# I agree with Caligula: "Aren't people AWFUL?" **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 21, 2005, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-agree-with-caligula-arent-people-awful/285966 "2005-01-21T20:39:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![The\_Mermaid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a183cd/32.png) [@The\_Mermaid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Mermaid)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2005, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-agree-with-caligula-arent-people-awful/285966/61 "2005-01-22T15:03:06Z")
> [@gobear](#): > > Stephen Sondheim and James Lapine said much the same thing in _Into the Woods_: > > Try to look past the literal content of fairy tale characters and see that they are just a metaphor for the real chances we take in life and the vagaries and coincidences that unexpectedly befall us. Life imitates art far more than art imitates life. > And if you’ll forgive me for quoting yet another literary work, I offer you the profound words of a thoughtful character from a deeply philosophical and intellectual work: > > OK, not all that intellectual, but damned if it isn’t something to live up to. Careful the things you say, children will listen Careful the things you do, children will see and learn Children may not obey but they will listen… Careful the tale you tell, That is the spell Children will listen. Ah yes, I loved that musical because it mixed up characters from several fairy tales. Still the message is clear, people learn from example. A very wise man once said “What’s so funny 'bout peace, love and understanding?”. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2005, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-agree-with-caligula-arent-people-awful/285966/62 "2005-01-22T15:15:08Z")
It’s not evil we have to fight. Few people are evil, in their own hearts. They simply don’t see the other side of things, that they’re doing wrong. It’s ignorance. And remember, it’s taking longer than we thought. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2005, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-agree-with-caligula-arent-people-awful/285966/63 "2005-01-22T15:30:44Z")
[QUOTE=E-Sabbath] > [@](#): > > Clearly, there can be no important messages in TV shows, or books, or songs. There is no way words and movement can be put together to imply meaning. Plays, clearly, being nothing more than TV without a camera, are utterly useless. And other people’s words, being nothing more than plays without acting, are empty and meaningless. Words, words words. If this is in response to anything I’ve said I will ask you how arrived at that conclusion. If not, then pardon my intrusion and accept my apology for misunderstanding you. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2005, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-agree-with-caligula-arent-people-awful/285966/64 "2005-01-22T15:40:33Z")
Hyperbole, signifying the logical outcome for scorn of a TV show you have never seen, setting up the logical argument presented later in the post, to wit, people find inspiration in the most unlikely of places. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2005, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-agree-with-caligula-arent-people-awful/285966/65 "2005-01-22T16:52:58Z")
The problem is that when humans are behaving well, it doesn’t make the news. The vast–and by vast I mean overwhelmingly vast, somewhere over 99%–number of people are neither particularly good or evil. They just live their lives, more or less mind their own business, are good to their friends and family, etc. We all suffer from our own pain and sometimes that makes us hard to live with, but it hardly makes us evil. I’ve seen plenty of people do good things, quietly and unobtrusively. As for the hijack, since when can’t we use fiction or pop culture as a springboard for thinking about humanity and morality. I started a long philosophical discussion with a two-sentence quote from Buffy the Vampire Slayer. I suppose **gobear** could have up with a quote of his own. But why should he when there was a perfectly good one from Babylon 5 lying around? I don’t get it. (But then I’m just a poor ole tv watching dumbass.) ---
**Author:** ![Eve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Eve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eve)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2005, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-agree-with-caligula-arent-people-awful/285966/66 "2005-01-22T17:00:18Z")
> [@E-Sabbath](#): > > Yes, people are awful. How’s everything working, by the way, Eve? I still have to swing by again to upgrade your Outlook properly, but the weather prevents it. Right. Try to make a fool out of me by offering to follow up your good deed with _another_ good deed. As for those firemen who lost their lives in the WTC, that wouldn’t have happened if a) bastards hadn’t flown planes into it, and, b) the police and fire depts. in NYC weren’t feuding, unprepared (as they are still) and unable to communicate with one another. The majority of firemen who died did so because they never got the “evacuate” orders . . . Read _102 Minutes_. Infuriating and enlightening book. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2005, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-agree-with-caligula-arent-people-awful/285966/67 "2005-01-22T17:10:36Z")
Eve… hate to disagree, but a lot of them would still have gone in one last time. And it would have been worth it, to them. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2005, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-agree-with-caligula-arent-people-awful/285966/68 "2005-01-22T17:12:44Z")
I hate it when I press submit too soon. A lot of those firemen would have gone back in one last time. If they’d had half an hour to think about it, they still would have gone back in one last time. The thing is, that same impulse that let them do it is the same that let the terrorists fly the planes into the towers. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2005, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-agree-with-caligula-arent-people-awful/285966/69 "2005-01-22T19:31:56Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > Well if the answer to my initial query had been “I know Eve and this quote from Babylon 5 is just what she needs” then I would have understood. I have yet to see that explanation offered. I find myself feeling exactly the way she does in the OP, and the suggestion that it is possible to perform one (or more) acts of goodness ([sieze] the moment)and somehow offset a lifetime of horrors seems inadequate to me, especially considering she admitted as much in the OP-“Sure there are a handful of nice people…but people as a whole? Evil, evil fuckers.” If you don’t agree with the sentiment, that’s one thing. It’s hardly an idea that’s unique to that one show, though. It seems your position is, “Life sucks, and nothing can possibly make it any better.” If that’s the case, well… I guess I’m just glad I’m not you. > [@](#): > > I only referred to the TV show because it was cited as the source for the quote. I refer to it as a science fiction TV show to point out that it is a work of _fiction_ and subject to that genre’s limitations. Since Science Fiction seems to be some kind of sacred cow around here, allow me to quote Sturgeon’s Law– **95% of Everything is Crap.** Maybe it’s a great show, I don’t know, but the odds are against it. And the sentiment expressed in the quote from the show, which is the crux of this debate, is barely above Hallmark quality. I’ve never found fiction, of any stripe, to be at all limited. And I’d say that _Babylon 5_ definetly falls in the 5%. Obviously, these are both subjective opinions. To you, it’s barely above Hallmark quality. To **gobear** (and to myself) it’s pretty deeply affecting. It seemed kind of rude to ignore the spirit in which it was offered, and focus on the perceived quality of the offering. > [@](#): > > If anything I have written was construed to be an attack on **gobear** please let me apologize. I have read coumtless of his posts, as well as yours, I might add, and I have almost always found the both of you to be intelligent, informative, well-thought out, and entertaining. In fact, if I see either of your names I usually open the thread ro see what is going on. I will gladly bow out if I have been interpreted as attacking the man rather than his ideas. It did come across as… I guess “ungracious” is the closest word. He was _trying_ to help, even if he was unsuccesful at it. Sort of like giving a panhandler a quarter, and getting cussed out 'cause it wasn’t fifty cents. Thanks for the kind words, though. I’ve been impressed by some of the stuff you’ve posted, as well. Always nice to have new blood around here. > [@](#): > > I would respond to that but he last time I did I was accused of being an elitist interloper. I have made no proclomations about the show. I have responded to a specific quote from the show, and have questioned whether a particular genre (science fiction TV show) is of sufficient depth to provide consolation for the OP. I will try to find a friend to tape some episodes to see if I am indeed being closed minded. Are you interested in my reaction? If you have email in your profile I can let you know that way. What channel is it on? I have to ask, what genre do you think would be more appropriate? As for B5, it’s not being broadcast anymore, so far as I know. The whole series is available on DVD, though. You can get them through Netflix, if you’re really interested. I should say, in all fairness, that a lot about the show isn’t very good. Especially the first season. Taken as a whole, though, I think it really does add up to more than the sum of its parts. If you decide to give it a shot, I’d recommend starting a Cafe Society thread about. Lots of fans on the board who’d love to take another crack at dissecting it. Lastly, my own quote from a cheesy fantasy TV show that I found to be pretty profound. “If nothing we do matters, than the only thing that matters is what we do.” -Angel ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2005, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-agree-with-caligula-arent-people-awful/285966/70 "2005-01-22T19:54:58Z")
> [@](#): > > Well if the answer to my initial query had been “I know Eve and this quote from Babylon 5 is just what she needs” then I would have understood. Well, I do know **Eve** –the trouble is I don’t have a snappy Elinor Glyn quote, so B5 is the best I can offer. She knows my heart and my intentions. ---
**Author:** ![tnetennba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tnetennba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tnetennba)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2005, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-agree-with-caligula-arent-people-awful/285966/71 "2005-01-22T20:24:05Z")
The quotes weren’t bad (I like the second one), but I have to say, I laughed mightily at the idea of someone saying, “here’s a quote from Babylon 5 that’ll make you feel better.” Good stuff, good stuff. Next time I’m blue, I hope somone is there with a line from Angel and an ice-cold Martini. ---
**Author:** ![Eve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Eve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eve)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2005, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-agree-with-caligula-arent-people-awful/285966/72 "2005-01-22T20:25:06Z")
> [@E-Sabbath](#): > > Eve… hate to disagree, but a lot of them would still have gone in one last time. And it would have been worth it, to them. I don’t disagree that they had the best of intentions, but by the time the North Tower collapsed, everyone who could be evacuated was long evacuated, and scores of firemen were _resting_ in the Sky Lobby, because no one told them the South Tower had collapsed and to get the fuck out of there. The NYPD and the FDNY had (and have!) no way of communicating with one another, and a more-then century-old feud which makes it unlikely they ever will have interdepartmental communications. ---
**Author:** ![Lux\_Fiat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/bc79bd/32.png) [@Lux\_Fiat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lux_Fiat)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2005, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-agree-with-caligula-arent-people-awful/285966/73 "2005-01-22T21:52:13Z")
> [@Eve](#): > > I don’t disagree that they had the best of intentions, but by the time the North Tower collapsed, everyone who could be evacuated was long evacuated, and scores of firemen were _resting_ in the Sky Lobby, because no one told them the South Tower had collapsed and to get the fuck out of there. The NYPD and the FDNY had (and have!) no way of communicating with one another, and a more-then century-old feud which makes it unlikely they ever will have interdepartmental communications. I actually think this highlights the wisdom of never ascribing to malevolence what can be explained by incompetence. I think I agree with **woodstockbirdybird** : people aren’t evil so much as stupid. We’re chimps. We’re chimps who’ve been to the moon and produced sublime art, but most of the time we’re just chimps. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2005, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-agree-with-caligula-arent-people-awful/285966/74 "2005-01-22T22:30:14Z")
> [@Miller\[QUOTE](#): > > If you don’t agree with the sentiment, that’s one thing. It’s hardly an idea that’s unique to that one show, though. It seems your position is, “Life sucks, and nothing can possibly make it any better.” No, my position is “Life sucks, and exhortations to ‘buck up’, or stop and smell the roses’, or ‘light a candle against the darkness’ do little to make it better.” > [@](#): > > If that’s the case, well… I guess I’m just glad I’m not you. I think that is something we can agree on. > [@](#): > > I’ve never found fiction, of any stripe, to be at all limited. At the risk of sounding stupid, it can’t cure cancer, it can’t bring back the dead, it can’t ease the pain of a torture victim, it can’t put food in the belly of a malnourished child, it can’t restore the face of a woman mutilated by her husband… It is what it is. Imagination processed through experience by effort and inspiration. Does it have influence in the real world? Certainly. Is it sufficient to provide solace to one suffering the loss of hope, the death of the heart? Maybe. In this case, I think not. > [@](#): > > I have to ask, what genre do you think would be more appropriate? I’ll have to think about it. My lack of a ready answer hardly invalidates my point, however. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2005, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-agree-with-caligula-arent-people-awful/285966/75 "2005-01-22T22:33:00Z")
> [@gobear](#): > > Well, I do know **Eve** –the trouble is I don’t have a snappy Elinor Glyn quote, so B5 is the best I can offer. She knows my heart and my intentions. Please accept my apologies, then. I did not mean to intervene between you and **Eve**. I will bow out now so as not to further muddy the waters. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2005, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-agree-with-caligula-arent-people-awful/285966/76 "2005-01-22T23:04:04Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > No, my position is “Life sucks, and exhortations to ‘buck up’, or stop and smell the roses’, or ‘light a candle against the darkness’ do little to make it better.” My position is “Life sucks. Exhortations are the only thing that will ever make it better.” While we are here on earth, barring illumination or revelation from above, the only thing that we have are ourselves and those around us. We all depend on the kindness of strangers, one way or another, in our daily lives, from trusting people to obey the traffic lights, to being reasonably assured the man in the next cubicle will not shoot us when we ask him to revise the cover sheet for the TPS reports. Bad things happen. But worse things could happen every day, and generally, they don’t. We live, from day to day, in a sea of minor blessings of things not going wrong. This doesn’t say life doesn’t suck. A lot of times it does. But when it does, you have to realize that sucking is just part of life, and the minor blessings are still there. And so are the minor beauties. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2005, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-agree-with-caligula-arent-people-awful/285966/77 "2005-01-23T01:09:24Z")
> [@E-Sabbath](#): > > We live, from day to day, in a sea of minor blessings of things not going wrong. This doesn’t say life doesn’t suck. A lot of times it does. But when it does, you have to realize that sucking is just part of life, and the minor blessings are still there. And so are the minor beauties. What do you mean by “we”? The hundred thousand Iraquis killed in the War against Terror? The thousands and thousands murdered and displaced in the Sudan? The victims of female circumcision in Africa? I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. “Feel good” philosophies are written by the survivors. Most of what we deem “good” is merely a response to evil. The OP was not complaining about some paltry thing going wrong in her life. She was bemoaning the state of the world and the capacity that humans have for brutalizing their fellow humans. What is wrong with human society goes so far beyond “sucking” as to render the term useless. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2005, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-agree-with-caligula-arent-people-awful/285966/78 "2005-01-23T01:23:11Z")
Yes. Each and every one of us, for as long as we live. For example, there is always a miniscule chance that you will spontaneously ignite. As long as you live, there’s hope. When you’re dead, well, that’s another matter, but as long as you live, you can pursue happiness. You may never catch it, but the quest has meaning in and of itself. ---
**Author:** ![Eve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Eve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eve)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2005, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-agree-with-caligula-arent-people-awful/285966/79 "2005-01-23T02:33:36Z")
> [@E-Sabbath](#): > > . . . there is always a miniscule chance that you will spontaneously ignite. Unfortunately, in much of the world, there’s always been a much better chance that some _else_ will spontaneously ignite you . . . ---
**Author:** ![Eve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Eve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eve)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2005, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-agree-with-caligula-arent-people-awful/285966/80 "2005-01-23T02:38:00Z")
By the way, my thread title comes from the British miniseries _I, Claudius_ (known to my friends and I alternately as _I, Clavdivs_ and _I, Clamdip_). At one point, John Hurt, as the high-camp Caligula, murders his wife (and sister, same person) and their child, then frames his best friend. As the friend is being dragged away, protesting his innocence, John Hurt turns to a guard and says, deadpan, “Aren’t people _awful?_” I love that series. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-agree-with-caligula-arent-people-awful/285966.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-agree-with-caligula-arent-people-awful/285966.md?page=5)