# I agree with Caligula: "Aren't people AWFUL?" **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 21, 2005, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-agree-with-caligula-arent-people-awful/285966 "2005-01-21T20:39:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2005, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-agree-with-caligula-arent-people-awful/285966/21 "2005-01-21T21:48:27Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > How about you show me how people deal with sorrow, loss, and the deaths of millions _in the real world_, and then show me how that amounts to more than pissing in the wind. And then tell me how people deal with death of the heart. > > Please. I gave you the answer; you’re just not paying attention. In any event, this is turning into a fun thread, so I’m not going to inject any more seriousness into it. " Life is far too important a thing ever to talk seriously about"–Oscar Wilde. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2005, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-agree-with-caligula-arent-people-awful/285966/22 "2005-01-21T21:49:22Z")
If I may ask, **Contrapuntal** , is your disdain in this thread for fiction, science fiction, or television in general? ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2005, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-agree-with-caligula-arent-people-awful/285966/23 "2005-01-21T21:54:51Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > Well once again, with all due respect, I fail to see what lesson about life there is to be gleaned from a TV science fiction show. (Disclaimer–I don’t have television and have never seen the show.) I am reminded of a (probably apocryphal) remark from William James to his brother Henry when the latter complained about writer’s block. To wit: “Writer’s block? You\* make that stuff up\*. Every thing I write is _carved from the living rock of truth_.” > > How about you show me how people deal with sorrow, loss, and the deaths of millions _in the real world_, and then show me how that amounts to more than pissing in the wind. And then tell me how people deal with death of the heart. > > Please. Blah blah blah. How about you explain to me why each and every person who doesn’t have a television feels the need to inform everyone whenever the tiniest possibility shows itself? Fuck, that pretentious shit gets old fast. -Joe ---
**Author:** ![Ghost\_of\_Marlowe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Ghost\_of\_Marlowe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ghost_of_Marlowe)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2005, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-agree-with-caligula-arent-people-awful/285966/24 "2005-01-21T21:55:07Z")
> [@gobear](#): > > And another: > > . . . Then I thought, wouldn’t it be much worse if life were fair, and all the terrible things that happen to us come because we actually deserve them? . . . That’s one reason I don’t like Buddhism and all its underlying assumptions. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2005, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-agree-with-caligula-arent-people-awful/285966/25 "2005-01-21T22:03:07Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > If I may ask, **Contrapuntal** , is your disdain in this thread for fiction, science fiction, or television in general? None of the above. (OK I’m not a big fan of TV) I simply feel that a TV science fiction show is unequal to the task of consoling someone who is overwhelmed by man’s inhumanity to man. The qoute offered, if indicative of the depth to which Babylon 5 explores the human condition, did nothing to disabuse me of that belief. Specifically, the juxtaposition of “cease (sic) that one fragile moment” against the lifetime of terror, uncertainty, and confusion. Juvenile stuff, really, and not terribly original. And what does that tell us bout the real world? I am a huge fan of fiction, actually. One of my favorite English professors, who used to tear up when reading passages by Fitrzgerald, cautioned us that while we may love and be immersed in well written fiction, we should confuse it with real life at our own peril. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2005, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-agree-with-caligula-arent-people-awful/285966/26 "2005-01-21T22:11:42Z")
> [@Merijeek](#): > > Blah blah blah. > > How about you explain to me why each and every person who doesn’t have a television feels the need to inform everyone whenever the tiniest possibility shows itself? > > Fuck, that pretentious shit gets old fast. > > -Joe 1. I really have no idea whether what you said is even true or not. You only know about the ones who _do_ inform you, after all. 2. I mentioned it because **gobear** suggested I watch the show. 3. Why does everyone with an axe to grind choose every available stone for the grinding? Feeling a bit defensive about our entertainment choices, are we? ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2005, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-agree-with-caligula-arent-people-awful/285966/27 "2005-01-21T22:22:26Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > 1. I really have no idea whether what you said is even true or not. You only know about the ones who _do_ inform you, after all. Yeah, but somehow it comes up with impressive regularity. Strange, though, I have no idea which Dopers own a garage, ride a bike, or are members of the Freemasons. > [@Contrapuntal](#): > > 1. I mentioned it because **gobear** suggested I watch the show. Yup. That’s why I used the phrase “whenever the tiniest possibility presents itself”. Ever read Terry Pratchett? I have no idea…even though someone on this thread brought it up. Ever had a stranger jumpstart your car? I don’t know on that one either, even though it was brought up by someone in this thread. Yet somehow I do know that you don’t have a TV. > [@Contrapuntal](#): > > 1. Why does everyone with an axe to grind choose every available stone for the grinding? Feeling a bit defensive about our entertainment choices, are we? Nah, not defensive. Between Malcolm, 24, and Scrubs I’m looking at a whole two hours a week wasted on TV. Apart from that, what axe do I have to grind? I’m sorry, sweetheart, you’re not that important to me. If I’ve bumped into you before, I have absolutely no recollection of it. I doubt I’ve been missing out, however. -Joe ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2005, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-agree-with-caligula-arent-people-awful/285966/28 "2005-01-21T22:33:32Z")
[QUOTE=Merijeek] > [@](#): > > Yup. That’s why I used the phrase “whenever the tiniest possibility presents itself”. He suggested I watch the show. I can’t because I don’t have TV. What should I have said. Just plain no? I was explaining to him why I was and would be unfamiliar with the show. You might want get a little tougher hide. > [@](#): > > Apart from that, what axe do I have to grind? I’m sorry, sweetheart, you’re not that important to me. If I’ve bumped into you before, I have absolutely no recollection of it. I wasn’t suggesting we had a previous encounter. It seems you have a problem with people who don’t watch TV, and chose my post to scratch your itch. Like I said, a bit thicker skin would be helpful. > [@](#): > > I doubt I’ve been missing out, however. -Joe Probably not. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2005, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-agree-with-caligula-arent-people-awful/285966/29 "2005-01-21T22:49:34Z")
"And if everyone lit just one little candle… …some asshole would come along and blow them out." “The pessimist sees the darkness around him. The optimist sees the light at the end of the tunnel. The realist recognizes that the light at the end of the tunnel is probably a train which will run him down.” But, honestly, I’m with **gobear** : Whether or not we try to find and do goodness in this world, the same worldly fate beckons us. So try to make life a bit more enjoyable for yourself and those around you, and “Rage, rage against the coming of the night.” ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2005, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-agree-with-caligula-arent-people-awful/285966/30 "2005-01-21T22:49:41Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > None of the above. (OK I’m not a big fan of TV) I simply feel that a TV science fiction show is unequal to the task of consoling someone who is overwhelmed by man’s inhumanity to man. That pretty much depends on the character and interests of the person being consoled, doesn’t it? I quite like _Babylon 5_. I don’t much care for Henry James. If I’m feeling down, I’m more likely to pop in a DVD with something from season three of B5 than torment myself with _A Turn of the Screw_. That you, personally, did not find it edifying does not speak to the objective quality of the show, or its appropriateness in this thread. Although I have to admit, if I were trying to cheer up **Eve** , spaceships and aliens would not be my first impulse. But then, that’s what I like about **gobear**. The guy knows more about theology than any three religious leaders or one demi-god of your choice, but when he wants to cheer someone up, what does he go for? The TV show that takes place on a space station. Say what you will about him, the man has his priorities right. > [@](#): > > The qoute offered, if indicative of the depth to which Babylon 5 explores the human condition, did nothing to disabuse me of that belief. Specifically, the juxtaposition of “cease (sic) that one fragile moment” against the lifetime of terror, uncertainty, and confusion. Juvenile stuff, really, and not terribly original. And what does that tell us bout the real world? Try watching the show. It works better in context. If not, you probably shouldn’t be making proclamations about the quality of something you’ve never actually seen. > [@](#): > > I am a huge fan of fiction, actually. One of my favorite English professors, who used to tear up when reading passages by Fitrzgerald, cautioned us that while we may love and be immersed in well written fiction, we should confuse it with real life at our own peril. I’m pretty sure **gobear** is not worried about being attacked by Vorlons in real life. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2005, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-agree-with-caligula-arent-people-awful/285966/31 "2005-01-21T22:51:43Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > I’m pretty sure **gobear** is not worried about being attacked by Vorlons in real life. You forget the Pit battle between **gobear** and **TVAA**!! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2005, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-agree-with-caligula-arent-people-awful/285966/32 "2005-01-21T22:52:31Z")
> [@Eve](#): > > I’m glad my life is more than half-over and I’ll be out of this mess soon. We might not agree on a whole lot, but you captured my sentiments right there exactly. ---
**Author:** ![Charlie\_Tan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/charlie_tan/32/12582_2.png) [@Charlie\_Tan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Charlie_Tan)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2005, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-agree-with-caligula-arent-people-awful/285966/33 "2005-01-21T23:04:32Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > Well once again, with all due respect, I fail to see what lesson about life there is to be gleaned from a TV science fiction show. (Disclaimer–I don’t have television and have never seen the show.) What is there to be gleaned from a SciFi book? Like 1984, Brave New World, Slaughterhouse 5? You not having seen the show is an answer in itself. And BTW, the lesson in B5 is “Faith manages”. ---
**Author:** ![Aguecheek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a9adbd/32.png) [@Aguecheek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aguecheek)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2005, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-agree-with-caligula-arent-people-awful/285966/34 "2005-01-21T23:09:27Z")
> [@Eve](#): > > How do people _do_ such things? My $0.02: We’re animals, same as the rest of the Earth. Our primary responsibility is to ourselves first, our mates and our children second, and everyone else last. If we’ve got the time, money and willingness, we might do something for someone else. Or we might not. As an historian **Eve** , I’m sure you’re aware of the fact that regardless of whatever happens in this world, it will never stop spinning and the majority of humanity will go on with their daily lives. And in 50 years, 100 years, this will be nothing but a blip in the history books And this too, shall pass. I suspect that the best we can do is show others in our own lives, how it doesn’t _have_ to be that way. Through our actions and our deeds, we can show people that in the end, it benefits us to think of others. It’ll be long and it will be hard, and that’s why most will choose not to follow that path. So we’ll forgive them and show their children instead. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Cid\_Viscoso](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/41988e/32.png) [@El\_Cid\_Viscoso](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Cid_Viscoso)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2005, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-agree-with-caligula-arent-people-awful/285966/35 "2005-01-21T23:33:15Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > He suggested I watch the show. Yeah, that’s the funny thing about mollification by Sci-Fi: I’m getting a weird “Comic Book Guy” vibe off of gobear now. You know what I mean? 😃 Oh, wait. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![coffeecat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/coffeecat/32/3405_2.png) [@coffeecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coffeecat)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2005, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-agree-with-caligula-arent-people-awful/285966/36 "2005-01-21T23:49:05Z")
We’re “darkly wise and rudely great,” guys. > [@Contrapuntal](#): > > How about you show me how people deal with sorrow, loss, and the deaths of millions _in the real world_, and then show me how that amounts to more than pissing in the wind. And then tell me how people deal with death of the heart. > > Please. “…despite everything, I still believe in the inner goodness of man.” Anne Frank ---
**Author:** ![Eve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Eve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eve)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2005, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-agree-with-caligula-arent-people-awful/285966/37 "2005-01-22T00:02:26Z")
> [@coffeecat](#): > > “…despite everything, I still believe in the inner goodness of man.” > > Anne Frank . . . and then one of her neighbors ratted her out and the Nazis killed her. Stop beating up on **Gobear**! He’s one of the good guys. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2005, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-agree-with-caligula-arent-people-awful/285966/38 "2005-01-22T00:13:32Z")
> [@Eve](#): > > And has anyone ever read _Pollyanna_? She was run over and crippled by a car at the end! > > Probably by some bastard in an SUV, on his cell phone, not using his turn signals. Good. I hate that chirpy little bitch. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2005, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-agree-with-caligula-arent-people-awful/285966/39 "2005-01-22T00:19:49Z")
> [@coffeecat](#): > > “…despite everything, I still believe in the inner goodness of man.” -Anne Frank > [@Eve](#): > > . . . and then one of her neighbors ratted her out and the Nazis killed her. > [@Guinastasia](#): > > Good. I hate that chirpy little bitch. :eek: ---
**Author:** ![NDP](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ndp/32/55_2.png) [@NDP](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NDP)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2005, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-agree-with-caligula-arent-people-awful/285966/40 "2005-01-22T01:09:03Z")
Miller, for the record, Guinastasia was not referring to Anne Frank but Pollyanna (By the way, I thought Pollyanna was crippled after falling out of a tree rather than being hit by a car. Of course, I could be wrong.) The truly awful thing about the story Eve cited is that, as horrible as the incident was, it still ranks low on the scale of atrocities that people do to one another. Face it, history is almost entirely comprised of people doing nasty things to one another. About 100 years ago, Mark Twain had an interesting theory was to why human beings seem to have an infinite capacity for evil. \* > [@](#): > > One is obliged to concede that in true loftiness of character, Man cannot claim to approach even the meanest of the Higher Animals. It is plain that he is constitutionally incapable of approaching that altitude; that he is constitutionally afflicted with a Defect which must make such approach forever impossible, for it is manifest that this defect is permanent in him, indestructible, ineradicable. > > I find this Defect to be the Moral Sense. He is the only animal that has it. It is the secret of his degradation. It is the quality which enables him to do wrong. It has no other office. It is in capable of performing any other function. It could never hate been intended to perform any other. Without it, man could do no wrong. He would rise at once to the level of the Higher Animals. > > Since the Moral Sense has but the one office, the one capacity (to enable man to do wrong) it is plainly without value to him. It is as valueless to him as is disease. In fact, it manifestly is a disease. Rabies is bad, but it is not so bad as this disease. Rabies enables a man to do a thing, which he could not do when in a healthy state: kill his neighbor with a poisonous bite. One is the better man for having rabies: The Moral Sense enables a man to do wrong. It enables him to do wrong in a thousand ways. Rabies is an innocent disease, compared to the Moral Sense. No one, then, can be the better man for having the Moral Sense. What now, do we find the Primal Curse to have been? Plainly what it was in the beginning: the infliction upon man of the Moral Sense; the ability to distinguish good from evil; and with it, necessarily, the ability to do evil; for there can be no evil act without the presence of consciousness of it in the doer of it .\* Mark Twain, “The Damned Human Race” from **Letters from the Earth** Keep in mind, Twain came to that conclusion without seeing most of the 20th century (he died in 1910) and the horrors that followed. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-agree-with-caligula-arent-people-awful/285966.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-agree-with-caligula-arent-people-awful/285966.md?page=3)