turkeys not kosher? Did someone argue that they’re birds of prey? ---
**Author:** ![Zsofia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/7bcc69/32.png) [@Zsofia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zsofia)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2013, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetical-situation-regarding-kosher-laws/661769/15 "2013-06-24T19:04:05Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Until they get there and have an opportunity to argue over the matter they won’t know for sure one way or the other if there’s kosher food there, will they? So the first wave would be ethically in the clear. Yeah, but what if they knew? ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2013, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetical-situation-regarding-kosher-laws/661769/16 "2013-06-24T19:14:51Z")
> [@sciurophobic](#): > > How are turkeys not kosher? Did someone argue that they’re birds of prey? There are no criteria for whether birds are kosher, just a listing of species. > **[The Halachic Tale of Three American Birds: Turkey, Prairie Chic](https://www.kashrut.com/articles/ThreeBirds/)** > [@](#): > > Birds are categorically different.6 The Torah offers no identifying features to distinguish kosher from non-kosher species. It simply provides a listing (Lev. 11:13-19 and Deut. 14:11-18) of the 24 species7 of birds that are not kosher (Chullin 63b). By inference, the vast number of other bird species are kosher.8 Today, when the 24 non-kosher species can no longer be accurately identified, things are quite a bit more complicated. > > Although the Torah did not provide physical indicators by which to identify kosher fowl, the rabbis provided four identifying features to help categorize birds. The Mishnah (Chullin 3:6 [59a]) states: “every bird that is 1) dores (“a predator”) is not kosher.9 Every bird that has 2) an extra toe,10 3) a zefek (crop, the biblical more’eh , e.g. Lev. 1:16), and 4) a korkuvan (gizzard, “pupik” in Yiddish) whose inner lining can be peeled, is kosher.” From the link it appears that turkeys weren’t particularly controversial. ---
**Author:** ![Kzbre5m](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f08c70/32.png) [@Kzbre5m](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kzbre5m)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2013, 11:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetical-situation-regarding-kosher-laws/661769/17 "2013-06-25T11:04:41Z")
[QUOTE=JoseB] The powers that be have decided that the colonists who go there (basically on one-way trips) will not take along Earth animals – the space taken by them on the trip might be better used to carry essential tools and materials for the establishment of the colonies. [/QUOTE] You don’t read much science fiction, do you? [Larry Niven](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Larry_Niven) advocated bringing fertilized eggs to new worlds, the thinking being that it’s easier to make more animals (and not much equipment needed! 😉 ) than bringing a factory to build machinery, at least in terms of pack animals though I suppose for food too.