# I agree with al Qaeda.... **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 13, 2007, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-agree-with-al-qaeda/392023 "2007-02-13T15:39:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2007, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-agree-with-al-qaeda/392023/41 "2007-02-13T23:56:21Z")
Give ir, Mace. The bitch is an alcoholic. It’s an easy call. 20 years of heavy daily use in the face of negative consequences shows “craving,” _ipso facto_. DUI busts and stuff like driving home blasted, dragging a trash can under his car, then challenging his dad to a fight shows loss of control. You don’t know that Bush did not go through withdrawal. I assume he did, but I wouldn’t expect him to advertize it. By the way, the fact that he now doesn’t drink at all, shows an awareness of an inability to maintain moderate use. Plus his kids are drunks too. It’s genetic. Why is it so important to you to think that Bush was a NON-alcoholic heavy daily drinker with consequences for 20 years? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2007, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-agree-with-al-qaeda/392023/42 "2007-02-14T00:00:43Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] Why is it so important to you to think that Bush was a NON-alcoholic heavy daily drinker with consequences for 20 years? [/QUOTE] It should be obvious why it’s important to me. 😉 You were in the military. I grew up in a military family, and part of that life is cocktails in the evening-- every evening. I aw it all over the place. That’s just the way it was, 30 or 40 years ago. Bush could just as easily be a product of that environment. You are judging his behavior 30 years ago be the standards of today. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2007, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-agree-with-al-qaeda/392023/43 "2007-02-14T00:01:23Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] Anyone who would offer a diagnosis from afar is a quack, including you. [/QUOTE] Where did you get the impression that diagnosing alcoholism is some kind of tricky, complex procedure? It’s not that much more difficult than being able to “diagnose” that somebody doesn’t have a leg. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2007, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-agree-with-al-qaeda/392023/44 "2007-02-14T00:10:42Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] It should be obvious why it’s important to me. 😉 You were in the military. I grew up in a military family, and part of that life is cocktails in the evening-- every evening. I aw it all over the place. That’s just the way it was, 30 or 40 years ago. Bush could just as easily be a product of that environment. You are judging his behavior 30 years ago be the standards of today. [/QUOTE] If it was just youthful behavior, or college behavior or ANG behavior, it would be one thing. Continued heavy, daily use for 20 years is more than environmental. I knew people who drank heavily in the Navy and in college. they were young. It was the culture, but most of them grew out of it at some point. They were at least able to _skip a day_ 10 or 15 years down the road. The few who continued with daily use were no question about it alcoholics. Tolerance, withdrawal, DTs, the whole bit. I have an alcoholic parent, so maybe I’m a little sensitive about denials, but I went to enough AA and Al-Anon meeting to know that those alcoholics (and family members of alcoholics) would not have let Bush get away with denying his own problem. ---
**Author:** ![PunditLisa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/4af34b/32.png) [@PunditLisa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PunditLisa)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2007, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-agree-with-al-qaeda/392023/45 "2007-02-14T00:14:35Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] I think Clinton was probably a sex addict, for what it’s worth. [/QUOTE] Fair enough. Let’s go back to '97 and pretend this message board was around then. Let’s say Poster X, who has a long documented history of Clinton bashing, started a pit thread entitled: **“I agree with Pol Pot…”** And then described how Pol Pot had given an interview where he denounced President Clinton, calling him a sex addict. How do you suppose rational people would have reacted? It is just such a bizarre, stupidly provocative thread that I cannot believe you hit the “submit thread” button. Even if you had removed the ill-advised inclusion of the genocidal maniac from the OP, you’re STILL left with a ridiculous thread. Bush has an addictive personality; Clinton is a sex addict. Who cares? Either present a thread with merit or be prepared to have rocks thrown at you. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2007, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-agree-with-al-qaeda/392023/46 "2007-02-14T00:37:01Z")
[QUOTE=PunditLisa] Fair enough. Let’s go back to '97 and pretend this message board was around then. Let’s say Poster X, who has a long documented history of Clinton bashing, started a pit thread entitled: **“I agree with Pol Pot…”** And then described how Pol Pot had given an interview where he denounced President Clinton, calling him a sex addict. How do you suppose rational people would have reacted? [/quote] I wouldn’t have given a fuck. I probably would have agreed. > [@](#): > > Even if you had removed the ill-advised inclusion of the genocidal maniac from the OP, you’re STILL left with a ridiculous thread. Bush has an addictive personality; Clinton is a sex addict. Who cares? Either present a thread with merit or be prepared to have rocks thrown at you. There has been more to my comments than than Bush is an addict. I think the terrorist raised an interesting question that hadn’t occurred to me before. Namely, whether Bush’s addiction was driving his reckless decisions in Iraq. All this pearl clutching over the thread title was an unintended consequence of a bad joke which I did not intend to be my central point. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2007, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-agree-with-al-qaeda/392023/47 "2007-02-14T01:18:04Z")
Clinton was a sex addict? And Pol Pot had a problem with that? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2007, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-agree-with-al-qaeda/392023/48 "2007-02-14T01:23:03Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] If it was just youthful behavior, or college behavior or ANG behavior, it would be one thing. Continued heavy, daily use for 20 years is more than environmental. I knew people who drank heavily in the Navy and in college. they were young. It was the culture, but most of them grew out of it at some point. They were at least able to _skip a day_ 10 or 15 years down the road. The few who continued with daily use were no question about it alcoholics. Tolerance, withdrawal, DTs, the whole bit. I have an alcoholic parent, so maybe I’m a little sensitive about denials, but I went to enough AA and Al-Anon meeting to know that those alcoholics (and family members of alcoholics) would not have let Bush get away with denying his own problem. [/QUOTE] Since you’ve been slinging claims of logical fallacies against me, I’ll point that you are guilty of affirming the consequent here: If a person craves alcohol, he drinks it every day. Bush drank alcohol every day, therefore he craved alcohol. And that only addresses the first of the 4 symptoms-- you haven’t addressed any of the other 3 symptoms. I drink coffee almost everyday. Am I a coffee addict? I never crave it, it’s just part of my morming routine. If I’m too busy to get a cup in the AM, I never even think about it. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2007, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-agree-with-al-qaeda/392023/49 "2007-02-14T01:31:51Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] Since you’ve been slinging claims of logical fallacies against me, I’ll point that you are guilty of affirming the consequent here: If a person craves alcohol, he drinks it every day. Bush drank alcohol every day, therefore he craved alcohol. And that only addresses the first of the 4 symptoms-- you haven’t addressed any of the other 3 symptoms. [/quote] Anyone who drinks it every day for 20 years must crave it on some level. > [@](#): > > I drink coffee almost everyday. Am I a coffee addict? I never crave it, it’s just part of my morming routine. If I’m too busy to get a cup in the AM, I never even think about it. Hardly the same thing. You may have a mild dependency, but caffeine dependency isn’t really addiction. There’s a distinction between dependency and addiction. By your own admission, you can skip the coffee sometimes. Bush said he never skipped the alcohol, even when it was damaging his life. ---
**Author:** ![PunditLisa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/4af34b/32.png) [@PunditLisa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PunditLisa)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2007, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-agree-with-al-qaeda/392023/50 "2007-02-14T01:36:24Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] There has been more to my comments than than Bush is an addict. I think the terrorist raised an interesting question that hadn’t occurred to me before. Namely, whether Bush’s addiction was driving his reckless decisions in Iraq. [/QUOTE] If we’re going to be armchair psychologists, then I’d assert that his “Texan mentality” is driving his reckless behavior more than his “additive personality.” Of course, I’m not a terrorist nor would I do the Snoopy happy dance if President Bush were assassinated, so take my assertion with a grain of salt. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2007, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-agree-with-al-qaeda/392023/51 "2007-02-14T01:40:14Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] Anyone who drinks it every day for 20 years must crave it on some level. [/QUOTE] How about ten years? I drank it every day for about ten years and then stopped cold when I lived with my Mormon relatives for about a year. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2007, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-agree-with-al-qaeda/392023/52 "2007-02-14T01:52:54Z")
[QUOTE=Contrapuntal] How about ten years? I drank it every day for about ten years and then stopped cold when I lived with my Mormon relatives for about a year. [/QUOTE] Did you drink “heavily” for ten years, as Bush says he did? Did it cause negative consequences in your life? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2007, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-agree-with-al-qaeda/392023/53 "2007-02-14T02:33:13Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] Did you drink “heavily” for ten years, as Bush says he did? Did it cause negative consequences in your life? [/QUOTE] Can we have a quote that Bush claimed he “drank heavily” for 10 years? You keep switching from “drank daily” to “drank heavily” and I think you’re trying to imply that he drank heavily every day. Anyway, I’m suspicious that you’re quoting him accurately, so let’s see a primary source (and not some lefty blog). ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2007, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-agree-with-al-qaeda/392023/54 "2007-02-14T02:42:16Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] Did you drink “heavily” for ten years, as Bush says he did? Did it cause negative consequences in your life? [/QUOTE] A bit of goal post shifting, eh? At any rate, I drank 1 - 2 six-packs a day. I never missed work, never got a DWI, never had a wreck … It was a pretty aimless period in my life, but it would be hard to argue one way or another if I drank because I was aimless or I was aimless because I drank. I really enjoyed it but had little or no trouble stopping. If I drank that much today it would be problem. Now I drink some and stop for a while when my weight gets up a bit. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2007, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-agree-with-al-qaeda/392023/55 "2007-02-14T02:55:46Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] Can we have a quote that Bush claimed he “drank heavily” for 10 years? You keep switching from “drank daily” to “drank heavily” and I think you’re trying to imply that he drank heavily every day. Anyway, I’m suspicious that you’re quoting him accurately, so let’s see a primary source (and not some lefty blog). [/QUOTE] I don’t frequent lefty blogs. [Here’s this](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_W._Bush_substance_abuse_controversy) from wiki: > [@](#): > > Bush has described his days before his religious conversion in his 40s as his “nomadic” period and “irresponsible youth” and admitted to drinking “too much” in those years. In Fortunate Son: George W. Bush and the Making of an American President by James Hatfield, Bush is quoted as saying that “alcohol began to compete with my energies … I’d lose focus”. Although Bush states that he was not an alcoholic, he has acknowledged that he was “drinking too much” (as reported by Nicholas Kristof in How Bush Came to Tame His Inner Scamp, The New York Times, July 29, 2000), and that he couldn’t remember a day when he hadn’t had a drink, including his stay at Philips Academy, where not only was he underage but alcohol was prohibited on campus, as well as at Yale where, conversely, “hard drinking” was considered a badge of honor (as reported in Fortunate Son: George W. Bush and the Making of an American President by James Hatfield). > > Bush’s drinking may not have caused problems were it not for his tendency to become excessively uninhibited, according to reports of friends. In the article referenced above, Kristof quotes Bush’s cousin Elsie Walker as saying, “He was a riot. But afterward, when you’re older, that can wear thin”, and gives the example of Bush asking a “proper” female friend of his parents at a family cocktail party, “So, what’s sex like after 50, anyway?” > > ``` > * In December, 1966, he was arrested for disorderly conduct after he and some friends had "a few beers" and stole a Christmas wreath from a hotel. [4] The charges were later dropped. > * On September 4, 1976, Bush was arrested for driving under the influence of alcohol near his family's summer home in Kennebunkport, Maine. He admitted his guilt, was fined $150, and had his driving license in the state suspended for two years, implying two prior convictions. [The White House had claimed 30 days, the document shows two years.] [5] This incident did not become public knowledge until it was reported in the press in the week before the 2000 election. > > ``` > > The most notorious episode, reported in numerous diverse sources including U.S. News & World Report, November 1, 1999, Secrecy & Privilege: Rise of the Bush Dynasty from Watergate to Iraq by Robert Parry, First Son: George W. Bush and the Bush Family Dynasty by Bill Minutaglio, and W: Revenge of the Bush Dynasty by Elizabeth Mitchell, has 26 year old George W. Bush, visiting his parents in Washington, D. C. over the Christmas vacation in 1972 shortly after the death of his grandfather, taking his 16 year old brother Marvin out drinking. On the way home, George lost control of the car and ran over a garbage can, but continued home with the can wedged noisily under the car. When his father, George H. W. Bush, called him on the carpet for not only his own behavior but for exposing his younger brother to risk, George W., still under the influence, retorted angrily, “I hear you’re looking for me. You wanna go mano a mano right here?” Before the elder Bush could reply, the situation was defused by brother Jeb, who took the opportunity to surprise his father with the happy news that George W. had been accepted to Harvard Business School. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2007, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-agree-with-al-qaeda/392023/56 "2007-02-14T03:00:17Z")
[QUOTE=Contrapuntal] A bit of goal post shifting, eh? [/quote] Not at all. Negative consequences is a necessary criterion. Also “daily use” could mean as little as a glass of wine. Both questions are relevant. > [@](#): > > At any rate, I drank 1 - 2 six-packs a day. I never missed work, never got a DWI, never had a wreck … It was a pretty aimless period in my life, but it would be hard to argue one way or another if I drank because I was aimless or I was aimless because I drank. I really enjoyed it but had little or no trouble stopping. If I drank that much today it would be problem. Now I drink some and stop for a while when my weight gets up a bit. Did you literally drink that much _every_ day for all those years? Did you ever skip a day? Skip a week? If you did, I’d have to lean toward saying you probably are an addict. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2007, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-agree-with-al-qaeda/392023/57 "2007-02-14T03:03:44Z")
**Dio,** One question: Looking at all this bullshit you’ve been posting concerning addiction, do you think this is at all what was meant by the al Qaeda murderer you originally cited? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2007, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-agree-with-al-qaeda/392023/58 "2007-02-14T03:07:03Z")
[QUOTE=magellan01] **Dio,** One question: Looking at all this bullshit you’ve been posting concerning addiction, do you think this is at all what was meant by the al Qaeda murderer you originally cited? [/QUOTE] Yes. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2007, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-agree-with-al-qaeda/392023/59 "2007-02-14T03:10:09Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] Not at all. Negative consequences is a necessary criterion. Also “daily use” could mean as little as a glass of wine. Both questions are relevant. Did you literally drink that much _every_ day for all those years? Did you ever skip a day? Skip a week? If you did, I’d have to lean toward saying you probably are an addict. [/QUOTE] Just to clarify this before you get defensive, what I really think is that you may be exaggerating your frequency of use for effect. Somebody who literally drinks 6-12 beers every single day, without fail, for 10 years without being an alcoholic would be an exception rather than the rule. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2007, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-agree-with-al-qaeda/392023/60 "2007-02-14T03:25:42Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] Yes. [/QUOTE] Wow. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-agree-with-al-qaeda/392023.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-agree-with-al-qaeda/392023.md?page=4)