# I agree with al Qaeda.... **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 13, 2007, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-agree-with-al-qaeda/392023 "2007-02-13T15:39:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2007, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-agree-with-al-qaeda/392023/1 "2007-02-13T15:39:15Z")
…at least with what the [No. 2 aQ guy](http://abcnews.go.com/International/story?id=2870496) has to say about Bush: > [@](#): > > The latest taped statement from al Qaeda is an unusually personal attack on President Bush, in which al Qaeda’s No. 2 in command, Ayman al Zawahiri, denounces Bush as “an alcoholic, liar and gambler with an addictive personality.” A stopped clock and all that. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2007, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-agree-with-al-qaeda/392023/2 "2007-02-13T16:17:08Z")
This doesn’t surprise me. You’ve often made medical diagnoses on this MB based on the flimsiest of evidence. I believe Bush is a self proclaimed recovering alcoholic (even if he didn’t use that precise term), but I’ve seen no evidence at all that he’s a gambler, or that he has an addictive personality, in general. Are you going to share with us the evidence you used in determining your medical diagnosis? ---
**Author:** ![NurseCarmen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5daacb/32.png) [@NurseCarmen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NurseCarmen)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2007, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-agree-with-al-qaeda/392023/3 "2007-02-13T17:45:44Z")
Are you going to ask the same from Ayman al Zawahiri, John? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2007, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-agree-with-al-qaeda/392023/4 "2007-02-13T17:46:17Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] This doesn’t surprise me. You’ve often made medical diagnoses on this MB based on the flimsiest of evidence. I believe Bush is a self proclaimed recovering alcoholic (even if he didn’t use that precise term), but I’ve seen no evidence at all that he’s a gambler, or that he has an addictive personality, in general. Are you going to share with us the evidence you used in determining your medical diagnosis? [/QUOTE] Well “addictive personality” is kind of a misnomer because there’s really no such thing. Addiction is not a personality disorder but a genetically derived, biological disorder of the reward system in the brain. If Bush is an alcoholic then he is an addict by definition, regardless of recovery, and all addiction is fundamentally rooted in the same physiological disorder of the brain. It’s very common for addicts to replace one kind of addiction with another (for instance, substituting sex or gambling for alcohol or drugs), in order to relieve the same craving for reward. I think that religion can be an addiction as well. Now, it looks like you aren’t denying that Bush is an alcoholic (therefore an “addictive personality” in the vernacuar sense), or that he’s a liar, only that there is evidence that he’s a gambler. I thought the “gambler” accusation was an interesting, perhaps even insightful evaluation of Bush’s actions in Iraq. Everything he’s done there has been a gamble and it could be argued, figuratively, at least, that he’s following the classic gambler’s trajectory of chasing his losses with this latest (extremely ill-advised) push for an escalation of troops. If he is even partially motivated by the thrill seeking/risk taking rewards caused by his addiction disorder, it would have some explanatory power that I hadn’t considered before. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2007, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-agree-with-al-qaeda/392023/5 "2007-02-13T17:53:28Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] I’ve seen no evidence at all that he’s a gambler, [/QUOTE] To me the stakes seem pretty high. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2007, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-agree-with-al-qaeda/392023/6 "2007-02-13T18:01:57Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] . . . but I’ve seen no evidence at all that he’s a gambler . . . [/QUOTE] I have a friend who, when much younger, had a gambling problem. Then he became a (very successful) stockbroker. He got to gamble with other people’s money. Less risky, and every bit as fun! 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2007, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-agree-with-al-qaeda/392023/7 "2007-02-13T18:02:24Z")
Zawahiri would hate whoever was president of the U.S. I don’t think his insults were based on any deep analysis of Bush’s psychology, but were one off rhetorical flourishes. I’m not sure why they’re particularly interesting. > [@Nurse Carmen](#): > > Are you going to ask the same from Ayman al Zawahiri, John? Well I would, but the dude won’t return my phone calls. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2007, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-agree-with-al-qaeda/392023/8 "2007-02-13T18:11:00Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] Well “addictive personality” is kind of a misnomer because there’s really no such thing. Addiction is not a personality disorder but a genetically derived, biological disorder of the reward system in the brain. If Bush is an alcoholic then he is an addict by definition, regardless of recovery, and all addiction is fundamentally rooted in the same physiological disorder of the brain. [/quote] Well, that solves that mystery. You will, no doubt, be receiving the Nobel Prize in medicine for that discovery…? When’s the announcement? > [@](#): > > It’s very common for addicts to replace one kind of addiction with another (for instance, substituting sex or gambling for alcohol or drugs), in order to relieve the same craving for reward. I think that religion can be an addiction as well. Even if it were “very common”, that doesn’t make it “certain”. You’ve taken quite a leap. > [@](#): > > Now, it looks like you aren’t denying that Bush is an alcoholic (therefore an “addictive personality” in the vernacuar sense)… Not in an addictive sense. People can have have problems with alcohol without being “addicted”. That’s how I was using the term-- very losely, in the sense of someone who has chosen to give it up. > [@](#): > > or that he’s a liar, Only because it’s a meaningless term-- is there anyone who hasn’t lied and therefore could be called a liar? You might as well say he is a member of the species _H. sapiens_. > [@](#): > > ..only that there is evidence that he’s a gambler. > > I thought the “gambler” accusation was an interesting, perhaps even insightful evaluation of Bush’s actions in Iraq. Everything he’s done there has been a gamble and it could be argued, figuratively, at least, that he’s following the classic gambler’s trajectory of chasing his losses with this latest (extremely ill-advised) push for an escalation of troops. If he is even partially motivated by the thrill seeking/risk taking rewards caused by his addiction disorder, it would have some explanatory power that I hadn’t considered before. Eh. That’s another stretch of the definition. He might as easily be called “incompetent”, and that would cover it just as well. But “gambler” brings up visions of going to the horse races-- especially since it’s in connection with addictive behavior. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2007, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-agree-with-al-qaeda/392023/9 "2007-02-13T18:12:11Z")
[QUOTE=NurseCarmen] Are you going to ask the same from Ayman al Zawahiri, John? [/QUOTE] Yeah, as soon as he registers here and begins posting. When will that be? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2007, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-agree-with-al-qaeda/392023/10 "2007-02-13T18:15:07Z")
I somehow find it entirely unsurprising that Dio would ally with questionable people making questionable diagnoses, if they’re critical of Bush. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2007, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-agree-with-al-qaeda/392023/11 "2007-02-13T18:17:44Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] …at least with what the [No. 2 aQ guy](http://abcnews.go.com/International/story?id=2870496) has to say about Bush: A stopped clock and all that. [/QUOTE] Wonderful. Is there no depth you will stoop to to piss on Bush? No shit you will swim through? You might want to ask yourself why you would take time out of your day to post your partisan stupidity. If you come up with an answer beyond that you are blinded by your hatred for Bush to such an extent that you are willing to crawl in the sewer with the most vile scum just to deliver another salvo, I’d be curious as to what it is. In the meantime, this OP says more about you than it does Bush or the al Qaeda #2. Thanks for the education. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2007, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-agree-with-al-qaeda/392023/12 "2007-02-13T18:18:47Z")
[QUOTE=Bryan Ekers] I somehow find it entirely unsurprising that Dio would ally with questionable people making questionable diagnoses, if they’re critical of Bush. [/QUOTE] Exactly. I’m still trying to figure out what is being pitted here-- is \*\*Dio \*\*pitting himself for agreeing with spurious claims made by religious fanatic and a terrorist? ---
**Author:** ![PunditLisa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/4af34b/32.png) [@PunditLisa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PunditLisa)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2007, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-agree-with-al-qaeda/392023/13 "2007-02-13T18:24:12Z")
I’m sure there is one thing among his irrational ramblings that Charles Manson and I agree on. However, I wouldn’t open up a Pit Thread proclaiming “I agree with Charles Manson” because I realize that no matter what merit a single statement he made may have, he was still a ruthless butcher, and citing him as if he held any credibility in a civilized discussion would detract from my argument and make me look like a provocative asshole. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2007, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-agree-with-al-qaeda/392023/14 "2007-02-13T18:29:25Z")
[QUOTE=magellan01] If you come up with an answer beyond that you are blinded by your hatred for Bush to such an extent that you are willing to crawl in the sewer with the most vile scum just to deliver another salvo, I’d be curious as to what it is. [/QUOTE] Why would **Dio** be crawling in the sewer with Bush? I don’t think he even _likes_ him. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2007, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-agree-with-al-qaeda/392023/15 "2007-02-13T18:35:46Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] Well, that solves that mystery. [/quote] what mystery? > [@](#): > > You will, no doubt, be receiving the Nobel Prize in medicine for that discovery…? When’s the announcement? What do you think I’m saying that’s new. I’m getting my info from the standard medical literature on the subject. Read [this Q&A](http://www.medicinenet.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=54633) from Dr. Drew Pinsky (famous for “Loveline” but an Addiction Medicine Specialist in his practice). > [@](#): > > Dr. Drew: First, let’s understand what addiction is, if you’re going to decide whether something is or is not an addiction. Addiction is a specific biological disorder of the reward systems of the brain that permanently alters the survival system and thus the motivational priorities. > > \ > Moderator: Let’s talk more about the definition of addiction. Is any behavior that we lose control over considered an addiction, in your mind? Or have we gone “addiction crazy” in the last few years, tagging all vices as addictive? > > Dr. Drew: We have gone a little addiction crazy. We use the term very sloppily and inaccurately. One of the most common definitions used in the addiction field is: a biological disorder with a genetic basis. Its hallmark is progressive use in the face of adverse consequence (effects on school or work, health, finance, legal, relationships). There is also a component of denial. > > And if one is to look at a behavior as an addictive behavior, in the majority of cases, the addictive process is first triggered by a pharmacological agent. > > Member question: Is addiction a result of an unresolved issue or fear? How do your emotions play a part in addictions? > > Dr. Drew: Addiction is a biological switch having been thrown in the deep regions of the brain. For the most part emotional disregulation is why people go to drugs in the first place: Difficulty regulating feelings, trying to feel better, seeking solutions to emotional states, and inadvertently throwing that switch. > [@](#): > > Even if it were “very common”, that doesn’t make it “certain”. You’ve taken quite a leap. I didn’t say 'certain," but it’s plausible. The craving of the reward system is certain. > [@](#): > > Not in an addictive sense. People can have have problems with alcohol without being “addicted”. That’s how I was using the term-- very losely, in the sense of someone who has chosen to give it up. Then you don’t understand how the term is defined medically. One of the criteria for a diagnosis of addiction is continued use in spite of negative consequences. If you have a “problem” with it, then you are an addict, by the medical definition. > [@](#): > > Eh. That’s another stretch of the definition. He might as easily be called “incompetent”, and that would cover it just as well. But “gambler” brings up visions of going to the horse races-- especially since it’s in connection with addictive behavior. Maybe to you, but that’s only because you don’t seem to have read much about addiction or addictive behavior. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2007, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-agree-with-al-qaeda/392023/16 "2007-02-13T18:44:13Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] Well “addictive personality” is kind of a misnomer because there’s really no such thing. [/QUOTE] But how can you agree with al Zawahiri if there is no such thing? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2007, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-agree-with-al-qaeda/392023/17 "2007-02-13T18:44:22Z")
[QUOTE=PunditLisa] I’m sure there is one thing among his irrational ramblings that Charles Manson and I agree on. [/QUOTE] We both like the Beatles. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2007, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-agree-with-al-qaeda/392023/18 "2007-02-13T18:48:50Z")
[QUOTE=Liberal] But how can you agree with al Zawahiri if there is no such thing? [/QUOTE] I know what he meant, even if he got the terminology wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2007, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-agree-with-al-qaeda/392023/19 "2007-02-13T18:53:01Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] is \*\*Dio \*\*pitting himself for agreeing with spurious claims made by religious fanatic and a terrorist? [/QUOTE] Well, it wouldn’t be undeserved, as Pit threads go. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2007, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-agree-with-al-qaeda/392023/20 "2007-02-13T18:57:42Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] Exactly. I’m still trying to figure out what is being pitted here-- is \*\*Dio \*\*pitting himself for agreeing with spurious claims made by religious fanatic and a terrorist? [/QUOTE] _Ad hominem_ fallacy. Just because al Zawahiri is a fanatic and a terrorist doesn’t mean every claim he makes is necessarily spurious. Is it really so far-fetched that Bush could be motivated by addictive behaviors? Is it beyond the realm of possibility that an enemy – even a despicable, violent, terrorist nutjob – might be able to show some insight into the personality of our leaders? Ben Franklin said “our enemies show us our faults.” Just because the aQ guy is evil doesn’t mean he might not have nailed a genuine motivation in Bush’s behavior. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-agree-with-al-qaeda/392023.md?page=2)