# Hypothetically, what if an ex-President loses it and starts spilling state secrets? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 19, 2019, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetically-what-if-an-ex-president-loses-it-and-starts-spilling-state-secrets/841989 "2019-10-19T05:11:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2019, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetically-what-if-an-ex-president-loses-it-and-starts-spilling-state-secrets/841989/21 "2019-10-21T15:26:53Z")
I wasn’t able to find much on statutes that ex-presidents are bound to with respect to classified information they may have been given during their term. I did find some stuff on continual briefs given to former presidents, and some of that is almost certainly at least sensitive information, though most likely not close to the highest levels of classified data. So…I’m actually not sure. It won’t be cloak and dagger CT type stuff as many have mentioned. But I don’t know what statutes that would be in play if, say, a former president decided to spill the beans on some bit of highly classified data or other that they knew or knew of during their term. My WAG is it would be similar to any government employee who did the same thing…which is to say, that it depends on their level. If you are a low level snuffy and you disclose highly sensitive data or don’t follow proper security, you are going to jail. If you are a high level US official, then it probably gets whisked away. Same would almost certainly be for an ex-president…on paper they would be all sorts of dire stuff (for the snuffy for sure), that almost certainly wouldn’t apply in the same way for the former CiC. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2019, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetically-what-if-an-ex-president-loses-it-and-starts-spilling-state-secrets/841989/22 "2019-10-21T15:34:33Z")
> [@XT](#): > > I wasn’t able to find much on statutes that ex-presidents are bound to with respect to classified information they may have been given during their term. Because there are no real statutes on the process-related side of security clearances. It’s governed by executive orders. Anyone with access to classified information who makes an unauthorized disclosure is subject to punishments. This, by definition, doesn’t apply to a sitting President, because he alone determines whether a leak is authorized or not. That does not apply to a former President, of course, so it’s perfectly clear that the various provisions of law relating to the Espionage Act would apply to an ex-president. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2019, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetically-what-if-an-ex-president-loses-it-and-starts-spilling-state-secrets/841989/23 "2019-10-21T15:37:26Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > Are you willing to assume for the hypothetical that the ex-President _is_ afflicted with dementia and frequently misinterprets his surroundings as a top-secret briefing with intelligence officers? Let’s say his personal physician has a strong diagnosis and recommends a full-time caregiver, regular mental exercises, etc. > > I was thinking this caregiver, which could be his wife, should be at his side to remind him that he’s not talking with intelligence officers but with the local girl scout troop. And then she, he (when lucid), and the security detail would work it out to minimize public exposure and visitors. > > ~Max Ok. I was responding to an entirely different suggestion. Nowhere in your situation have you suggested “back-channel” (extra-judicial) operations run by the White House. Your situation explicitly places the caregiver in control, with the security detail assisting him/her in carrying out his/her wishes. **Flyer’s** situation seems like the plot of a 90’s political thriller or a Peter Sellers comedy. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2019, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetically-what-if-an-ex-president-loses-it-and-starts-spilling-state-secrets/841989/24 "2019-10-21T15:40:23Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Brutal infringement of anti-state speech. Such is the treatment of actual whistleblowers under the current regime. See Manning, Snowden, Binney, etc. This is a warning for failure to follow moderator instructions. [See here.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=21736908&postcount=21) [/moderating] ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2019, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetically-what-if-an-ex-president-loses-it-and-starts-spilling-state-secrets/841989/25 "2019-10-21T15:44:53Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > This is a warning for failure to follow moderator instructions. [See here.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=21736908&postcount=21) > > [/moderating] _The Pet Strikes Back_ ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2019, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetically-what-if-an-ex-president-loses-it-and-starts-spilling-state-secrets/841989/26 "2019-10-21T15:46:38Z")
> [@SuntanLotion](#): > > I would pay to see that(the flying cats that is) You can’t, they’re invisible. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2019, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetically-what-if-an-ex-president-loses-it-and-starts-spilling-state-secrets/841989/27 "2019-10-21T15:57:33Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > _The Pet Strikes Back_ You’re not real clear on what’s happening here I take it. And with that, I’m suspending you pending mod loop discussion. [/moderating] ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2019, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetically-what-if-an-ex-president-loses-it-and-starts-spilling-state-secrets/841989/28 "2019-10-21T16:16:50Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Because there are no real statutes on the process-related side of security clearances. It’s governed by executive orders. > > Anyone with access to classified information who makes an unauthorized disclosure is subject to punishments. This, by definition, doesn’t apply to a sitting President, because he alone determines whether a leak is authorized or not. That does not apply to a former President, of course, so it’s perfectly clear that the various provisions of law relating to the Espionage Act would apply to an ex-president. My concern with prosecution of an ex-President is 1) that it makes the U.S. look weak, and 2) as **eschrodinger** mentioned the president has an insanity defense, which 2a) also makes the U.S. look bad, essentially we would be prosecuting a former leader because of something that is not his fault and can’t be helped. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2019, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetically-what-if-an-ex-president-loses-it-and-starts-spilling-state-secrets/841989/29 "2019-10-21T16:49:23Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > My concern with prosecution of an ex-President is 1) that it makes the U.S. look weak, and 2) as **eschrodinger** mentioned the president has an insanity defense, which 2a) also makes the U.S. look bad, essentially we would be prosecuting a former leader because of something that is not his fault and can’t be helped. I suppose one could say that not having a President-for-life makes the US look weak, but then in either scenario, I’m not sure who we are supposed to be appealing to in this context… > [@](#): > > Putin: You say in America, laws apply to both the weak and the powerful? What a country! > > Xi: Yes, and Colin Kaepernick’s stay in re-education camp was far too short! > > Kim: I heard they let ANYONE have an email address! ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2019, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetically-what-if-an-ex-president-loses-it-and-starts-spilling-state-secrets/841989/30 "2019-10-21T16:55:26Z")
My concern with _not_ prosecuting an ex-President is that makes us look corrupt. ---
**Author:** ![Sunny\_Daze](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunny_daze/32/438_2.png) [@Sunny\_Daze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunny_Daze)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2019, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetically-what-if-an-ex-president-loses-it-and-starts-spilling-state-secrets/841989/31 "2019-10-21T17:52:35Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > My concern with _not_ prosecuting an ex-President is that makes us look corrupt. Exactly. I don’t follow how holding everyone to account under the law makes us look weak. ---
**Author:** ![Cicero](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cicero/32/3594_2.png) [@Cicero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cicero)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2019, 10:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetically-what-if-an-ex-president-loses-it-and-starts-spilling-state-secrets/841989/32 "2019-10-24T10:48:25Z")
Interesting, in what if the former President doesn’t reveal details but suggests something such as Venona exists. (or did exist). ---
**Author:** ![Boycott](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boycott/32/6741_2.png) [@Boycott](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boycott)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2019, 12:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetically-what-if-an-ex-president-loses-it-and-starts-spilling-state-secrets/841989/33 "2019-10-24T12:09:09Z")
Scenes when Jimmy Carter tells his Sunday School audience that Area 51 really does contain aliens! ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2019, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetically-what-if-an-ex-president-loses-it-and-starts-spilling-state-secrets/841989/34 "2019-10-24T14:21:34Z")
The closest real-world analogy that comes to mind is the practice of the Secret Service of deliberately putting leaves in Ronald Reagan’s swimming pool (Reagan by then was deeply afflicted by Alzheimer’s) so he could keep busy raking them up and then forgetting that he did so. A former president who needed to be contained for mental health reasons would be similarly kept busy by a convenient fiction, like agents dressing up as reporters and pretending to be attending the president’s press conferences, or a simulated Twitter app that accepts posts but doesn’t actually send them anywhere. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2019, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetically-what-if-an-ex-president-loses-it-and-starts-spilling-state-secrets/841989/35 "2019-10-24T15:01:18Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > The closest real-world analogy that comes to mind is the practice of the Secret Service of deliberately putting leaves in Ronald Reagan’s swimming pool (Reagan by then was deeply afflicted by Alzheimer’s) so he could keep busy raking them up and then forgetting that he did so. I thought there might be precedent with Mr. Reagan. Do you know if Nancy was in on it? ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2019, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetically-what-if-an-ex-president-loses-it-and-starts-spilling-state-secrets/841989/36 "2019-10-24T15:13:00Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > I thought there might be precedent with Mr. Reagan. Do you know if Nancy was in on it? > > ~Max I’m sure she was well-aware. From [here:](http://news.minnesota.publicradio.org/features/2004/06/10_ap_reaganyears/) > [@](#): > > One of the last photos the family released of Reagan was taken on Feb. 6, 2000, his 89th birthday. It shows him and his wife at home, in matching red sweaters, sharing a kiss and cake, the former president still looking trim. > > As late as the year before, his biographer Edmund Morris reported, Reagan was still strong enough to rake leaves from the family pool, but even that basic household chore had become tinged with sadness. > > “He will rake leaves for hours, not realizing that they are being surreptitiously replenished by his Secret Service men,” Morris wrote. > > In a March 2001 interview with CNN’s Larry King, Nancy Reagan said she no longer allowed visitors to see her husband - and even she could no longer reach him. It kept him busy and distracted. I don’t see a problem treating future former-presidents the same way. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2019, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetically-what-if-an-ex-president-loses-it-and-starts-spilling-state-secrets/841989/37 "2019-10-24T15:22:12Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > It kept him busy and distracted. I don’t see a problem treating future former-presidents the same way. Neither do I. Do the proponents of prosecuting the ex-president have any objection to essentially spouse-approved and secret-service implemented exile and seclusion as preferable to criminal or other public trial and involuntary commitment? Assuming they have a doctor’s blessing. ( **ASL v2.0** , **Ravenman** , **Czarcasm** , **Sunny Daze** ) ~Max ---
**Author:** ![bizerta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3be4f8/32.png) [@bizerta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bizerta)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2019, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetically-what-if-an-ex-president-loses-it-and-starts-spilling-state-secrets/841989/38 "2019-10-24T16:25:32Z")
One of my concerns is a lame-duck, vindictive President pardoning all the felons in a state that voted to impeach (or voted him out of office). Perhaps there are other ways of payback, like cancelling funding for a highway, or dissolving a military base out of spite. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2019, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetically-what-if-an-ex-president-loses-it-and-starts-spilling-state-secrets/841989/39 "2019-10-24T16:31:36Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > Neither do I. Do the proponents of prosecuting the ex-president have any objection to essentially spouse-approved and secret-service implemented exile and seclusion as preferable to criminal or other public trial and involuntary commitment? Assuming they have a doctor’s blessing. > > ( **ASL v2.0** , **Ravenman** , **Czarcasm** , **Sunny Daze** ) > > ~Max Would it be because he deserves special treatment, or because you don’t want to offend his fans? ---
**Author:** ![Regallag\_The\_Axe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/regallag_the_axe/32/445_2.png) [@Regallag\_The\_Axe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Regallag_The_Axe)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2019, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetically-what-if-an-ex-president-loses-it-and-starts-spilling-state-secrets/841989/40 "2019-10-24T16:48:19Z")
> [@bizerta](#): > > One of my concerns is a lame-duck, vindictive President pardoning all the felons in a state that voted to impeach (or voted him out of office). Perhaps there are other ways of payback, like cancelling funding for a highway, or dissolving a military base out of spite. IIRC, the president can only pardon federal criminals and I’d imagine that a vast majority of felons would be violators of state laws. I think presidents can only \*withhold \*funding, in which case the incoming president could release it. I don’t know for sure, but it seems unlikely that a president can unilaterally decide to shut down a military base. > [@Czarcasm](#): > > Would it be because he deserves special treatment, or because you don’t want to offend his fans? If it solves the problem of unauthorized jaw-flapping who cares? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetically-what-if-an-ex-president-loses-it-and-starts-spilling-state-secrets/841989.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hypothetically-what-if-an-ex-president-loses-it-and-starts-spilling-state-secrets/841989.md?page=3)