# I Accuse What Exit of Being a Liar **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 22, 2008, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-accuse-what-exit-of-being-a-liar/478352 "2008-12-22T19:33:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2008, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-accuse-what-exit-of-being-a-liar/478352/181 "2008-12-24T21:04:14Z")
> [@Brazil84](#): > > Rule 3 Coherency. While debating, I must be able to understand your points if I am to consider them and respond to them…if your posts are consistently incoherent, I will ban you. > Rule 6 Spelling flames. If you start flaming my spelling, grammar, or the like, I will probably conclude that you are conceding. What happens if your spelling, grammar or the like are so bad that _you_ are incoherent? Will you ban yourself? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![pkd88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/2bfe46/32.png) [@pkd88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkd88)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2008, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-accuse-what-exit-of-being-a-liar/478352/182 "2008-12-24T21:14:36Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > Probably, although it’s somewhat unusual for anyone to argue for Position X in a thread and later openly admit that they have been convinced to abandon Position X. > > However, for example, reading through [this thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=449663), I would say it’s likely that I changed **ascenray** ’s mind about Guns, Germs & Steel. I would say it’s also likely that **Shalmanese** will – at a minimum – modify his argument about Guns Germs & Steel representing a scientific consensus. I am not sure you changed any opinions at all. Ascenray doesn’t seem to be very impressed with your position > [@why couldn't humans tame zebras ??](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-couldnt-humans-tame-zebras/431799/107): > > This statement is so far from being true that it must be one of the following: > > (1) a flat lie > > (2) a complete misunderstanding of that portion of the book > > Which is it? Shalmanese apologized for an error he made but then asked you to back up what you have claimed. > [@why couldn't humans tame zebras ??](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-couldnt-humans-tame-zebras/431799/104): > > Apologies, that was someone else. > > Where are **your** cites? The extent of your argument seems to be that zebra aggression doesn’t make sense to you, ergo, it’s up to us to prove that zebras are more aggressive than wolves. But just because it doesn’t make sense to you doesn’t mean it’s prima facie absurd. Maybe the species of wolf that lead to the dog is far more docile than north american wolves. Maybe Zebras are ornier than you imagine. > > It _does_ matter who the author is because as far as I’m aware, he represents the scientific consensus. You’re not in possession of all the facts and neither am I but uhm… domesticologists who _are_ in possession of all the facts don’t seem to be at all troubled by his statements so why would you have any reason to be? > > Whether you have “respect” for him or not doesn’t matter. Unless you can produce cites which provide evidence that Diamond is wrong, then the default assumption should be that he’s done a fair and intellectually honest job of reviewing the existing literature. Are you seeing posts that I am not? ---
**Author:** ![Count\_Blucher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Count\_Blucher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Count_Blucher)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2008, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-accuse-what-exit-of-being-a-liar/478352/183 "2008-12-24T21:21:34Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > Most things I write are reasonable. I dispute this. Cite 15 different examples from 15 completely different threads spread across more than 3 main catagories of the SDMB (no you can’t just quote GD and Pit threads). Come back when you are done and I’ll consider changing my opinion. “Computer, calculate to the last digit the value of pie…” **…I knew those damn channel 29 Star Trek reruns would come in handy one day…!** ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2008, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-accuse-what-exit-of-being-a-liar/478352/184 "2008-12-24T22:28:27Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > What happens if your spelling, grammar or the like are so bad that _you_ are incoherent? That issue is actually covered in Rule 3: > [@](#): > > If you feel that my posts are consistently incoherent, you are free to stop reading them. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2008, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-accuse-what-exit-of-being-a-liar/478352/185 "2008-12-24T22:40:49Z")
> [@pkd88](#): > > I am not sure you changed any opinions at all. > > Ascenray doesn’t seem to be very impressed with your position > > > [@ascenray](#): > > > > This statement is so far from being true that it must be one of the following: > > > > (1) a flat lie > > > > (2) a complete misunderstanding of that portion of the book > > > > Which is it? Lol. Read a few posts down where I quote from the actual book and show that **ascenray** was dead wrong. > [@](#): > > Shalmanese apologized for an error he made but then asked you to back up what you have claimed. **Shalmanese** claimed that Guns, Germs & Steel represents some kind of scientific consensus. I asked whether, in his view, Diamond’s claim that New Guineans are probably genetically innately superior to Westerners in mental ability was the scientific consensus. **Shalmanese** never answered the question and instead disappeared. It’s just an educated guess, but I doubt that in the future, **Shalmanese** will claim that Guns, Germs & Steel represents a scientific consensus. Now that he or she knows what the book says about the innate mental abilities of New Guineans. As I said above, it’s unusual for a poster to argue for Position X in a thread and later openly admit that they have been convinced to abandon Position X. However, if one presents compelling evidence that Position X is wrong, and the poster immediately disappears, there’s a pretty good chance they’ve realized their position is untenable. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2008, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-accuse-what-exit-of-being-a-liar/478352/186 "2008-12-25T02:20:32Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > It’s just an educated guess, but I doubt that in the future, **Shalmanese** will claim that Guns, Germs & Steel represents a scientific consensus. That’s not an educated guess, that’s a wild-ass guess. If **Shalmanese** comes here and claims that GG&S represents a scientific consensus to approximately the degree that he believed it did before reading your devastating argument, will you admit that your guesswork needs work? Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Q.E.D](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/51bf81/32.png) [@Q.E.D](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.E.D)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2008, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-accuse-what-exit-of-being-a-liar/478352/187 "2008-12-25T02:31:08Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > Lol. Read a few posts down where I quote from the actual book and show that **ascenray** was dead wrong. I did so, but I fail to see where **acsenray** conceded your point. Unless you can point that out for me, your claim that “it’s likely that [you] changed ascenray’s mind about Guns, Germs & Steel” is pure, Grade-A bullshit. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2008, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-accuse-what-exit-of-being-a-liar/478352/188 "2008-12-25T02:33:48Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > That’s not an educated guess, that’s a wild-ass guess. If **Shalmanese** comes here and claims that GG&S represents a scientific consensus to approximately the degree that he believed it did before reading your devastating argument, will you admit that your guesswork needs work? The word “approximately” gives him a little too much wiggle room for my comfort, so no. But if he comes in and indicates that he still believes that GG&S represents the scientific consensus as far as he now knows, then yes, I will agree that my guess was wrong. And of course I would be interested in his answer to my question as to whether the scientific consensus is that New Guineans are probably innately superior to westerners in mental ability. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2008, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-accuse-what-exit-of-being-a-liar/478352/189 "2008-12-25T02:39:12Z")
> [@Q.E.D](#): > > I did so, but I fail to see where **acsenray** conceded your point. As I said a couple times, it’s unusual for someone to concede in that way. Which is why I qualified my statements. The question I was asked was (basically) if I had convinced anyone to change their mind. From circumstantial evidence, I think the answer is probably “yes,” but one can never be sure. **Ascenray** was presented with compelling evidence that he was wrong and did not respond. The most obvious explanation is that he realized his position had become untenable. Granted, there are other possible explanations. ---
**Author:** ![Q.E.D](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/51bf81/32.png) [@Q.E.D](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.E.D)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2008, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-accuse-what-exit-of-being-a-liar/478352/190 "2008-12-25T02:42:33Z")
Then, “I don’t know” would have been a far more honest answer. I believe, therefore, that this thread now qualifies as a cite for **What Exit?**'s claim that you post misinformation. Happy holidays. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2008, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-accuse-what-exit-of-being-a-liar/478352/191 "2008-12-25T02:52:19Z")
> [@Q.E.D](#): > > Then, “I don’t know” would have been a far more honest answer. :shrug: I clearly qualified my response: > [@](#): > > I would say **it’s likely** that I changed ascenray’s mind about Guns, Germs & Steel (my bold) > [@](#): > > I believe, therefore, that this thread now qualifies as a cite for **What Exit?**'s claim that you post misinformation. And I believe that you need to read more carefully before you hit the “submit reply” button. Please respond to what I actually post, and not what you (apparently) wish I had posted. ETA: By the way, feel free to respond to my earlier challenge. Please QUOTE the actual misinformation which I supposedly posted/promoted in the Al Gore thread. ---
**Author:** ![Q.E.D](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/51bf81/32.png) [@Q.E.D](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.E.D)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2008, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-accuse-what-exit-of-being-a-liar/478352/192 "2008-12-25T02:57:10Z")
Saying something is merely “likely” doesn’t absolve you of the requirement to support your assertion; nothing in the linked thread does so, nor has anything you’ve posted here. Until **acsenray** , in some manner or other, posts to concede your point(s), your statement is disingenuous and entirely without meaning. ---
**Author:** ![pkd88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/2bfe46/32.png) [@pkd88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkd88)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2008, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-accuse-what-exit-of-being-a-liar/478352/193 "2008-12-25T03:04:24Z")
Brazil84, I don’t see any evidence in that thread that anyone changed their mind on the issues. Really, I think they lost respect for you and just gave up Maybe they will show up and say I misunderstood. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2008, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-accuse-what-exit-of-being-a-liar/478352/194 "2008-12-25T03:07:26Z")
> [@Q.E.D](#): > > Saying something is merely “likely” doesn’t absolve you of the requirement to support your assertion; Sure, but it does absolve me of the requirement to supply the degree of proof you are demanding. Let me ask you this: Do you agree that **ascenray** was presented with very strong evidence that his claim was incorrect? ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2008, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-accuse-what-exit-of-being-a-liar/478352/195 "2008-12-25T03:08:52Z")
> [@pkd88](#): > > Brazil84, I don’t see any evidence in that thread that anyone changed their mind on the issues. Same question to you: Do you agree that **ascenray** was presented with very strong evidence that his claim was incorrect? ---
**Author:** ![Q.E.D](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/51bf81/32.png) [@Q.E.D](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.E.D)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2008, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-accuse-what-exit-of-being-a-liar/478352/196 "2008-12-25T03:11:00Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > Sure, but it does absolve me of the requirement to supply the degree of proof you are demanding. I’m not asking you to supply anything. Either **acsenray** conceded your argument, or he didn’t. > [@brazil84](#): > > Let me ask you this: Do you agree that **ascenray** was presented with very strong evidence that his claim was incorrect? Entirely irrelevant. It only matters if _he_ agrees that was the case. Did he, or did he not, do that? A simple yes or no will suffice. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2008, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-accuse-what-exit-of-being-a-liar/478352/197 "2008-12-25T03:22:52Z")
> [@Q.E.D](#): > > I’m not asking you to supply anything. Sure you are, as far as I can tell. Basically, you are saying (as far as I can tell) that unless **ascenray** explicitly concedes, then there is no evidence that I changed his mind about anything. > [@](#): > > Entirely irrelevant. Lol. Of course you evaded my question. > [@](#): > > Did he, or did he not, do that? A simple yes or no will suffice. He absolutely did not. Now let me ask you this: Is it ever possible to make a decent guess, based on circumstances (and not an explicit concession), as to whether a poster’s mind has been changed about something? A simple yes or no will suffice. ---
**Author:** ![Q.E.D](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/51bf81/32.png) [@Q.E.D](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.E.D)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2008, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-accuse-what-exit-of-being-a-liar/478352/198 "2008-12-25T03:29:26Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > Sure you are, as far as I can tell. Basically, you are saying (as far as I can tell) that unless **ascenray** explicitly concedes, then there is no evidence that I changed his mind about anything. But YOU don’t have to supply that. He does. > [@brazil84](#): > > Lol. :rolleyes: > [@brazil84](#): > > Of course you evaded my question. Because, as I stated, it’s irrelevant. If you can show compelling cause why it _is_ relevant, then I’ll be happy to answer. > [@brazil84](#): > > Now let me ask you this: Is it ever possible to make a decent guess, based on circumstances (and not an explicit concession), as to whether a poster’s mind has been changed about something? > > A simple yes or no will suffice. I need to clarify something before I will give you an answer: what “circumstances,” specifically, are present which lead you to conclude that it’s likely that you changed his mind? ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2008, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-accuse-what-exit-of-being-a-liar/478352/199 "2008-12-25T03:33:57Z")
> [@What\_Exit](#): > > This might be the most reasonable thing I have ever seen you write. Are you trying to shock me? Don’t take it as being reasonable. It’s gives him an out to “ban” someone who’s kicking his ass. It’s a flight tactic. **Proudly banned by brazil84, 2008** ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2008, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-accuse-what-exit-of-being-a-liar/478352/200 "2008-12-25T03:45:05Z")
> [@Q.E.D](#): > > what “circumstances,” specifically, are present which lead you to conclude that it’s likely that you changed his mind? By “circumstances,” I am including anything which is posted or not posted to any thread on the message board. > [@](#): > > Because, as I stated, it’s irrelevant. If you can show differently, then I’ll answer. Most people change their minds when presented with strong evidence that some fact they believed is wrong. (As long as (1) they have not yet invested themselves extensively in that fact; and (2) they don’t have any other strong interest in believing that fact). Most likely, **acsenray** would never have made the claim he did if he had known (in advance) about the quote from the book. That’s just human nature. Unless they are trolling, most people just aren’t gonna claim “Book X doesn’t say Y” if they know in advance that Book X does in fact say Y. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-accuse-what-exit-of-being-a-liar/478352.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-accuse-what-exit-of-being-a-liar/478352.md?page=11)