# I agree with Caligula: "Aren't people AWFUL?" **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 21, 2005, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-agree-with-caligula-arent-people-awful/285966 "2005-01-21T20:39:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Eve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Eve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eve)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2005, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-agree-with-caligula-arent-people-awful/285966/41 "2005-01-22T01:18:56Z")
> [@NDP](#): > > Miller, for the record, Guinastasia was not referring to Anne Frank but Pollyanna. I believe **Miller** was making a funny. ---
**Author:** ![voguevixen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b5ac83/32.png) [@voguevixen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/voguevixen)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2005, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-agree-with-caligula-arent-people-awful/285966/42 "2005-01-22T01:29:34Z")
> [@NDP](#): > > Mark Twain, “The Damned Human Race” from **Letters from the Earth** Christ. Can’t we have ONE simple discussion about terrorism, science fiction, and bad drivers without dragging Mark Twain into it? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2005, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-agree-with-caligula-arent-people-awful/285966/43 "2005-01-22T01:41:44Z")
> [@Eve](#): > > I believe **Miller** was making a funny. Well, that really was how I read it at first, before I looked at what was in **Guin** ’s quote box, but I figured out pretty quick what she was actuall talking about. I’m not entirely dense. Only mostly dense. I’m a semi-solid, really. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2005, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-agree-with-caligula-arent-people-awful/285966/44 "2005-01-22T02:14:58Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > None of the above. (OK I’m not a big fan of TV) I simply feel that a TV science fiction show is unequal to the task of consoling someone who is overwhelmed by man’s inhumanity to man. The qoute offered, if indicative of the depth to which Babylon 5 explores the human condition, did nothing to disabuse me of that belief. Specifically, the juxtaposition of “cease (sic) that one fragile moment” against the lifetime of terror, uncertainty, and confusion. Juvenile stuff, really, and not terribly original. And what does that tell us bout the real world? As has been pointed out, if you haven’t seen it, you’re not qualified to judge its quality. And the sniffy tone of “a TV science fiction show” doesn’t speak well to your openmindedness. > [@](#): > > I am a huge fan of fiction, actually. One of my favorite English professors, who used to tear up when reading passages by Fitrzgerald, cautioned us that while we may love and be immersed in well written fiction, we should confuse it with real life at our own peril. Well, certainly the cautionary tales of Don Quixote and Emma Bovary depict the perils of letting their love of fiction addle their minds, and poor Candide let Dr. Pangloss put some unrealistic notions in his head, but I suspect that your professor missed the point that fiction, like any good mythology, inculcates in us a moral worldview from which we derive our notions of virtue, social behavior, and heroism. The stories we tell one another form the common thread of our culture, giving us the values and mores we hold in common. Stephen Sondheim and James Lapine said much the same thing in _Into the Woods_: > [@](#): > > Into the woods–you have to grope, > But that’s the way you learn to cope. > Into the woods to find there’s hope > Of getting through the journey. > Into the woods, each time you go, > There’s more to learn of what you know. > Into the woods, but not too slow– > Into the woods, it’s nearing midnight– > Into the woods to mind the wolf, > To heed the witch, to honor the giant, > To mind, to heed, to find, to think, to teach, to join, > To go to the Festival! Try to look past the literal content of fairy tale characters and see that they are just a metaphor for the real chances we take in life and the vagaries and coincidences that unexpectedly befall us. Life imitates art far more than art imitates life. And if you’ll forgive me for quoting yet another literary work, I offer you the profound words of a thoughtful character from a deeply philosophical and intellectual work: > [@](#): > > Just remember what ol’ Jack Burton does when the earth quakes, the poison arrows fall from the sky, and the pillars of Heaven shake. Yeah, Jack Burton just looks that big old storm right in the eye and says, “Give me your best shot. I can take it.” OK, not all that intellectual, but damned if it isn’t something to live up to. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2005, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-agree-with-caligula-arent-people-awful/285966/45 "2005-01-22T03:59:09Z")
> [@](#): > > people as a whole? Evil, evil fuckers. Eve’s right. People are evil. We all know it, but so many of us aren’t willing to do anything about it. It takes a simple Iraqi suicide driver to show us the way. By driving his car into a wedding he helped reduce the world’s evil by seven people. It’s small but it’s a start. Or did I misunderstand the OP’s intent? ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2005, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-agree-with-caligula-arent-people-awful/285966/46 "2005-01-22T04:21:37Z")
Yes, people are awful. How’s everything working, by the way, Eve? I still have to swing by again to upgrade your Outlook properly, but the weather prevents it. ---
**Author:** ![danceswithcats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9e8a1a/32.png) [@danceswithcats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/danceswithcats)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2005, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-agree-with-caligula-arent-people-awful/285966/47 "2005-01-22T04:35:58Z")
This is all beginning to make sense. With the introduction of the A380, a fully loaded jetliner can now take out \>550 evil sumbitches in one shot. Way more efficient than an Iraqi with a bandaid van. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2005, 5:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-agree-with-caligula-arent-people-awful/285966/48 "2005-01-22T05:31:13Z")
> [@Eve](#): > > I’m an historian, and all I see is one war, massacre, Inqusition, Crusade, dictatorship and invasion after another. I fancy myself an historian, too, and what I have learned is that war, massacre, Inqusition, Crusade, dictatorship and invasion make it into the books because they are much more interesting than farming. Most people aren’t all that bad but they are intensely, overpoweringly boring. Caligula probably didn’t make that quote or do half the things he’s credited with. Suetonius probably made up the lot so he could contrast him with Claudius. ---
**Author:** ![OtakuLoki](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ac8455/32.png) [@OtakuLoki](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OtakuLoki)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2005, 6:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-agree-with-caligula-arent-people-awful/285966/49 "2005-01-22T06:14:44Z")
**Eve** , at the risk of bringing religion into this, one reason I remain a Christian is because all the athiests I’ve known have been Secular Humanists, and to an individual they all believed that people were basically good. :eek: How anyone can look at history and not find that proposition a little hard to swallow has always been beyond me. Not that I think that animals are any better, just less able to exert themselves on less than an individual basis. At any rate, I find solace in Robert W. Service’s suggestion: > [@](#): > > A laugh, lest you may moan Some days it’s harder than others. ---
**Author:** ![gum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bbe5ce/32.png) [@gum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gum)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2005, 6:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-agree-with-caligula-arent-people-awful/285966/50 "2005-01-22T06:27:04Z")
QUOTE]A laugh, lest you may moan [/QUOTE] And: > [@](#): > > Smile and the world smiles with you. Cry and you cry alone. Got to agree with your OP. All the best anyway, **Eve**. ---
**Author:** ![NDP](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ndp/32/55_2.png) [@NDP](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NDP)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2005, 6:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-agree-with-caligula-arent-people-awful/285966/51 "2005-01-22T06:39:44Z")
> [@OtakuLoki](#): > > **Eve** , at the risk of bringing religion into this, one reason I remain a Christian is because all the athiests I’ve known have been Secular Humanists, and to an individual they all believed that people were basically good. :eek: > > How anyone can look at history and not find that proposition a little hard to swallow has always been beyond me. You either don’t know too many atheists or hang out with the wrong ones. As someone who fluctuates between “atheist” and “agnostic” on the scale of belief, I am definitely not a Secular Humanist for the reason you stated. I’m not so far gone that I’ve lost the capacity to be appalled at the horrendous things people do to one another; I’m just no longer surprised. ---
**Author:** ![woodstockbirdybird](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/woodstockbirdybird/32/7905_2.png) [@woodstockbirdybird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/woodstockbirdybird)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2005, 6:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-agree-with-caligula-arent-people-awful/285966/52 "2005-01-22T06:49:43Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > I fancy myself an historian, too, and what I have learned is that war, massacre, Inqusition, Crusade, dictatorship and invasion make it into the books because they are much more interesting than farming. Most people aren’t all that bad but they are intensely, overpoweringly boring. Caligula probably didn’t make that quote or do half the things he’s credited with. Suetonius probably made up the lot so he could contrast him with Claudius. Yeah, I have to agree with this, and I’m pretty fucking cynical. But history’s basically like the news: if it bleeds, it leads. Besides, atrocities are much easier to document than the basically boring, decent lives of most people. I mean, what do you define as evil? How many people do you honestly believe are truly evil, of the rape/murder/inquisition/genocide variety? Surely most people are _stupid_, which is probably just as much of a cause of a lot of inhumanity as “evil”. And I don’t deny that there are evil people out there. But to damn the entire species because you’re upset by some of their acts seems illogical and counter-productive to me. Still, I agree that it’s easy to become disgusted. And I’m also glad my life is (almost) half-over; I just hope the religious types are wrong about an afterlife, because one lifetime is enough for me. Oh, and **gobear** , I _have_ seen _Babylon 5_ and I have to say, I found **contrapuntal** ’s critique of it pretty spot-on. Simplistic platitudes masquerading as intellectual depth; if you want to see how real people deal with horrible wars, I’d suggest reading Elie Wiesel’s _Night_ or _We Wish To Inform You That Tomorrow We Will Be Killed With Our Families: Stories From Rwanda_ (as well as watching the _Frontline_ documentary on the subject), where such uncomplicated optimism in the aftermath of horror is much harder to detect. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2005, 6:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-agree-with-caligula-arent-people-awful/285966/53 "2005-01-22T06:58:53Z")
[Bill Hicks] We’re a virus with shoes. That’s all we are. [/Bill Hicks] ---
**Author:** ![aurelian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f4b2a3/32.png) [@aurelian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aurelian)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2005, 8:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-agree-with-caligula-arent-people-awful/285966/54 "2005-01-22T08:05:33Z")
\ Because sometimes, whether it be through writing, or teaching, or hugging a good friend, you get to express this: “Here’s my answer: Many people need desperately to receive this message: ‘I feel and think much as you do, care about many of the things you care about, although most people don’t care about them. You are not alone.’” (Kurt Vonnegut, _Timequake_, on why writing matters). ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2005, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-agree-with-caligula-arent-people-awful/285966/55 "2005-01-22T14:08:12Z")
[QUOTE=Miller] > [@](#): > > That pretty much depends on the character and interests of the person being consoled, doesn’t it? Well if the answer to my initial query had been “I know Eve and this quote from Babylon 5 is just what she needs” then I would have understood. I have yet to see that explanation offered. I find myself feeling exactly the way she does in the OP, and the suggestion that it is possible to perform one (or more) acts of goodness ([sieze] the moment)and somehow offset a lifetime of horrors seems inadequate to me, especially considering she admitted as much in the OP-“Sure there are a handful of nice people…but people as a whole? Evil, evil fuckers.” > [@](#): > > That you, personally, did not find it edifying does not speak to the objective quality of the show, or its appropriateness in this thread. I only referred to the TV show because it was cited as the source for the quote. I refer to it as a science fiction TV show to point out that it is a work of _fiction_ and subject to that genre’s limitations. Since Science Fiction seems to be some kind of sacred cow around here, allow me to quote Sturgeon’s Law– **95% of Everything is Crap.** Maybe it’s a great show, I don’t know, but the odds are against it. And the sentiment expressed in the quote from the show, which is the crux of this debate, is barely above Hallmark quality. > [@](#): > > Although I have to admit, if I were trying to cheer up **Eve** , spaceships and aliens would not be my first impulse. But then, that’s what I like about **gobear**. The guy knows more about theology than any three religious leaders or one demi-god of your choice, but when he wants to cheer someone up, what does he go for? The TV show that takes place on a space station. Say what you will about him, the man has his priorities right. If anything I have written was construed to be an attack on **gobear** please let me apologize. I have read coumtless of his posts, as well as yours, I might add, and I have almost always found the both of you to be intelligent, informative, well-thought out, and entertaining. In fact, if I see either of your names I usually open the thread ro see what is going on. I will gladly bow out if I have been interpreted as attacking the man rather than his ideas. > [@](#): > > Try watching the show. It works better in context. I would respond to that but he last time I did I was accused of being an elitist interloper. > [@](#): > > If not, you probably shouldn’t be making proclamations about the quality of something you’ve never actually seen I have made no proclomations about the show. I have responded to a specific quote from the show, and have questioned whether a particular genre (science fiction TV show) is of sufficient depth to provide consolation for the OP. I will try to find a friend to tape some episodes to see if I am indeed being closed minded. Are you interested in my reaction? If you have email in your profile I can let you know that way. What channel is it on? ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2005, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-agree-with-caligula-arent-people-awful/285966/56 "2005-01-22T14:15:53Z")
> [@The Gaspode](#): > > What is there to be gleaned from a SciFi book? Like 1984, Brave New World, Slaughterhouse 5? > > You not having seen the show is an answer in itself. > > And BTW, the lesson in B5 is “Faith manages”. I was referring to TV shows, not books, so I am not sure what your point is. From what I remember of the three you mentioned, faith has little to do with the first two, and the only form of faith in the third is a kind of willful sefl-delusion. If you are suggesting that your response to the OP would be “have faith” then I find that even less helpful than the babylon 5 reference. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2005, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-agree-with-caligula-arent-people-awful/285966/57 "2005-01-22T14:35:33Z")
[QUOTE=gobear] > [@](#): > > As has been pointed out, if you haven’t seen it, you’re not qualified to judge its quality. And the sniffy tone of “a TV science fiction show” doesn’t speak well to your openmindedness. I apologize for the sniffiness of my tone; I merely meant it to be descriptive. I have seen many science fiction TV shows. None of them rose above the level of mundane entertainment, which is not to say that I did not enjoy them. As I said to **Miller** above, I will try to watch Babylon 5. Are yopu interested in my reaction? > [@](#): > > Well, certainly the cautionary tales of Don Quixote and Emma Bovary depict the perils of letting their love of fiction addle their minds, and poor > Candide let Dr. Pangloss put some unrealistic notions in his head, but I suspect that your professor missed the point that fiction, like any good mythology, inculcates in us a moral worldview from which we derive our notions of virtue, social behavior, and heroism. I would probably have it the other way around, in that fiction reflects the worldview rather than defines it > [@](#): > > Try to look past the literal content of fairy tale characters and see that they are just a metaphor for the real chances we take in life and the vagaries and coincidences that unexpectedly befall us. I would agree with that. > [@](#): > > Life imitates art far more than art imitates life. I could not disagree more. In fact, I am not even sure what that means. > [@](#): > > And if you’ll forgive me for quoting yet another literary work, I offer you the profound words of a thoughtful character from a deeply philosophical and intellectual work: > > OK, not all that intellectual, but damned if it isn’t something to live up to. Except for where it isn’t, and that’s my point, really. For every human that stands tall and perseveres hundreds, nay thousands are crushed beneath a weight to heavy to bear. If history is written by the winners, then such philosophies are written by the survivors, and offer little solace to those too weak to stand, too blinded by misery to stare the storm in the eye. Please read my response to \*\*Mille\*\*\*\*r \*\* and accept my apology if I seem to be disdainful of you. I find you to be one of the smartest, most thoughtful, and genuinely humane posters around the SDMB. ---
**Author:** ![MaddyStrut](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/dbc845/32.png) [@MaddyStrut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaddyStrut)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2005, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-agree-with-caligula-arent-people-awful/285966/58 "2005-01-22T14:51:26Z")
> [@Merijeek](#): > > Between Malcolm, 24, and Scrubs I’m looking at a whole two hours a week wasted on TV. > > -Joe What? You’re a Scrubs fan and you missed this addition to the thread? > [@](#): > > Lady, people aren’t chocolates. D’you know what they are mostly? Bastards. Bastard-coated bastards with bastard filling. ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2005, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-agree-with-caligula-arent-people-awful/285966/59 "2005-01-22T14:51:52Z")
> [@Eve](#): > > How do people _do_ such things? I’m an historian, and all I see is one war, massacre, Inqusition, Crusade, dictatorship and invasion after another. Sure, there are a handful of nice people—I’m told George Clooney is kind to animals—but people as a whole? Evil, evil fuckers. > > I’m glad my life is more than half-over and I’ll be out of this mess soon. Man, you got that right! Look at that asshole I met at the bus stop the other day. He saw the worried look on my face, listened patiently as I explained the financial troubles I’m having, and gave me $80 out of his pocket right then and then. What a sick, evil fucker! And look at all those bastards sending money to the tsunami victims! Man, those people ought to be rounded up and shot! And what about all those cops and firemen who lost their lives at the World Trade Center just because duty and honor required it of 'em? Makes me sick! But ya wanna know the ones who \* really \* piss me off? It’s all those retired fuckers down at the soup kitchen volunteering their time to feed hungry homeless people. Shit, those monsters are so sick and twisted that sometimes they dig into their own pockets to help desperate people! I could go on and on. You’re right. The sooner this miserable species becomes extinct, the better. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2005, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-agree-with-caligula-arent-people-awful/285966/60 "2005-01-22T14:57:05Z")
Clearly, there can be no important messages in TV shows, or books, or songs. There is no way words and movement can be put together to imply meaning. Plays, clearly, being nothing more than TV without a camera, are utterly useless. And other people’s words, being nothing more than plays without acting, are empty and meaningless. Words, words words. Imagine there’s no heaven. It’s easy if you try. No hell below us, above us only sky. Imagine all the people, living for today… If it helps, the show, Babylon 5, has some really fascinating things to say about faith, using both alien religions as a metaphor, and human religions as a counterpoint. Inspiring things, too, on occasion. The point is, though, what you get out of it. And if what you get out of a show makes you a better person, so much the better. Humans are lazy, humans are selfish. But humans are also capable of being inspired. I was inspired a long time ago. It was after reading a cheap paperback. A funny book. It made me laugh a lot. And there was one sentence in it that kind of grabbed me by the back of the head. “One day, nearly 2,000 years after one man had been nailed to a tree for saying how great it would be to be nice to people for a change.” You know, it’s not a bad thought. How about we try to be nice to people for a change. Even go out of our way to do it. It’s a mitzvah. It worked for me. The thing is, people are capable of being wrong, of being led, of being inspired to do evil, as well. I feel sorry for the person who drove the car. I feel hatred for the man who inspired him to do it. I forgive them both, but if I ever found the man, I would do my very best to make sure he hung by the neck until dead. I don’t forgive them because they deserve it. I forgive them because my hatred makes me less of a person. I have some approximation of hope, that perhaps, after all this horror ends, maybe this kind of hatred will go out of style a bit. It’d be nice. Are people inherently evil? No. I was there after September Eleventh, ferrying doctors back and forth. I was there in the blackout of '03, and I saw people acting as impromptu traffic cops because they could. I see this tsunami relief. People, generally, want to help other people. The thing is, how they help other people is flexed and warped in ways. The driver of the car felt he was helping people when he did it. Sad, but man is a tribal animal, and we have to live with it. All we have to do is hope that things will get better over time. History does suggest it will. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-agree-with-caligula-arent-people-awful/285966.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-agree-with-caligula-arent-people-awful/285966.md?page=4)