# Hypothetical: What if Hussein had WMDs and had handed them over? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 28, 2005, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetical-what-if-hussein-had-wmds-and-had-handed-them-over/296679 "2005-03-28T22:22:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2005, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetical-what-if-hussein-had-wmds-and-had-handed-them-over/296679/41 "2005-04-01T13:45:53Z")
> [@](#): > > If his argument requires minimizing the atrocities of Saddam’s regime than his argument is bogus because what Saddam did was by most people’s count a lot worse ( **in terms of bodies** ) than **what Bush has done**. You don’t even know as much for a fact. See, quite conveniently, the US “doesn’t do body counts.” Not when it’s them doing the killing anyway… I’ll also remind you that torture and wholesale incarcerations are going on as we speak. [US Soldiers Told to ‘Beat the F\*\*k Out of’ Detainees](http://www.antiwar.com/ips/fisher.php?articleid=5415) So this whole “Bush, slightly better than Saddam” is just more apologist BS. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2005, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetical-what-if-hussein-had-wmds-and-had-handed-them-over/296679/42 "2005-04-01T15:38:26Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > So this whole “Bush, slightly better than Saddam” is just more apologist BS. You (and Princhester) might have a point if I had actually said ‘Bush, slightly better than Saddam’ or anything like that in this thread. I think you’ll find that I didn’t, and that I wasn’t actually talking about any of this to start off with anyway…it was rjung as usual twisting what I was saying to start a fight with me (and also hijack this thread IMO). Princhester…well, its obvious he’s not going to find his ass with both hands. 🙂 > [@Princhester](#): > > You see, rjung stated Saddam that was an asshole. You then strawmanned him by suggesting that rjung was “excusing” Saddam, or suggesting he was a “boy scout” You are getting tiresome. A clear reading of what rjung said in this thread, coupled with what I’ve seen in the past show me exactly what his intent was…which was to minimize Saddams atrocities while maxamizing those of the US. You can dance and spin all you like, make up stupid little insults to me that you think get past the mods (in my experience you are probably safe, but you never know) when they should be in the pit, etc etc, but it doesn’t change the facts. Again, do you have any actual debate points ABOUT THE FUCKING OP? If not its time to, as Redfury told me in another thread, to spin the mouse wheel whenever your name pops up. -XT ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2005, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetical-what-if-hussein-had-wmds-and-had-handed-them-over/296679/43 "2005-04-01T17:59:02Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > You (and Princhester) might have a point if I had actually said ‘Bush, slightly better than Saddam’ or anything like that in this thread. I think you’ll find that I didn’t, and that I wasn’t actually talking about any of this to start off with anyway…it was rjung as usual twisting what I was saying to start a fight with me (and also hijack this thread IMO). Princhester…well, its obvious he’s not going to find his ass with both hands. 🙂 And you might have a point if my post was directed at anything YOU wrote and not a direct reply to the person I quoted. \ You’re so vain You probably think this song is about you You’re so vain I’ll bet you think this song is about you Don’t you? Don’t you? \ ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2005, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetical-what-if-hussein-had-wmds-and-had-handed-them-over/296679/44 "2005-04-01T18:00:16Z")
Oh. Ok then. I thought it was. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Rashak\_Mani](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ea666f/32.png) [@Rashak\_Mani](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rashak_Mani)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2005, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetical-what-if-hussein-had-wmds-and-had-handed-them-over/296679/45 "2005-04-01T19:03:09Z")
Ok got your meaning Xtisme… the gun analogy is quite appropiate. I too wondered why Saddam didn’t go into a well off exile with his sons. I do wonder though if Saddam really got a chance to quit and go exile ? Things went quite fast… or the US didn’t really want to see him get away ? Maybe he tried to haggle a bit more… and ran out of time… who knows… But in the end I think Saddam thought the US was bluffing or something. Dictators (and others) have this nasty tendecy to have a lot of yes sayers around and lose contact with reality. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2005, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetical-what-if-hussein-had-wmds-and-had-handed-them-over/296679/46 "2005-04-01T20:21:12Z")
> [@Rashak Mani](#): > > I do wonder though if Saddam really got a chance to quit and go exile ? Things went quite fast… or the US didn’t really want to see him get away ? Maybe he tried to haggle a bit more… and ran out of time… who knows… I don’t know. We probably will never know all that went on behind the scenes. However, we do know that Saddam hadn’t come out publically and even hinted that he may be ready for a deal that he would leave Iraq with his family and toadies in return for whatever. I’m fairly confident that if he had made such a back room offer the US would have jumped at it…even if it entailed ponying up a few millions of our own to sweeten the pot. Or, maybe in those back rooms we let Saddam know that he had no options but to fight, that only his death would suffice, etc. If so, the Bush adminstration is even stupider than I think it is…and thats saying quite a lot. As this was a speculation thread, I tossed it out because to me it was a more plausable result than SH suddenly handing over WMD to the UN and admitting he had the things. For one, because I don’t believe he did, so its moot. For another, because if he DID have them and if he HAD turned them over I doubt it would have saved him anything…if anything it would have made the invasion more inevitable IMO. > [@Rashak Mani](#): > > But in the end I think Saddam thought the US was bluffing or something. Dictators (and others) have this nasty tendecy to have a lot of yes sayers around and lose contact with reality. Agreed, though I’d say it wasn’t so much he lost contact with reality as that events moved too fast and to radically for him to keep up. Its difficult for people who don’t live in America to sometimes predict what American might or might not do. After all, for a decade before the invasion we’d pretty much been over the same ground with Saddam…nothing really had changed in that situation. What had changed and what I think Saddam failed to see was that the Bush administration was radically different than the Clinton administration at a fundamental level. In addition, he failed to see how the events of 9/11 had changed the perceptions and attitudes on the average American, and opened a window of opportunity that Bush et al used to get their war. Saddam tried to play it like it was the status quo, but the game had changed and he didn’t realize it early on at least. Of course, there is no excuse for him after we started building up troops and logistics in Saudi…by that point I think everyone knew the game was up and the final outcome would be Saddam and his gang gone…one way or the other. Faced with that choice and nothing you could do about it, I would I’d be on a beach somewhere earning 15% (or 20% :)) percent with some nice native girls to get me drinks… -XT ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2005, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetical-what-if-hussein-had-wmds-and-had-handed-them-over/296679/47 "2005-04-01T23:41:32Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > You are getting tiresome. A clear reading of what rjung said in this thread, coupled with what I’ve seen in the past show me exactly what his intent was…which was to minimize Saddams atrocities while maxamizing those of the US. Right. So your actual cites and quotes to this effect are coming right up, then I guess? I mean, after all, a “clear reading” of rjung’s comments supports your point, right? So presumably you’re saying that he’s made comments as you allege, in black and white, explicitly. Those quotes are on the way, right? Any second now… Or is it a case of you being called on a complete strawman, and being unable to find any actual posts or comments by rjung that would allow you to deny the charge, so now you’re down to making vague unfalsifiable allegations about what has allegedly been said in the past? > [@](#): > > Again, do you have any actual debate points ABOUT THE FUCKING OP? If not its time to, as Redfury told me in another thread, to spin the mouse wheel whenever your name pops up. I understand that being confronted with your inappropriate posting behaviour is not comfortable for you, but that’s not my problem. And when you satisfactorily explain how it advances the debate to create strawmen (which is, to be blunt, basically lying about what other posters have said), then I’ll feel obliged to justify my own posts in response. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2005, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetical-what-if-hussein-had-wmds-and-had-handed-them-over/296679/48 "2005-04-02T00:17:48Z")
Give it a rest guys. ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2005, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetical-what-if-hussein-had-wmds-and-had-handed-them-over/296679/49 "2005-04-02T00:28:51Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > I don’t know. We probably will never know all that went on behind the scenes. … I’m fairly confident that if he had made such a back room offer the US would have jumped at it…even if it entailed ponying up a few millions of our own to sweeten the pot. > -XT It is reasonably well documented that Saddam Hussein had began back room offers to allow Iraq a managed transition to democracy over a 2 year period, culminating in free elections. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2005, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetical-what-if-hussein-had-wmds-and-had-handed-them-over/296679/50 "2005-04-02T01:48:10Z")
> [@Sevastopol](#): > > It is reasonably well documented that Saddam Hussein had began back room offers to allow Iraq a managed transition to democracy over a 2 year period, culminating in free elections. I’ve never heard of free elections in Iraq, nor have I heard of documentation that Saddam was engaged in back room dealings to try and avoid what happened…and more specifically offering to leave Iraq. I’m not saying I necessarily doubt you here, I’ve just never seen them. If you have cites, I’d be interested in seeing them. > [@PatriotX](#): > > Give it a rest guys. If this was directed at me (it seems to be, but sometimes I’m wrong about these things) I have no idea what you figure I’ve done that needs to give a rest too…certainly not in this thread. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2005, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetical-what-if-hussein-had-wmds-and-had-handed-them-over/296679/51 "2005-04-02T01:53:06Z")
> [@PatriotX](#): > > Give it a rest guys. No, frankly I won’t. As is perhaps apparent from my first post in this thread I have had it up to_here_ with the whole “if you argue you must think Saddam an innocent babe, a boy scout etc” bit. I fully intend to pursue anyone I see doing it till I’ve ground them into pieces. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2005, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetical-what-if-hussein-had-wmds-and-had-handed-them-over/296679/52 "2005-04-02T02:22:49Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > I’ve never heard of free elections in Iraq, nor have I heard of documentation that Saddam was engaged in back room dealings to try and avoid what happened…and more specifically offering to leave Iraq. I’m not saying I necessarily doubt you here, I’ve just never seen them. If you have cites, I’d be interested in seeing them. [Saddam Tried Last Minute Deal to Avoid War](http://talkleft.com/new_archives/004269.html) > [@](#): > > As American soldiers massed on the Iraqi border in March and diplomats argued about war, an influential adviser to the Pentagon received a secret message from a Lebanese-American businessman: Saddam Hussein wanted to make a deal. > > Iraqi officials, including the chief of the Iraqi Intelligence Service, had told the businessman that they wanted Washington to know that Iraq no longer had weapons of mass destruction, and they offered to allow American troops and experts to conduct an independent search. The businessman said in an interview that the Iraqis also offered to hand over a man accused of being involved in the World Trade Center bombing in 1993 who was being held in Baghdad. **At one point, he said, the Iraqis pledged to hold elections.** ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2005, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetical-what-if-hussein-had-wmds-and-had-handed-them-over/296679/53 "2005-04-02T02:23:15Z")
It just seems that there’s an inordinate amount of nitpicking the nitpicks. Sorry I interfered. Carry on. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2005, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetical-what-if-hussein-had-wmds-and-had-handed-them-over/296679/54 "2005-04-02T02:29:41Z")
> [@PatriotX](#): > > It just seems that there’s an inordinate amount of nitpicking the nitpicks. I happen to agree with you, which is why I’m ignoring Princhester. Feel free to interfer all you like…myself I was curious what you thought I specificially had done since you said ‘guys’. Redfury, thanks for the link. Businessmen? This seemed to say that they weren’t engaged directly with the US, but through some third party. Was this the case? (I admit I have only skimmed your link…I’m actually working tonight). -XT ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2005, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetical-what-if-hussein-had-wmds-and-had-handed-them-over/296679/55 "2005-04-02T02:35:28Z")
Some of you may have also forgotten just how Bush framed his ultimatum: [Will the War Begin With a Big Lie?](http://www.fair.org/press-releases/ultimatum.html) **Iraq will be invaded or occupied regardless of “ultimatum,” report says** > [@](#): > > March 19, 2003 > > George W. Bush’s March 17 speech has been boiled down to one blunt statement: “Saddam Hussein and his sons must leave Iraq within 48 hours. Their refusal to do so will result in military conflict, commenced at a time of our choosing.” > > Headlines the next morning focused on this message: “President Tells Hussein to Leave Iraq Within 48 Hours or Face Invasion” (Washington Post); “Bush Gives Ultimatum to Hussein: Leave in 48 Hours or Face War” (Ft. Lauderdale Sun-Sentinel); “President Gives the Iraqi Dictator One Last Deadline” (San Antonio Express-News). > > One story, however, at the bottom of an inside page in the New York Times, had a different message: **“Allies Will Move In, Even if Saddam Hussein Moves Out”** was the headline over a page A16 story by Times military correspondent Michael Gordon. “Even if Saddam Hussein leaves Iraq within 48 hours, as President Bush demanded, allied forces plan to move north into Iraqi territory, American officials said today,” the article began. > > Gordon pointed to a little-noted line in Bush’s speech: “It is not too late for the Iraqi military to act with honor and protect your country by permitting the peaceful entry of coalition forces to eliminate weapons of mass destruction.” While in the context of the speech, this seemed to refer to what Bush hoped Iraqi commanders would do in the event that his ultimatum was rejected, Gordon reported that this was actually a signal that regardless of what Hussein chooses, the U.S. would still, in Gordon’s words, “enter Iraq to search for hidden weapons of mass destruction and help stabilize the nation so that a new and more democratic regime could take over.” > > Even if the Iraqi military were to overthrow Hussein, Gordon wrote, “a military intervention seems very likely.” He quoted Colin Powell’s statement on March 17 to the effect that “the only way for Iraq to avoid an attack is for Mr. Hussein to leave the country and ‘allow this matter to be resolved through the peaceful entry of force.’” > > \*\*In other words, there is nothing that Iraq can do to avoid invasion and occupation; its only choice is whether or not to surrender. \*\* That should put the OP’s query to rest. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2005, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetical-what-if-hussein-had-wmds-and-had-handed-them-over/296679/56 "2005-04-02T02:41:41Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > Redfury, thanks for the link. Businessmen? This seemed to say that they weren’t engaged directly with the US, but through some third party. Was this the case? Backdoor facilitators carrying a feeler, yes. Nothing unusual in this type of situations if memory serves. See Cuban Missile Crisis. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2005, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetical-what-if-hussein-had-wmds-and-had-handed-them-over/296679/57 "2005-04-02T03:08:39Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > I happen to agree with you, which is why I’m ignoring Princhester. Not much more for you to say, I expect. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2005, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetical-what-if-hussein-had-wmds-and-had-handed-them-over/296679/58 "2005-04-02T03:13:15Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > Some of you may have also forgotten just how Bush framed his ultimatum: > > [Will the War Begin With a Big Lie?](http://www.fair.org/press-releases/ultimatum.html) > > **Iraq will be invaded or occupied regardless of “ultimatum,” report says** > > That should put the OP’s query to rest. While I agree, I’m not sure that the piece quoted is actually all that strong. It’s mostly Gordon’s interpretation of an ambiguous comment. The Powell comment is fairly strong though, I suppose. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2005, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetical-what-if-hussein-had-wmds-and-had-handed-them-over/296679/59 "2005-04-02T03:44:58Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > While I agree, I’m not sure that the piece quoted is actually all that strong. It’s mostly Gordon’s interpretation of an ambiguous comment. The Powell comment is fairly strong though, I suppose. Princhester, try parsing Bush’s own pre-invasion speech: [President Says Saddam Hussein Must Leave Iraq Within 48 Hours](http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2003/03/20030317-7.html) The following two paragraphs in particular makes it quite clear that the Americans were going in regardless of Saddam’s actions. > [@](#): > > It is too late for Saddam Hussein to remain in power. **It is not too late for the Iraqi military to act with honor and protect your country by permitting the peaceful entry of coalition forces to eliminate weapons of mass destruction**. Our forces will give Iraqi military units clear instructions on actions they can take to avoid being attacked and destroyed. I urge every member of the Iraqi military and intelligence services, if war comes, do not fight for a dying regime that is not worth your own life. > > And all Iraqi military and civilian personnel should listen carefully to this warning. In any conflict, your fate will depend on your action. Do not destroy oil wells, a source of wealth that belongs to the Iraqi people. Do not obey any command to use weapons of mass destruction against anyone, including the Iraqi people. War crimes will be prosecuted. War criminals will be punished. And it will be no defense to say, “I was just following orders.” IOW, we’re going in, give up and don’t fuck with “our” oil. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2005, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetical-what-if-hussein-had-wmds-and-had-handed-them-over/296679/60 "2005-04-02T03:46:31Z")
“ **make** it quite clear” even. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetical-what-if-hussein-had-wmds-and-had-handed-them-over/296679.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetical-what-if-hussein-had-wmds-and-had-handed-them-over/296679.md?page=4)