# I agree with Caligula: "Aren't people AWFUL?" **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 21, 2005, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-agree-with-caligula-arent-people-awful/285966 "2005-01-21T20:39:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![eleanorigby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2005, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-agree-with-caligula-arent-people-awful/285966/101 "2005-01-24T14:08:53Z")
Most TV sucks. It’s boring and always plays to the lowest common denominator–IMO, it has gotten worse in the past 5 years or so. Every now and again, TV gets it right–the definition of “right” differs greatly from person to person. MASH was good. A Bill Moyers series is always good. Britcom imports are the best, b/c they value themselves at the right level (ie they don’t take themselves too seriously), I can’t think of any current shows, because I am not familiar with them. Maybe some cooking shows. I have 2 TV’s and almost never watch them. I do watch the Daily Show, when I remember. My son watches SpongeBob. My husband enjoys TV, but even he has said that there are so many channels and still nothing is on. There isn’t anything to really draw me to TV–watch this building/car get blown up, watch how many characters get killed, watch ignorant people make fools of themselves–this is something I should embrace? It’ s big yawn. Stick to your guns, **Contrapuntal** –you are not alone. If beat poetry didn’t appeal to **gobear** , would that make him a cultural illiterate? I don’t like rap or hip hop–does that make me a music snob? I think B5 is shallow and superficial-then again, I know people who think that great Truth is to be found in Star Trek–who am I to say different? My point is: so what if one poster finds meaning in some aspect of pop culture, and another doesn’t? Who cares? Take your meaning where you find it, and let others do the same. Oh, yeah–nobody asked me! Carry on. ---
**Author:** ![tnetennba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tnetennba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tnetennba)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2005, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-agree-with-caligula-arent-people-awful/285966/102 "2005-01-24T14:27:50Z")
You can say that someone sucks cum out of a goat’s ass, here, but you can’t tell them their favorite band or TV show sucks… even… perhaps especially… if it does suck. It’s interesting. ---
**Author:** ![Eve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Eve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eve)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2005, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-agree-with-caligula-arent-people-awful/285966/103 "2005-01-24T16:12:26Z")
> [@js\_africanus](#): > > If that’s too ambitious, I will note that in his _Discourses_, Machiavelli (sp?) argues that no one is all good or all evil—and that is quite often one’s downfall. Not only have I read Machiavelli, but I can use his name in a sentence: “I know a tailor who can Machiavelli good pair of pants for fifty bucks.” ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2005, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-agree-with-caligula-arent-people-awful/285966/104 "2005-01-24T16:42:22Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > People here in the Pit sure can get their feathers ruffled easily. You’d think it was a tea party for goodeness sake. The simple fact of the matter is that I find television to be for the most part a great wasteland and today’s “opiate for the masses.” Apparently you don’t. Can we not have different opinions about it? I daresay for every great show you name I could name twenty that are banal, idiotic, pandering pieces of crap; and that to me is a piss poor batting average. Are we only to praise, and never criticize negatively? Why does my opinion matter so much? And you think literature fares any better? Painting? Music? Television is a medium, no better or worse than any other. People use it to make art they think is profound, or entertaining, or simply profitable. Sometimes, they get it right. Most times, they don’t. The only thing that’s unique about TV is that the people who make most of it pipe it directly into your house, free of charge. Which, when you think about it, is pretty neat. Sure, maybe only one show in one hundred is worth watching. So what? Watch the one show, and ignore the rest. All the Dogs Playing Poker in the world does not detract one whit from the Mona Lisa. But, really, I think what has ruffled the feathers around here is not the impression that you are disdainful of television, but that you are disdainful of _all_ art. You ask, > [@](#): > > What do you mean by “we”? The hundred thousand Iraquis killed in the War against Terror? The thousands and thousands murdered and displaced in the Sudan? The victims of female circumcision in Africa? as if no one here has ever experienced their own tragedies, and found solace in art, or religion, or one of the “feel good philosophies” that you so disdain. Art, for the greater mass of people, ranges from the palliative to the redemptive to the transformitive. That you are apparently so unmoved by it is the exception to the human condition, not the base line. ---
**Author:** ![js\_africanus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/87869e/32.png) [@js\_africanus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/js_africanus)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2005, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-agree-with-caligula-arent-people-awful/285966/105 "2005-01-24T17:10:21Z")
> [@Eve](#): > > Not only have I read Machiavelli, but I can use his name in a sentence: “I know a tailor who can Machiavelli good pair of pants for fifty bucks.” Goodness. That’s so bad it’s good. ---
**Author:** ![pravnik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8edcca/32.png) [@pravnik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pravnik)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2005, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-agree-with-caligula-arent-people-awful/285966/106 "2005-01-24T17:27:33Z")
Euripides? Eumenides! ---
**Author:** ![The\_Devil\_s\_Grandmother](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/74df32/32.png) [@The\_Devil\_s\_Grandmother](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Devil_s_Grandmother)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2005, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-agree-with-caligula-arent-people-awful/285966/107 "2005-01-24T20:18:46Z")
> [@LonesomePolecat](#): > > Man, you got that right! Look at that asshole I met at the bus stop the other day. He saw the worried look on my face, listened patiently as I explained the financial troubles I’m having, and gave me $80 out of his pocket right then and then. What a sick, evil fucker! And look at all those bastards sending money to the tsunami victims! Man, those people ought to be rounded up and shot! And what about all those cops and firemen who lost their lives at the World Trade Center just because duty and honor required it of 'em? Makes me sick! But ya wanna know the ones who \* really \* piss me off? It’s all those retired fuckers down at the soup kitchen volunteering their time to feed hungry homeless people. Shit, those monsters are so sick and twisted that sometimes they dig into their own pockets to help desperate people! I could go on and on. You’re right. The sooner this miserable species becomes extinct, the better. The trouble is, while all of these actions are noble and heartwarming, none of them seem to be enough to make up for the one guys who drove a cartful of explosives into the wedding that prompted Eve to start this thread. One person caused seven dead and 16 wounded. Nothing will ever make up for that. This is why the world is so fucking depressing. Evil people are so much more effective at spreading evil than good people are at spreading good. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2005, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-agree-with-caligula-arent-people-awful/285966/108 "2005-01-24T21:12:52Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > Well once again, with all due respect, I fail to see what lesson about life there is to be gleaned from a TV science fiction show. (Disclaimer–I don’t have television and have never seen the show.) I am reminded of a (probably apocryphal) remark from William James to his brother Henry when the latter complained about writer’s block. To wit: “Writer’s block? You\* make that stuff up\*. Every thing I write is _carved from the living rock of truth_.” > > How about you show me how people deal with sorrow, loss, and the deaths of millions _in the real world_, and then show me how that amounts to more than pissing in the wind. And then tell me how people deal with death of the heart. > > Please. Well, if you can’t find inspiration, either through art or real acts of goodness, then you just need to kill yourself. And I’m pretty close to serious about that. If you cannot find joy in humanity (it’s there…maybe not everyone can see it), then what’s the point of enduring all the shit life has to offer? If I could no longer find something worth embracing in my fellow man (and maybe you really _can’t_), I’d be figuring out how to “put out the big light.” ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2005, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-agree-with-caligula-arent-people-awful/285966/109 "2005-01-24T21:14:46Z")
> [@The Devil's Grandmother](#): > > The trouble is, while all of these actions are noble and heartwarming, none of them seem to be enough to make up for the one guys who drove a cartful of explosives into the wedding that prompted Eve to start this thread. One person caused seven dead and 16 wounded. Nothing will ever make up for that. This is why the world is so fucking depressing. Evil people are so much more effective at spreading evil than good people are at spreading good. How many weddings were performed that same day that didn’t get blown up? I think that counts for something. Evil is not the default state for humanity. If it were, acts like these would be too common to be noteworthy. The fact that we’re here, discussing this thing that happened half a planet away from most of us, is testimony to the aberrant nature of the crime. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2005, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-agree-with-caligula-arent-people-awful/285966/110 "2005-01-24T21:50:26Z")
> [@OtakuLoki](#): > > **Eve** , at the risk of bringing religion into this, one reason I remain a Christian is because all the athiests I’ve known have been Secular Humanists, and to an individual they all believed that people were basically good. :eek: People are hard to pigeon-hole. There are good people and bad people. There are people who are a little of both. The world always was and always will be a mixture of all types of people. That’s what makes it interesting (if barbaric at times). I sometimes have a difficult time finding the good in humanity. In fact, one of my favorite sayings is, “I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. People make me sick.” And then someone comes along and does something so selfless, so brave, so kind…and it gives me hope for the human race again. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Devil\_s\_Grandmother](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/74df32/32.png) [@The\_Devil\_s\_Grandmother](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Devil_s_Grandmother)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2005, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-agree-with-caligula-arent-people-awful/285966/111 "2005-01-24T22:05:52Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > … is testimony to the aberrant nature of the crime. I _want_ to agree with you on this, but there’s so many murders and so many people who go missing every year there’s no way all could be reported. And it only takes one evil person to ruin the lives of the G~d-only-knows-how-many people who lost their comfort, stability and happiness when that bomber ran into that wedding and killed seven people. I’m not saying we should give up the good fight or anything, I’m just saying that I don’t think there’s any random act of kindness I can perform that’s going to make up for those seven dead. And that’s _just one example_. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2005, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-agree-with-caligula-arent-people-awful/285966/112 "2005-01-24T22:39:40Z")
> [@The Devil's Grandmother](#): > > I _want_ to agree with you on this, but there’s so many murders and so many people who go missing every year there’s no way all could be reported. Obviously, not every horrible crime committed everywhere makes the international newswire. But the fact that _any_ make the news is entirely due to the fact that these sorts of things are, in reality, incredibly rare. They still happen way too often - once is way too often. But for the vast, vast majority of people, this isn’t their everyday life. It’s something that happens to them once, and then they move on. > [@](#): > > And it only takes one evil person to ruin the lives of the G~d-only-knows-how-many people who lost their comfort, stability and happiness when that bomber ran into that wedding and killed seven people. Aside from the people who actually died, I question how many people’s lives were ruined by this act. Humans have an absolutely astounding ability to cope. Shit happens. People deal with it, and move on. The survivors of this attack are in a lot of pain now, even if they didn’t get physically wounded. And that pain won’t ever go away. But I suspect that most of them, probably all of them, are going to be able to put their lives back together and move on, and eventually find happiness again. People have done just that in the wake of far worse atrocities. In the long run, even the most heinous evil is ultimatly impotent. > [@](#): > > I’m not saying we should give up the good fight or anything, I’m just saying that I don’t think there’s any random act of kindness I can perform that’s going to make up for those seven dead. And that’s _just one example_. Well, next time you’re out and about, and you see a wedding, don’t blow it up. Do this consistently, and you’ve already “made up” for this attack as much as anyone needs to. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2005, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-agree-with-caligula-arent-people-awful/285966/113 "2005-01-25T00:23:56Z")
[QUOTE=Miller] > [@](#): > > But, really, I think what has ruffled the feathers around here is not the impression that you are disdainful of television, but that you are disdainful of _all_ art. Hey **Miller** , back there in post # Oh I don’t know, just take my word for it, I said that I _make_ art. I have even sold some of it. And to tell you the truth, I like what I make and really don’t care if anyone else does. I mean I like it when they do, but my feelings aren’t hurt when they don’t. If you are interested I will send you a piece and you can decide for yourself. At ant rate, if I have come across as disdainful of all art then, I need to reconsider my approach because nothing could be further from the truth. ---
**Author:** ![Eve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Eve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eve)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2005, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-agree-with-caligula-arent-people-awful/285966/114 "2005-01-25T00:45:47Z")
[QUOTE=The Devil’s Grandmother] And it only takes one evil person to ruin the lives of the G~d-only-knows-how-many people who lost their comfort, stability and happiness when that bomber ran into that wedding and killed seven people. QUOTE] And he rammed the wedding in an _ambulance_ packed with explosives, which pushes it past “ten” on the Awfulnes Scale. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2005, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-agree-with-caligula-arent-people-awful/285966/115 "2005-01-25T01:42:14Z")
Well, if this thread has accomplished anything, it’s gotten me to drag out my “I Claudius” DVDs. > [@](#): > > Tiberius: Do you know him personally? > Caligula: No, but I’ve slept with his wife several times And the bit with John Hurt dancing in a theatrical number while dressed in drag as the goddess Venus is priceless. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2005, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-agree-with-caligula-arent-people-awful/285966/116 "2005-01-25T01:55:16Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > Hey **Miller** , back there in post # Oh I don’t know, just take my word for it, I said that I _make_ art. I have even sold some of it. And to tell you the truth, I like what I make and really don’t care if anyone else does. I mean I like it when they do, but my feelings aren’t hurt when they don’t. If you are interested I will send you a piece and you can decide for yourself. At ant rate, if I have come across as disdainful of all art then, I need to reconsider my approach because nothing could be further from the truth. I’d forgotten you said that. Still, it’s not as if you can’t both make art, and be disdainful of it at the same time. I’ve always suspected that Thomas Kinkaide creates his paintings out of a deep-seated hatred for artistic endeavours, for example. If I’ve misread what you’ve said here, though, I do apologize. This has been a sort of ass-backwards way of getting into a debate about art. We should do this again some time in Cafe Society, on a more clearly explicated topic. Anyway, I’d love to see what you do. What mediums do you work in? Is any of your stuff online? ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2005, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-agree-with-caligula-arent-people-awful/285966/117 "2005-01-25T03:14:24Z")
[QUOTE=Miller] > [@](#): > > I’d forgotten you said that. Still, it’s not as if you can’t both make art, and be disdainful of it at the same time. I’ve always suspected that Thomas Kinkaide creates his paintings out of a deep-seated hatred for artistic endeavours, for example. You may have a point there. At any rate I got a chuckle out of it. > [@](#): > > Anyway, I’d love to see what you do. What mediums do you work in? Is any of your stuff online? I generally paint on wood using discarded house paint and hobby paints. I have no formal training. I began painting several years ago as (I think) a form of self therapy. I paint animals and abstracts. The animals (fish, birds, snakes) are imaginary, fantastic, ( as in fantasy, not as in great), with bold primary colors. There is nothing online now but I will see if I can figure out a way to do it. I am a bit of a computer idiot but I think I can come up with something. Thanks for the interest! ---
**Author:** ![OxyMoron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/e9a140/32.png) [@OxyMoron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OxyMoron)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2005, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-agree-with-caligula-arent-people-awful/285966/118 "2005-01-25T03:33:14Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > For every human that stands tall and perseveres hundreds, nay thousands are crushed beneath a weight to heavy to bear. If history is written by the winners, then such philosophies are written by the survivors, and offer little solace to those too weak to stand, too blinded by misery to stare the storm in the eye. D’ye get the point that it’s this sort of prose that makes you sound like a pretentious prat? But I get the sense you don’t mean it, and that counts for a lot. Now, **Eve** , were it Idi Amin you were citing I would reply, “Well, just eat the potatoes.” But you didn’t, you chose a much more ancient despot. As for the underlying point: I would underscore that bad news always outsells good - what is functional bores our brains - we’re attracted to what doesn’t function, what’s brutal and awful and corrupt. The mistake is assuming that the reporting reflects normality. It doesn’t. The funny thing is that despite the injunction that human life is usually nasty, brutish, and short, it is impoverished societies that are often happier. I suspect that’s because their failures are less their own responsibility - when your prosperity depends on the rains coming (or not), a bad harvest is outside your control. But in the modern world, we have mastered out fate, and a bad harvest is because we planted the wrong crop, because we stayed to become a farmer when we screwed around and failed to get a scholarship, because didn’t get the bank its documentation to close the loan when the rates were optimal. Our failures are ours and, to great degree, ours alone. And that hurts. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2005, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-agree-with-caligula-arent-people-awful/285966/119 "2005-01-25T03:43:14Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > Well, if you can’t find inspiration, either through art or real acts of goodness, then you just need to kill yourself. And I’m pretty close to serious about that. If you cannot find joy in humanity (it’s there…maybe not everyone can see it), then what’s the point of enduring all the shit life has to offer? > > If I could no longer find something worth embracing in my fellow man (and maybe you really _can’t_), I’d be figuring out how to “put out the big light.” Well gosh thanks awfully. This whole thing started way back when when I tried to make the point that in my view “real acts” were of more value in easing the pain of modern existence than imaginary ones. I ended up offending a couple of folks that I think are pretty cool and regretting it. I don’t know anything about you, but if you are “pretty close” to suggesting I kill myself than I contend that you are “pretty close” to violating the proscription against wishing death on someone. I may have a very pessimistic outlook ( and for all you know it is completely justified) but I challenge you point out to me where I have indicated that I am unable to find joy in humanity. And you can take your comments about what I should do with my life and cram them sideways up your diseased and rotting bunghole with a nine pound hammer and a double helping of hotsauce, you mealy-mouthed motherfucking wall-eyed jug-headed drooling shit for brains asswipe of a poor excuse for a human anyway. If you are offering yourself as a fellow man worth embracing I predict a rash of pre-emptive prophylactic armectomies anywhere within a five mile radius of your supperating presence just to forestall the possiblity of such a loathsome connection. And your mama wears combat boots. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2005, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-agree-with-caligula-arent-people-awful/285966/120 "2005-01-25T03:55:21Z")
[QUOTE] > [@OxyMoron](#): > > D’ye get the point that it’s this sort of prose that makes you sound like a pretentious prat? But I get the sense you don’t mean it, and that counts for a lot. To be honest I did mean it but now that you put it out there I do sound like a pretentious prat. I do believe that “look on the bright side” philosophies are written by the survivors and have little to offer people who have faced extreme hardships their whole lives. Purple prose does little to advance my cause. Thanks for pointing it out. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-agree-with-caligula-arent-people-awful/285966.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-agree-with-caligula-arent-people-awful/285966.md?page=7)