# I admire the tenacity of republicans **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 20, 2014, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-admire-the-tenacity-of-republicans/693614 "2014-07-20T18:13:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 31
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2014, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-admire-the-tenacity-of-republicans/693614/601 "2014-07-24T16:46:29Z")
You think 2012 was big? Romney got the lead on Obama as late as October and Obama ended up winning only 51% of the vote! His margin was only slightly higher than Bush over Kerry, which you called close enough to validate liberal Dopers’ predictions! ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2014, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-admire-the-tenacity-of-republicans/693614/602 "2014-07-24T16:47:49Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Only in the minds of extreme Democratic partisans could Obama’s performance be seen as mediocre or better. Complete nonsense. Stop listening to Hannity. > [@](#): > > Is he a failed President now? It’s debateable. No it’s not. His signature achievement is meeting or exceeding most of its goals so far. He didn’t blunder into any entanglements that resulted in great loss of life, and unentangled us from some that did. He presided over the end of a recession and a long recovery, albeit a mediocre one so far. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2014, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-admire-the-tenacity-of-republicans/693614/603 "2014-07-24T16:50:37Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > You think 2012 was big? Absolutely. It was a big Obama win. Very big electoral victory, and a solid popular-vote victory. > [@](#): > > Romney got the lead on Obama as late as October No he didn’t. Despite some of the awful polling from Rasmussen and Gallup, Romney was never leading. Look at Nate Silver’s prediction history at the time. > [@](#): > > His margin was only slightly higher than Bush over Kerry, which you called close enough to validate liberal Dopers’ predictions! His popular margin was almost twice that of Bush over Kerry. His electoral margin was much, much larger. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2014, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-admire-the-tenacity-of-republicans/693614/604 "2014-07-24T16:53:42Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Complete nonsense. Stop listening to Hannity. Stop ignoring extensive poll data. Are you arguing that they are skewed? Or are you still sticking to your story that this is a temporary condition? > [@](#): > > No it’s not. His signature achievement is meeting or exceeding most of its goals so far. He didn’t blunder into any entanglements that resulted in great loss of life, and unentangled us from some that did. He presided over the end of a recession and a long recovery, albeit a mediocre one so far. Oh, I see the problem. You have a different bar than the average person. Gee, he didn’t get us into a disastrous war, and he passed a law that you liked that is “succeeding” the way most social programs do in liberal eyes: by getting people signed up and spending a lot of money. By that definition, you’ll be one of those deadenders like we saw in the last year of the Bush administration, when he was sitting at 25% but a few kept insisting he was a doing a great job. ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2014, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-admire-the-tenacity-of-republicans/693614/605 "2014-07-24T16:54:09Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > We certainly don’t want our foreign policy to fail. WOuld be nice if he’d start paying attention. Things haven’t been the same since Clinton left. Kerry’s proving how disastrous he would have been as President. Can you suggest what we should be doing with regard to foreign policy right now? Give me the issue, and what your suggestion is. For instance what do you suggest we do in the Ukraine? Send in troops? Start a war with Russia? What do you suggest we do in Iraq right now, re-invade? Bomb them? Don’t just complain about something, suggest a solution. Otherwise you aren’t to be taken seriously, you are the old man yelling at clouds. Adults try to solve problems, not just point them out and yell ‘INCOMPETENCE’. What are your actual goddamn ideas, aside from Democrats=Bad and Obama=Failure? If you have no idea what we could do that would improve things in these foreign policy situations, then what exactly is your complaint? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2014, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-admire-the-tenacity-of-republicans/693614/606 "2014-07-24T16:55:27Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I wasn’t one of them. Also, Kerry came much, much closer to victory than McCain or Romney. So the prediction wasn’t as far off. I have no idea what you were saying in 2004 – you didn’t join our fun loving community until later. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2014, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-admire-the-tenacity-of-republicans/693614/607 "2014-07-24T16:57:20Z")
Yes, we \*could \*now have President John “Bomb, bomb Iran” McCain and his insistence on military conquest of anybody who pisses him off. And Vice-President Palin to back him up. That’s what \*\*adaher \*\*wants, in his loyally **Bricker** ianly-absolutist party affiliation that defines what he allows himself to be told to think. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2014, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-admire-the-tenacity-of-republicans/693614/608 "2014-07-24T16:59:38Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Stop ignoring extensive poll data. Are you arguing that they are skewed? Not the best argument for you to make, is it? > [@](#): > > You have a different bar than the average person. Gee, he didn’t get us into a disastrous war, and he passed a law that you liked that is “succeeding” the way most social programs do in liberal eyes: by getting people signed up and spending a lot of money. Check those polls yourself about the popularity of ACA. Oh, wait, you don’t know how despite all the times you’ve been led through it. And no, Obama has not started a disastrous and immoral war, that’s a matter of fact, not opinion. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2014, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-admire-the-tenacity-of-republicans/693614/609 "2014-07-24T17:01:12Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Absolutely. It was a big Obama win. Very big electoral victory, and a solid popular-vote victory. He won 51% of the vote. Bush won 50.7%. Give me a break. He did do far better in the electoral college, but again, while I support the electoral college, it tells you nothing about popularity. Obama, like Bush, won by eking out the victories he needed in battleground states, he just eked out more of them by small margins than Bush did. Bush and Obama’s popularity and vote totals were nearly identical, as were their campaign strategies(The dude from Massachusetts is a rich flip flopper!) > [@](#): > > No he didn’t. Despite some of the awful polling from Rasmussen and Gallup, Romney was never leading. Look at Nate Silver’s prediction history at the time. We argued about it extensively. Silver did have Romney ahead in the popular vote at the time, but still rated Obama’s chances of winning as better because Obama was doing better in state polls, plus Romney’s bounce was temporary. > [@](#): > > His popular margin was almost twice that of Bush over Kerry. His electoral margin was much, much larger. Which means little when we’re talking about such tiny margins to begin with. 3.9 vs. 2.4. He won 26 states out of 50. Again, he won by eking out tiny victories exactly where he needed to. He did not crush Romney, except in the technical aspect of playing the game better than Romney did. You cannot count on every candidate being so skillful, and Hillary Clinton if anything showed that she was less than skillful in that regard. Obama beat her only technically as well. Clinton beat him in the popular vote. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2014, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-admire-the-tenacity-of-republicans/693614/610 "2014-07-24T17:03:12Z")
> [@Airbeck](#): > > Can you suggest what we should be doing with regard to foreign policy right now? Give me the issue, and what your suggestion is. For instance what do you suggest we do in the Ukraine? Send in troops? Start a war with Russia? What do you suggest we do in Iraq right now, re-invade? Bomb them? Don’t just complain about something, suggest a solution. Otherwise you aren’t to be taken seriously, you are the old man yelling at clouds. Adults try to solve problems, not just point them out and yell ‘INCOMPETENCE’. What are your actual goddamn ideas, aside from Democrats=Bad and Obama=Failure? If you have no idea what we could do that would improve things in these foreign policy situations, then what exactly is your complaint? Hmm, where were we hearing that before? Oh yeah, Bush partisans were using that argument against Democrats. Foreign policy does not lend itself to “He should do this instead of that” arguments. There’s no way to predict what an alternative would do. What we do know is that not only are the President’s ideas not working, but it’s not even clear he’s really all that engaged, which is the real problem. It’s become a running theme in his Presidency. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2014, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-admire-the-tenacity-of-republicans/693614/611 "2014-07-24T17:05:24Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Check those polls yourself about the popularity of ACA. Oh, wait, you don’t know how despite all the times you’ve been led through it. And no, Obama has not started a disastrous and immoral war, that’s a matter of fact, not opinion. Ridiculously low bar. Why is his handling of health care rated so poorly by the public in the polls I cited? And only two Presidents in recent memory started disastrous wars. Both are failed PResidents. Oh wait, some of you think LBJ is the bee’s knees because Medicare. Wow, ACA is a pretty powerful chit then. Obama gets one free disastrous war before most liberals think he failed. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2014, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-admire-the-tenacity-of-republicans/693614/612 "2014-07-24T17:09:02Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Hmm, where were we hearing that before? Oh yeah, Bush partisans were using that argument against Democrats. Except they were wrong. There was a strong, consistent position among Democrats and the then-existing sane-Republican faction. Before the invasion: “Don’t do it”. After it: “Get out”. We all know now what you should have known then, that that view was the right one. > [@](#): > > Foreign policy does not lend itself to “He should do this instead of that” arguments. Hell yes it does. That’s what discussions of it are _about_. > [@](#): > > There’s no way to predict what an alternative would do. Only true for the willfully ignorant. I know of an example of the kind, too. > [@](#): > > What we do know is that not only are the President’s ideas not working, but it’s not even clear he’s really all that engaged, which is the real problem. It’s become a running theme in his Presidency. In what alternate universe? ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2014, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-admire-the-tenacity-of-republicans/693614/613 "2014-07-24T17:09:25Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Hmm, where were we hearing that before? Oh yeah, Bush partisans were using that argument against Democrats. > > Foreign policy does not lend itself to “He should do this instead of that” arguments. There’s no way to predict what an alternative would do. What we do know is that not only are the President’s ideas not working, but it’s not even clear he’s really all that engaged, which is the real problem. It’s become a running theme in his Presidency. This is total crap. Democrats had good ideas, like don’t invade Iraq. We suggested that a lot actually, remember? Turns out that would have worked out better after all, so you are completely wrong here, no surprise. Ok so you have nothing to suggest that the US could be doing differently, but you just know that we’re doing everything wrong. Got it. And this entire post is just more Hannity-esque bullshit, totally void of any facts. What do you think you bring to the table here Adaher? Do you think your efforts raise the level of discourse, or lower it? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2014, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-admire-the-tenacity-of-republicans/693614/614 "2014-07-24T17:09:22Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Stop ignoring extensive poll data. Are you arguing that they are skewed? Or are you still sticking to your story that this is a temporary condition? Your statement was not a factual statement – it was all opinion. And it was Hannity-esque opinion. > [@](#): > > Oh, I see the problem. You have a different bar than the average person. Gee, he didn’t get us into a disastrous war, and he passed a law that you liked that is “succeeding” the way most social programs do in liberal eyes: by getting people signed up and spending a lot of money. Silly, bullshit analysis. > [@](#): > > By that definition, you’ll be one of those deadenders like we saw in the last year of the Bush administration, when he was sitting at 25% but a few kept insisting he was a doing a great job. Obama is not doing a great job. He is far from the president I want him to be. Nevertheless, he is a way, way better President than Bush, and way, way better than McCain or Romney would have been. You fail, again, at trying to analyze my opinion of Obama, much less his actual accomplishments. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2014, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-admire-the-tenacity-of-republicans/693614/615 "2014-07-24T17:10:27Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Ridiculously low bar. Why is his handling of health care rated so poorly by the public in the polls I cited? Nope, you still don’t get it, do you? > [@](#): > > Wow, ACA is a pretty powerful chit then. Sure is. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2014, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-admire-the-tenacity-of-republicans/693614/616 "2014-07-24T17:10:54Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I have no idea what you were saying in 2004 – you didn’t join our fun loving community until later. You can rest easy knowing that I confidently predicted that Bush would win by a hair in OH, with a small popular-vote lead. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2014, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-admire-the-tenacity-of-republicans/693614/617 "2014-07-24T17:14:02Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Except they were wrong. There was a strong, consistent position among Democrats and the then-existing sane-Republican faction. Before the invasion: “Don’t do it”. After it: “Get out”. We all know now what you should have known then, that that view was the right one. The afterwards is primarily where we challenged Democrats to come up with a solution and “Get out” wasn’t it among the sane faction of the Democratic Party. At least not quickly, before Iraq was stabilized enough for the Iraqi military to handle things. On the before, yeah, the Democrats were right, those that opposed the war, but that’s not the end of the discussion. Do you continue the containment policy that killed 1 million Iraq children in its first 12 years a more humane alternative to war? > [@](#): > > Hell yes it does. That’s what discussions of it are _about_. Foreign policy is driven by events and you can’t prove counterfactuals. I can say that on Iraq, the President should commit airpower as the Iraqi government has requested, but I can’t prove a better result from that. > [@](#): > > In what alternate universe? YOu don’t read much, do you? ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2014, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-admire-the-tenacity-of-republicans/693614/618 "2014-07-24T17:17:01Z")
> [@Airbeck](#): > > This is total crap. Democrats had good ideas, like don’t invade Iraq. We suggested that a lot actually, remember? Turns out that would have worked out better after all, so you are completely wrong here, no surprise. > > Ok so you have nothing to suggest that the US could be doing differently, but you just know that we’re doing everything wrong. Got it. And this entire post is just more Hannity-esque bullshit, totally void of any facts. > > What do you think you bring to the table here Adaher? Do you think your efforts raise the level of discourse, or lower it? I can tell you what the US should be doing differently, and you’ll say, "That would make things worse!’ And I’d say “uh uh, it’d make it better.” If you feel that enriches the discussion, then we can go there if you want. I’ve got time. As for three posters’ constant references to Sean Hannity, I’ve cited extensive poll data on the President’s deep unpopularity. The public agrees more with me about him failing to do his job than with the three of you. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2014, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-admire-the-tenacity-of-republicans/693614/619 "2014-07-24T17:18:05Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > You can rest easy knowing that I confidently predicted that Bush would win by a hair in OH, with a small popular-vote lead. Wow, you are good. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2014, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-admire-the-tenacity-of-republicans/693614/620 "2014-07-24T17:19:50Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > As for three posters’ constant references to Sean Hannity, I’ve cited extensive poll data on the President’s deep unpopularity. The public agrees more with me about him failing to do his job than with the three of you. No, a slight majority (depending on the day) disapproves of his performance. Hell, at times, I’ve disapproved of his performance. That’s not even close to the same thing as believing he is “failing to do his job”, or is a “failed president”. That stuff is just Hannity-esque nonsense. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-admire-the-tenacity-of-republicans/693614.md?page=30) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-admire-the-tenacity-of-republicans/693614.md?page=32)