# I agree with Caligula: "Aren't people AWFUL?" **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 21, 2005, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-agree-with-caligula-arent-people-awful/285966 "2005-01-21T20:39:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2005, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-agree-with-caligula-arent-people-awful/285966/81 "2005-01-23T03:05:16Z")
Anyhow, my point is, such as it is, there are fairly few people who are actually evil. Many are misguided, and even more don’t think. I don’t think suicide bombers are evil. Foolish, hoodwinked, but not evil. The people who convince them that being a suicide bomber is a good thing? They’re evil. Those are the people we must fight. ---
**Author:** ![eleanorigby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2005, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-agree-with-caligula-arent-people-awful/285966/82 "2005-01-23T03:26:39Z")
Unneccessary aside: > [@](#): > > Strange, though, I have no idea which Dopers… are members of the Freemasons. I do. 😃 sorry, couldn’t resist. People suck. The mountains of ignorance, entitlement, stupidity and hopelessness I see daily at work is driving me slowly crazy. Never doubt the depth of ignorance when it comes to something ultimately personal–your _health_ . Denial is a horrible thing, too. IMO, denial does more damage than outright violence to most folks. still, there are bright spots: a baby’s laugh, the sun thru trees, kids running thru the park, the laugh lines on an old lady’s face, puppies, waterfalls and butterflies…ok, time to stop the sappy shit! I’m with **Eve** --having reached “middle age”, I am glad I won’t be here for the demise of Earth and it’s animals… ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2005, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-agree-with-caligula-arent-people-awful/285966/83 "2005-01-23T04:40:29Z")
> [@](#): > > I love that series. One of my favorite scenes was when Claudius recovers from a serious illness and sees one of his syncophants. He asks the guy if it’s true that while he was ill, the guy prayed to Jupiter to take him instead of Claudius. The guy is obviously pleased that Caludius heard this story and says yes, expecting some kind of reward for his shameless sucking up. Claudius instead dryly points out he recovered so the prayer must have been answered and asks the guy when he plans on fulfilling his end of the deal. ---
**Author:** ![pokey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ebca7d/32.png) [@pokey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pokey)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2005, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-agree-with-caligula-arent-people-awful/285966/84 "2005-01-23T04:50:13Z")
Every time I see this thread I think about Caligula biting his sister on the baby and then I start laughing. And then I hear the galloping in my head and I stop. ---
**Author:** ![Slithy\_Tove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slithy_tove/32/18248_2.png) [@Slithy\_Tove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slithy_Tove)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2005, 7:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-agree-with-caligula-arent-people-awful/285966/85 "2005-01-23T07:25:42Z")
I’m probably not the only one whose noticed the same name “Livia” in both _I Claudius_ and _The Sopranos_. Anyway, I suppose it’s from having been invested by our creator with that inalienable right to the pursuit of happiness. Unfortuantely, a respect for the happiness of others isn’t nearly as hard-wired into our systems. _The golf links lie so near the mill That almost every day The laboring children can look out And see the men at play._ ---
**Author:** ![Charlie\_Tan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/charlie_tan/32/12582_2.png) [@Charlie\_Tan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Charlie_Tan)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2005, 11:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-agree-with-caligula-arent-people-awful/285966/86 "2005-01-23T11:30:55Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > I was referring to TV shows, not books, so I am not sure what your point is. From what I remember of the three you mentioned, faith has little to do with the first two, and the only form of faith in the third is a kind of willful sefl-delusion. If you are suggesting that your response to the OP would be “have faith” then I find that even less helpful than the babylon 5 reference. I read your post as a snarky, albeit polite, slam on SciFi TV. So I wanted to check if it’s SciFi that’s bad or TV. I’d assume it was TV, but I wanted to check. And I said that B5 is about “faith manages” not that the other books have anything to do with that. You’re coming across as someone in a lofty ivory tower and if you like it up there, in the thin air, that’s fine by me. You are, however, making somewhat a fool of yourself when you’re looking down on popular culture, being referenced by other Dopers. Chances are, they know more about artsy stuff than you do, and have expanded their preferences to popular culture, which can - and this is the amazing stuff - sometimes be more profound than so called high culture. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2005, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-agree-with-caligula-arent-people-awful/285966/87 "2005-01-23T17:34:59Z")
> [@The Gaspode](#): > > I read your post as a snarky, albeit polite, slam on SciFi TV. So I wanted to check if it’s SciFi that’s bad or TV. I’d assume it was TV, but I wanted to check. > > And I said that B5 is about “faith manages” not that the other books have anything to do with that. > > You’re coming across as someone in a lofty ivory tower and if you like it up there, in the thin air, that’s fine by me. You are, however, making somewhat a fool of yourself when you’re looking down on popular culture, being referenced by other Dopers. Chances are, they know more about artsy stuff than you do, and have expanded their preferences to popular culture, which can - and this is the amazing stuff - sometimes be more profound than so called high culture. I think you’ve taken a button and sewn a vest on it, frankly. I hardly think anything I’ve said can be construed as “looking down on popular culture.” I expresed doubts about the usefulness of one particular aspect of popular culture in one particular situation, but that is a far from cry condemning all of it. I agree that the chances are very good that most people around here know more about artsy stuff than I do, as well as just about any other subject you care to mention. It may well be that popular culture is sometimes more profound than so called high culture. I saw no evidence of that in the quote from Babylon 5. **gobear** has told me that he intended it to be a personal reference to Eve that he knew would have meaning for her. I have apologized to him and to **Miller** for disparaging what to them is an important show and have offered to watch it and tell them what I think of it. What more do you want me to do? My ivory tower is a 900 square foot house in a neighborhood that is slowly being rehabilatated from crack alley. I am a self-employed carpenter and artist who stopped watching TV a couple of years ago because I could no longer afford it. I really haven’t missed it, but I don’t think less of people who do watch TV. What I see of television in other people’s houses, waiting rooms, restaurants and the like is pretty mundane, but if you find it profound I really cannot quibble with you. I will try to make my point one more time and hope I can be clear about it. I was feeling the same angst I saw expressed by the OP. The quote from Babylon seemed inadequate to me. Even though this is a public message board with more than 40,000 subscribers, it seems I was out of line to question what was intended to be a private message. I have apologized to those I have offended. I hope they will be accepted as sincere apologies, for they were. That is all I have to say. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2005, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-agree-with-caligula-arent-people-awful/285966/88 "2005-01-23T17:50:42Z")
> [@](#): > > gobear has told me that he intended it to be a personal reference to Eve that he knew would have meaning for her. I have apologized to him and to Miller for disparaging what to them is an important show and have offered to watch it and tell them what I think of it. What more do you want me to do A point of accuracy–i know **Eve** off the board and she knows that I have good intentions, but AFAIK she has never watched the show and it has no special meaning for her. The words, not the source, was what I hoped to offer. Quoting a silent film or an obscure early-20th novel would have more meaning for her. > [@](#): > > What I see of television in other people’s houses, waiting rooms, restaurants and the like is pretty mundane, but if you find it profound I really cannot quibble with you. Perhaps you didn’t intend it, but that comes off as amazingly condescending, and I know from condescension. ---
**Author:** ![Darwins\_Finch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darwins_finch/32/20304_2.png) [@Darwins\_Finch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darwins_Finch)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2005, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-agree-with-caligula-arent-people-awful/285966/89 "2005-01-23T22:23:51Z")
Not that this is likely to be useful this late to the party, but I thought I’d throw out some of my own favorite quotes: > [@](#): > > Nothing is more unfamiliar or uncongenial to the human mind than thinking correctly about probablities. Many of us have the impression that daily life is an unending series of unpleasantnesses – that 50 percent or more of human encounters are stressful or aggressive. But think about it seriously for a moment. Such levels of nastiness cannot possibly be sustained. Society would devolve to anarchy in an insatnt if half our overtures to another human being were met with a punch in the nose. > > No, nearly every encounter with another person is at least neutral and usually pleasant enough.[…] > > Why, then, do most of us have the impression that people are so aggressive, and intrinsically so? The answer, I think, lies in the asymmetry of effects – the truly tragic side of human existence. Unfortunately, one incident of violence can undo ten thousand acts of kindness, and we easily forget the predominance of kindness over aggression by confusing effect with frequency. > > […] > > The real tragedy of human existence is not that we are nasty by nature, but that a cruel structural asymmetry grants to rare events of meanness such power to shape our history. –S. J. Gould, _Ten Thousand Acts of Kindness_ I am as pessimistic about human nature as they come, but even I must admit that the perception of intrinsic “evilness” in humans is just that: a perception, based more on effect than frequency. ---
**Author:** ![OtakuLoki](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ac8455/32.png) [@OtakuLoki](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OtakuLoki)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2005, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-agree-with-caligula-arent-people-awful/285966/90 "2005-01-23T22:51:19Z")
> [@Darwin's Finch](#): > > I am as pessimistic about human nature as they come, but even I must admit that the perception of intrinsic “evilness” in humans is just that: a perception, based more on effect than frequency. The problem is, where do you put the far more frequent acts of neutrality that ennable evil? Does the person who turns up the radio to keep from hearing the fight in the apartment above the own any responsibility to the victim if that fight escalates to violence? Is it unfair to label the 911 operator who just once decides on his or her own that the call from the excited teen on the other end was a prank as having done something evil? How much blame is there for anyone who passed Richard Thompson and Jon Venables without asking if there was anything they could do to help the young boy in distress, as they took James Bulger on his last walk? I can’t say that I have answers, really. Certainly the moral impulse is very common. But I don’t know whether it’s at the root of human nature, or not. ---
**Author:** ![Darwins\_Finch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darwins_finch/32/20304_2.png) [@Darwins\_Finch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darwins_Finch)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2005, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-agree-with-caligula-arent-people-awful/285966/91 "2005-01-24T01:48:55Z")
> [@OtakuLoki](#): > > Does the person who turns up the radio to keep from hearing the fight in the apartment above the own any responsibility to the victim if that fight escalates to violence? Is it unfair to label the 911 operator who just once decides on his or her own that the call from the excited teen on the other end was a prank as having done something evil? How much blame is there for anyone who passed Richard Thompson and Jon Venables without asking if there was anything they could do to help the young boy in distress, as they took James Bulger on his last walk? This isn’t a question of morality or responsibility, it’s a question of frequency. Yes, some people do stupid, selfish, and possibly even evil things. But for every person who turns up his radio to avoid listening to the upstairs neighbors, there is at least one other person donating money to charity, or rescuing a kitten from a tree for a little girl, or some other act of benevolence. For every asshole you meet on the street, you encounter many more that are merely unobtrusive, and some that are even downright friendly. It’s just that the assholes of the world stand out moreso (and get far more press) than does everyone else. ---
**Author:** ![pravnik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8edcca/32.png) [@pravnik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pravnik)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2005, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-agree-with-caligula-arent-people-awful/285966/92 "2005-01-24T02:52:25Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > No, my position is “Life sucks, and exhortations to ‘buck up’, or stop and smell the roses’, or ‘light a candle against the darkness’ do little to make it better.” “Uh-oh! Sounds like _somebody’s_ got a case of the _Mondays!_” - Office Space ---
**Author:** ![PastAllReason](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f07891/32.png) [@PastAllReason](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastAllReason)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2005, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-agree-with-caligula-arent-people-awful/285966/93 "2005-01-24T03:29:19Z")
> [@E-Sabbath](#): > > Humans are lazy, humans are selfish. But humans are also capable of being inspired. I was inspired a long time ago. It was after reading a cheap paperback. A funny book. It made me laugh a lot. And there was one sentence in it that kind of grabbed me by the back of the head. “One day, nearly 2,000 years after one man had been nailed to a tree for saying how great it would be to be nice to people for a change.” You know, it’s not a bad thought. How about we try to be nice to people for a change. Even go out of our way to do it. It’s a mitzvah. It worked for me. Well that wasn’t just any cheap paperback; it was a cheap paperback that provided the answer to life, the universe and everything. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Satyagrahi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f475e1/32.png) [@Satyagrahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Satyagrahi)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2005, 5:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-agree-with-caligula-arent-people-awful/285966/94 "2005-01-24T05:42:06Z")
Let me take yet another minority position: People are not evil. No individual is evil. Period. People are, however, frightened… Everyone has fears: fear of not getting enough to eat, fear of being physically injured, fear of not being liked, fear of being ostracized, fear of sexual inadequacy, etc. Everyone has fears of one kind or another. It is each person’s response to these fears within that sometimes prompt him or her to act in such a way that evil is accomplished. The actions can certainly be evil and organizations demanding some sort of regimentation are usually evil…but individual persons are not. They are merely unhappy, insecure, _frightened_ persons doing what they think is best. And that goes for Hitler as well as the guy down the block driving an SUV. I would recommend Aung San Suu Kyi’s collection of essays Freedom From Fear…except that she is not the most riveting of writers in English. A pity. Her speeches are apparently more moving in Burmese. Debate, anyone? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Sleel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/73ab20/32.png) [@Sleel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sleel)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2005, 7:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-agree-with-caligula-arent-people-awful/285966/95 "2005-01-24T07:06:56Z")
“When you think that the Universe just doesn’t give a fuck, don’t complain – it’s being as friendly as it ever gets.” - Walter Slovotsky ---
**Author:** ![Paladud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Paladud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paladud)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2005, 7:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-agree-with-caligula-arent-people-awful/285966/96 "2005-01-24T07:51:00Z")
“Without hope, man is but an animal.” -From Clavell’s _King Rat_, probably quoting something else still. ---
**Author:** ![gum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bbe5ce/32.png) [@gum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gum)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2005, 8:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-agree-with-caligula-arent-people-awful/285966/97 "2005-01-24T08:22:14Z")
The good people sleep much better at night than the bad people. Of course, the bad people enjoy the waking hours much more. [Woody Allen] ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2005, 11:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-agree-with-caligula-arent-people-awful/285966/98 "2005-01-24T11:12:25Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > Well once again, with all due respect, I fail to see what lesson about life there is to be gleaned from a TV science fiction show. (Disclaimer–I don’t have television and have never seen the show.) I am reminded of a (probably apocryphal) remark from William James to his brother Henry when the latter complained about writer’s block. To wit: “Writer’s block? You\* make that stuff up\*. Every thing I write is _carved from the living rock of truth_.” > > How about you show me how people deal with sorrow, loss, and the deaths of millions _in the real world_, and then show me how that amounts to more than pissing in the wind. And then tell me how people deal with death of the heart. > > Please. Well, so much for art of any sort then. :rolleyes: Here’s a clue - real issues can be dramatised in any format so long as the people and their motivations are real. B5 is both great sci-fi and great drama. Your attitude is unbelievably, shockingly, narrow. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2005, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-agree-with-caligula-arent-people-awful/285966/99 "2005-01-24T12:52:35Z")
> [@gobear](#): > > Perhaps you didn’t intend it, but that comes off as amazingly condescending, and I know from condescension. People here in the Pit sure can get their feathers ruffled easily. You’d think it was a tea party for goodeness sake. The simple fact of the matter is that I find television to be for the most part a great wasteland and today’s “opiate for the masses.” Apparently you don’t. Can we not have different opinions about it? I daresay for every great show you name I could name twenty that are banal, idiotic, pandering pieces of crap; and that to me is a piss poor batting average. Are we only to praise, and never criticize negatively? Why does my opinion matter so much? I never intended this to be a critique of TV. The only reason I mentioned it is because you mentioned it. To me, the idea of “seizing the moment” as a solace for the world’s ills is of little help. Obviously you feel diffrerently. I have apologized to for any insult, made reference to said apology several times, and you are yet to acknowledge it. I have offered to watch the show in question and was told by **Miller** that there is “a lot about the show that isn’t good.” If I were to write a poem about which you found “a lot that isn’t good,” would you praise it or pan it? I have made several statements that refute any claim that I might have to a feeling of superiority, but apparently being critical of TV is some kind of hot button issue that , like the Shadow, “clouds men’s minds.” So, for the record, I do not condescend because I do not feel in a position to condescend. There are some things that I think are bad that other people think are good. The reverse is also true. I sincerely apologize to anyone who was offended by my dismissal of TV as a medium, although to date no one has come up with a defense of TV more compelling than “Well, I guess we can’t have any art at all then, now can we.” ---
**Author:** ![js\_africanus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/87869e/32.png) [@js\_africanus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/js_africanus)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2005, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-agree-with-caligula-arent-people-awful/285966/100 "2005-01-24T14:06:08Z")
> [@Eve](#): > > How do people **do** such things? Some people just want to get involved in community projects. If it helps, _The Science of Good & Evil_ by Shermer may help to soothe your shattered nerves. Admittedly, the “Science” part of the title is overstating it just a tad and he is obsessed with fuzzy logic—he’s putting the cart before the horse—but it is an interesting secular inquiry into morality (that would be a better title: _A Secular Inquiry into Morality_) that sheds light on humanity. If that’s too ambitious, I will note that in his _Discourses_, Machiavelli (sp?) argues that no one is all good or all evil—and that is quite often one’s downfall. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-agree-with-caligula-arent-people-awful/285966.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-agree-with-caligula-arent-people-awful/285966.md?page=6)