# Hypothetical: walked every at bat **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [November 11, 2009, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetical-walked-every-at-bat/517205 "2009-11-11T18:39:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2009, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetical-walked-every-at-bat/517205/21 "2009-11-12T04:15:05Z")
> [@ekweizn](#): > > I don’t think there’s anything in the rules that prevents someone from minimizing the size of their strike zone to try to draw a walk in every at-bat. There’s also nothing in the rules to prevent using a batter with a strike zone so small that it’s virtually impossible for a pitcher to hit it, as in Bill Veeck’s famous stunt with [Eddie Gaedel](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eddie_Gaedel) in 1951. The problem is, you have to take him out for a pinch-runner as soon as he walks. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2009, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetical-walked-every-at-bat/517205/22 "2009-11-12T04:29:23Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > There’s also nothing in the rules to prevent using a batter with a strike zone so small that it’s virtually impossible for a pitcher to hit it, as in Bill Veeck’s famous stunt with [Eddie Gaedel](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eddie_Gaedel) in 1951. The problem is, you have to take him out for a pinch-runner as soon as he walks. I thought they made that illegal about five minutes after the game. [Baseball Almanac](http://www.baseball-almanac.com/deaths/eddie_gaedel_obituary.shtml) > [@](#): > > Commissioner Happy Chandler was reported to have found the incident entertaining, but American League President Will Harridge felt different ordering Eddie Gaedel’s name expunged from the daily record sheets and banning midgets from baseball. ---
**Author:** ![StusBlues](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dc4da7/32.png) [@StusBlues](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StusBlues)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2009, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetical-walked-every-at-bat/517205/23 "2009-11-12T04:49:43Z")
> [@Snarky\_Kong](#): > > My friend and I didn’t really discuss it at length, and I’m not much of a baseball fan so a detailed argument never really came about. More of a “what do you think about…?” followed by “eh, there’d be better.” > > That’s a different question though. If the metric is filling a team with clones then that team is, as you say, infinitely good. However, consider a normal team with this play on it, and one exactly the same except that the player hits a home run 99% of the time and gets an out the other 1% of the time. Clearly a team full of the latter loses to a team full of the former. I think it’s also clear that the home run guy would be more productive under “normal” circumstances. Well, now you’re comparing hypotheticals. My intial response was to compare your hypothetical to the best real player (or at least nearly so). The hypothetical “walk every time” player is pretty clearly better than anyone who’s ever played. Allowing for some margin of error in James’ simulation, the automatic walker is at the very least an utterly elite player. I won’t try to compare him to the 99% home run guy–I’ve got no basis. ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2009, 5:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetical-walked-every-at-bat/517205/24 "2009-11-12T05:42:13Z")
> [@ekweizn](#): > > What’s stopping someone from adopting a stance that puts his shoulders in line with his knees, which would make throwing a strike almost impossible? While he wasn’t quite that extreme, Rickey Henderson batted out of a very pronounced crouch: [http://www.fansedge.com/Images/Product/33-97/33-97713-F.jpg](http://www.fansedge.com/Images/Product/33-97/33-97713-F.jpg) I don’t know how much the crouch had to do with it, but he _did_ have the second-highest walk total in MLB history – 2190, behind only Barry Bonds at 2558 (though, if you take out intentional walks, Henderson leads, 2129-1870). ---
**Author:** ![ekweizn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7c8e57/32.png) [@ekweizn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ekweizn)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2009, 5:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetical-walked-every-at-bat/517205/25 "2009-11-12T05:50:52Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > There’s also nothing in the rules to prevent using a batter with a strike zone so small that it’s virtually impossible for a pitcher to hit it, as in Bill Veeck’s famous stunt with [Eddie Gaedel](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eddie_Gaedel) in 1951. The problem is, you have to take him out for a pinch-runner as soon as he walks. Yeah, I looked into that loophole also. Because of that incident, the commissioner has to approve all contracts now, so signing a little person probably wouldn’t make it past the commissioner’s desk. I think it would be harder to justify nullifying a contract for a normal-sized person–especially if they didn’t reveal ahead of time that they were going to take the “batting stance” that I’m suggesting. ---
**Author:** ![Quercus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/7ab992/32.png) [@Quercus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quercus)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2009, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetical-walked-every-at-bat/517205/26 "2009-11-12T15:29:52Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > There’s also nothing in the rules to prevent using a batter with a strike zone so small that it’s virtually impossible for a pitcher to hit it, as in Bill Veeck’s famous stunt with [Eddie Gaedel](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eddie_Gaedel) in 1951. The problem is, you have to take him out for a pinch-runner as soon as he walks. Wasn’t that the incident that caused MLB to add the ‘making a travesty of the game’ clause? So, under current rules, the midget and the guy lying down would both be declared out and probably thrown out of the game by the umpire. [They guy lying down would probably also be out of the batter’s box, if the ump wanted something more solid to call him out for]. It’s an interesting question whether umps tend to account for slightly exaggerated crouches by calling balls & strikes according to where a player’s ‘armpits’ would be in a more upright stance. I assume that since we don’t really see many slightly exaggerated crouches, the loss of hitting ability more than balances any extra balls, but then again this is baseball, so we can’t assume the traditional way has really been tested. ---
**Author:** ![muldoonthief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldoonthief/32/3188_2.png) [@muldoonthief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muldoonthief)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2009, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetical-walked-every-at-bat/517205/27 "2009-11-12T17:25:21Z")
> [@MLB rules](#): > > The STRIKE ZONE is that area over home plate the upper limit of which is a horizontal line at the midpoint between the top of the shoulders and the top of the uniform pants, and the lower level is a line at the hollow beneath the kneecap. The Strike Zone shall be determined from the batter’s stance as the batter is prepared to swing at a pitched ball. > [@ekweizn](#): > > I don’t think there’s anything in the rules that prevents someone from minimizing the size of their strike zone to try to draw a walk in every at-bat. You can certainly make the argument that a stance where you’re laying flat on the ground isn’t “prepared to swing”. You could even make the argument that an extreme crouch such as you’re suggesting isn’t prepared to swing either. In the second case though, I’d guess the umpire would just call strikes as if the batter was in a normal stance. Given that there’s no recourse for reviewing balls & strikes, and complaining about them will get you ejected, such a player wouldn’t last past his first at bat. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2009, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetical-walked-every-at-bat/517205/28 "2009-11-12T17:41:34Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > I thought they made that illegal about five minutes after the game. > > [Baseball Almanac](http://www.baseball-almanac.com/deaths/eddie_gaedel_obituary.shtml) > [@ekweizn](#): > > Yeah, I looked into that loophole also. Because of that incident, the commissioner has to approve all contracts now, so signing a little person probably wouldn’t make it past the commissioner’s desk. According to the official rules of baseball, there isn’t a minimum stature for a player, so it isn’t illegal. However, as **ekweizn** says, a contract certainly wouldn’t be approved for a “player” like that today. As the Wiki article indicates, although Gaedel’s record was originally struck from the books, the following year it was reinstated, and in baseball references he is regarded as having officially participated in the game. > [@Quercus](#): > > Wasn’t that the incident that caused MLB to add the ‘making a travesty of the game’ clause? No, that rule was much earlier (1920) inspired by [Germany Schaefer’s](http://http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germany_Schaefer) “stealing” first base (from second): > [@](#): > > Schaefer was known as both a baseball trickster and a tactician in the early years of 20th century baseball. Well liked, stories of his exploits dot both the memories of his contemporaries and the newspaper reports of the time. One of his most famous exploits was stealing first base, which was perhaps erroneously recalled in Lawrence Ritter’s The Glory of Their Times by Detroit outfielder Davy Jones. With runners on first and third, a common ploy in baseball at the time was an attempted double steal, where the runner heading from first (in this case Schaefer) ran for second, hoping to draw a throw from the catcher as the runner on third tried to scamper home. The catcher did not throw the first time, inspiring Schaefer to steal first base in reverse and then attempt the double steal once more on the following pitch. It worked in Jones’ recollection although factual evidence of this is lacking. ---
**Author:** ![janeslogin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/df788c/32.png) [@janeslogin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/janeslogin)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2009, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetical-walked-every-at-bat/517205/29 "2009-11-12T17:52:59Z")
I don’t follow the sport but I recall stories told by classmates, perhaps in middle school about 1950, that the Saint Louis Cardinals had a pinch hitter who was quite skilled at hitting foul balls and was used to tire out opposing pitchers. ---
**Author:** ![ekweizn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7c8e57/32.png) [@ekweizn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ekweizn)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2009, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetical-walked-every-at-bat/517205/30 "2009-11-12T18:26:03Z")
> [@Quercus](#): > > [They guy lying down would probably also be out of the batter’s box, if the ump wanted something more solid to call him out for]. Each batter’s box is 6 feet by 4 feet, so it’s not a problem for most people. > [@muldoonthief](#): > > You can certainly make the argument that a stance where you’re laying flat on the ground isn’t “prepared to swing”. You could even make the argument that an extreme crouch such as you’re suggesting isn’t prepared to swing either. In the second case though, I’d guess the umpire would just call strikes as if the batter was in a normal stance. Given that there’s no recourse for reviewing balls & strikes, and complaining about them will get you ejected, such a player wouldn’t last past his first at bat. I disagree. It’s not hard to imagine an adult swinging a bat while in these “stances”; heck, the first time you do it, you might take a swing at the first pitch just to prove to the umpire that you can. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2009, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetical-walked-every-at-bat/517205/31 "2009-11-12T20:04:28Z")
A small person with some baseball talent would certainly have a successful lawsuit against the league. Then who defines what is too short. Is 5 ft 3 too short? ---
**Author:** ![John\_DiFool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_difool/32/19543_2.png) [@John\_DiFool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_DiFool)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2009, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetical-walked-every-at-bat/517205/32 "2009-11-13T01:20:32Z")
> [@janeslogin](#): > > I don’t follow the sport but I recall stories told by classmates, perhaps in middle school about 1950, that the Saint Louis Cardinals had a pinch hitter who was quite skilled at hitting foul balls and was used to tire out opposing pitchers. Not the same player, but Hall of Famer Luke Appling (White Sox) was famous for doing so. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2009, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetical-walked-every-at-bat/517205/33 "2009-11-13T02:31:05Z")
[The Baseball Guru's Page Not Found Page](http://baseballguru.com/attiyeh/bbread8.html) Foul balls were not kept in the olod days ,so no proof exists. I have seen 14 foul balls when I was a kid. I think it was Earl Torgeson. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2009, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetical-walked-every-at-bat/517205/34 "2009-11-13T03:17:01Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > [The Baseball Guru's Page Not Found Page](http://baseballguru.com/attiyeh/bbread8.html) Foul balls were not kept in the olod days ,so no proof exists. I have seen 14 foul balls when I was a kid. I think it was Earl Torgeson. That link says Appling, and goes back to 1940. Not bad. I’d imagine anything in the dead ball era and it starts decreasing as walks weren’t as desirable (or obtainable). ---
**Author:** ![42fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/4/b487fb/32.png) [@42fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/42fish)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2009, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetical-walked-every-at-bat/517205/35 "2009-11-13T15:19:40Z")
> [@Munch](#): > > He could also be the slowest player on the planet and he’d be the most valuable offensive player of all time. But what if he was so slow that he’d get thrown out at second on anything other than a home run (or the guy behind him also drawing a walk)? Just as long as we’re throwing out the wacky hypotheticals and all… ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2009, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetical-walked-every-at-bat/517205/36 "2009-11-13T15:29:26Z")
> [@42fish](#): > > But what if he was so slow that he’d get thrown out at second on anything other than a home run (or the guy behind him also drawing a walk)? Just as long as we’re throwing out the wacky hypotheticals and all… Well… Okay. There’s a limit on slowness. In that case, he’d be the most valuable pinch hitter of all time. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2009, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetical-walked-every-at-bat/517205/37 "2009-11-13T16:56:58Z")
Some accounts of Appling’s at bat say he fouled off 24 pitches, 14 of them being consecutive. Given the heavier bats, slower pitches and greater emphasis on contact of the dead ball era I suspect the record was set back then. Roy Thomas, who was just about the purest contact hitter ever in terms of getting on base but having no power at all, is claimed to have gotten as high as 20 fouls or more on a number of occasions. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2009, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetical-walked-every-at-bat/517205/38 "2009-11-13T17:59:27Z")
> [@kenobi\_65](#): > > While he wasn’t quite that extreme, Rickey Henderson batted out of a very pronounced crouch: > [http://www.fansedge.com/Images/Product/33-97/33-97713-F.jpg](http://www.fansedge.com/Images/Product/33-97/33-97713-F.jpg) I give you [Bert Campaneris, circa 1970](http://www.sportsmogul.com/vbulletin2/attachment.php?attachmentid=7211&d=1173325055). ---
**Author:** ![ekweizn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7c8e57/32.png) [@ekweizn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ekweizn)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2009, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetical-walked-every-at-bat/517205/39 "2009-11-13T19:31:17Z")
> [@kenobi\_65](#): > > While he wasn’t quite that extreme, Rickey Henderson batted out of a very pronounced crouch: > [http://www.fansedge.com/Images/Product/33-97/33-97713-F.jpg](http://www.fansedge.com/Images/Product/33-97/33-97713-F.jpg) > [@Lute Skywatcher](#): > > I give you [Bert Campaneris, circa 1970](http://www.sportsmogul.com/vbulletin2/attachment.php?attachmentid=7211&d=1173325055). Among power hitters, [Jeff Bagwell](http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_3BaJMgGKAmE/Slt6xl3h28I/AAAAAAAAK-M/fLGbJN7vAXI/s400/bagwell.jpg) (449 career home runs) has to be in the tops in pronounced crouching. His wikipedia article even claims that “Bagwell’s stance also allowed him to shrink his strike zone and walk more often.” I seem to recall he would vary his “crouched-ness” depending on the count, but don’t recall whether he used that specifically in his favor. ---
**Author:** ![Hawkeyeop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/958977/32.png) [@Hawkeyeop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hawkeyeop)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2009, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetical-walked-every-at-bat/517205/40 "2009-11-13T19:52:12Z")
> [@42fish](#): > > But what if he was so slow that he’d get thrown out at second on anything other than a home run (or the guy behind him also drawing a walk)? Just as long as we’re throwing out the wacky hypotheticals and all… Man, I’d hate to bat behind that guy. The next batter would hit .050 on the season with 400 double plays. And that is only if he was really good. I’d say that player would be of limited value. There are a few moments where he would be useful as a pinch hitter, like if the bases were loaded and you needed a run to win, but I don’t know that it would be worth using a roster spot. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetical-walked-every-at-bat/517205.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetical-walked-every-at-bat/517205.md?page=3)