# I Agree with Everything She Said, and yet, NNNYYYRRRRRAAAAAARRRRRRRGGGHHHH!!!!!!!! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 10, 2010, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-agree-with-everything-she-said-and-yet-nnnyyyrrrrraaaaaarrrrrrrggghhhh/535611 "2010-04-10T03:42:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2010, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-agree-with-everything-she-said-and-yet-nnnyyyrrrrraaaaaarrrrrrrggghhhh/535611/121 "2010-04-13T03:32:53Z")
Okay, I hate to sound obtuse, but again, how is trotting out breast cancer an example of how people only like feminism when it’s about stuff affecting both men and women? Breast cancer dose affect some men but mostly people think of it as a women’s problem. Caring about breast cancer at the expense of other cancers isn’t good but doesn’t it show that people are willing to care about something that’s mostly related to women? ---
**Author:** ![Chessic\_Sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7c8e57/32.png) [@Chessic\_Sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chessic_Sense)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2010, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-agree-with-everything-she-said-and-yet-nnnyyyrrrrraaaaaarrrrrrrggghhhh/535611/122 "2010-04-13T03:37:50Z")
You’ve really got to quit with the rhetorical questions. I can’t tell (and I’m not alone) what you’re trying to say. I can’t tell when the implied answer is yes or no, so I can’t tell you where you’re wrong and why. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2010, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-agree-with-everything-she-said-and-yet-nnnyyyrrrrraaaaaarrrrrrrggghhhh/535611/123 "2010-04-13T03:38:51Z")
> [@Two\_Many\_Cats](#): > > Do you automatically get annoyed if a woman complains that something is unfair to her because of her gender? No. > [@](#): > > Do you immediately respond with skepticism? No. > [@](#): > > Do you look for ways her argument is flawed? No. > [@](#): > > Do you assume that she’s wrong? No. > [@](#): > > Are you waiting to pounce on those tired, feminist lies that you are certain are to follow? “Certain?” > [@](#): > > Do you react this way, before she even finishes what she has to say? No. > [@](#): > > Yes, you know sexism against a person’s gender is wrong. You “know” that. Everybody “knows” that. Well, it’s economically inefficient. In a thoroughly mechanized information-age society, individual physical strength is less important than skills and training. So it’s wrong for a _reason_. > [@](#): > > But deep, deep down, does it upset you to “know” that? No. > [@](#): > > Deep, deep down, do you wish you could believe women are less than men? No. > [@](#): > > Deep, deep down, do you wish women would believe they are less than men, and just accept that? No. > [@](#): > > Do you wish women would just be satisfied with the progress that they have already made? No. Satisfaction with progress ensures that no further progress will be sought or made. I’d be happy if a woman cured cancer for the benefit of womankind, because it’s quite likely to benefit mankind as well, including me. > [@](#): > > Do you wish that they would just shut up? No. > [@](#): > > Do you dislike the anger that they feel at the injustices they face? No. > [@](#): > > More importantly still, do you wish that they would think about the injustices you have to face about your own gender? Not especially. Some women, obviously, pursue legal careers and such with the goal of battling injustice, but I don’t need “they” (i.e. all women) to dwell on it. > [@](#): > > Do you wish that just once they could think about how difficult it is to be a man? I can honestly say I’ve never wasted an idle wish on this. > [@](#): > > I could go on. I said it was complicated. I haven’t even asked you to consider what you think about a man who cries too often or is afraid of too many things, who doesn’t like sports, or is just a little…too much like a woman. > > Only you know the answers to the questions I’ve asked. But please, think carefully about them. And be honest. My honest opinion is that you’re advancing a self-pitying and somewhat incoherent mess of a premise, and my lack of sympathy for it has absolutely nothing to do with my feelings about women; just my feelings about nonsense and stupidity. I have no intention or power or interest in silencing you, though I’ve no doubt you’ll claim, again, that silencing you is my goal. ---
**Author:** ![Chessic\_Sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7c8e57/32.png) [@Chessic\_Sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chessic_Sense)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2010, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-agree-with-everything-she-said-and-yet-nnnyyyrrrrraaaaaarrrrrrrggghhhh/535611/124 "2010-04-13T03:46:05Z")
> [@Two\_Many\_Cats](#): > > Do you automatically get annoyed if a woman complains that something is unfair to her because of her gender? Depends on the topic. Sports? No. School grades? Yes. > [@Two\_Many\_Cats](#): > > Do you immediately respond with skepticism? See above. > [@Two\_Many\_Cats](#): > > Do you look for ways her argument is flawed? Yes. Like every argument ever presented to me about anything. > [@Two\_Many\_Cats](#): > > Do you assume that she’s wrong? No. > [@Two\_Many\_Cats](#): > > Are you waiting to pounce on those tired, feminist lies that you are certain are to follow? Minus the “certain are to follow”, yes. Why would I not pounce on a lie? > [@Two\_Many\_Cats](#): > > Do you react this way, before she even finishes what she has to say? No. > [@Two\_Many\_Cats](#): > > But deep, deep down, does it upset you to “know” that? No. > [@Two\_Many\_Cats](#): > > Deep, deep down, do you wish you could believe women are less than men? No. > [@Two\_Many\_Cats](#): > > Deep, deep down, do you wish women would believe they are less than men, and just accept that? No. > [@Two\_Many\_Cats](#): > > Do you wish women would just be satisfied with the progress that they have already made? No. > [@Two\_Many\_Cats](#): > > Do you wish that they would just shut up? Yes. > [@Two\_Many\_Cats](#): > > Do you dislike the anger that they feel at the injustices they face? Only when those injustices are manufactured for some RO, like, oh I dunno, proposed rape kit laws or the word “chicks”. > [@Two\_Many\_Cats](#): > > More importantly still, do you wish that they would think about the injustices you have to face about your own gender? Yes. > [@Two\_Many\_Cats](#): > > Do you wish that just once they could think about how difficult it is to be a man? Yes. > [@Two\_Many\_Cats](#): > > …what you think about a man who cries too often or is afraid of too many things, If it’s “too often”, then it’s too often, by definition. Duh. > [@Two\_Many\_Cats](#): > > who doesn’t like sports Does anyone really care about this? Or are you just trying to give an example of a feminine lie? Has anyone ever actually heard an adult tease another adult for not liking sports? No. Because that would be retarded, and everyone realizes that. > [@Two\_Many\_Cats](#): > > or is just a little…too much like a woman. Again, if you postulate that it’s “too much”, then it’s “too much” by postulate. What am I supposed to do with that? What exactly are you getting at with these questions? Try posting your ideas in sentences for a change. ---
**Author:** ![Two\_Many\_Cats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8dc957/32.png) [@Two\_Many\_Cats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Two_Many_Cats)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2010, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-agree-with-everything-she-said-and-yet-nnnyyyrrrrraaaaaarrrrrrrggghhhh/535611/125 "2010-04-13T04:27:22Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > Okay, I hate to sound obtuse, but again, how is trotting out breast cancer an example of how people only like feminism when it’s about stuff affecting both men and women? Breast cancer dose affect some men but mostly people think of it as a women’s problem. Caring about breast cancer at the expense of other cancers isn’t good but doesn’t it show that people are willing to care about something that’s mostly related to women? People, both men and women, are willing to care about a specific problem related to women. That’s a good thing. It’s when women feel compelled to compartmentalize their complaints as specific problems to avoid the label of women’s issues, because when they try to discuss women’s issues as a problem of inequality, things swiftly degenerate into scorn and derision over whether or not women are truly equal to men in society. Look, I guess what at bottom is whether women truly are equal to men in this society. Are they? Can people discuss whether women are equal to men in this society without it degenerating into the kind of vituperation that I’ve been attracting throughout this thread? ---
**Author:** ![Two\_Many\_Cats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8dc957/32.png) [@Two\_Many\_Cats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Two_Many_Cats)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2010, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-agree-with-everything-she-said-and-yet-nnnyyyrrrrraaaaaarrrrrrrggghhhh/535611/126 "2010-04-13T04:39:52Z")
> [@Chessic\_Sense](#): > > I can’t tell when the implied answer is yes or no, so I can’t tell you where you’re wrong and why. You see then that you consider me automatically wrong. This is not what you said when you answered my list of questions. My question: Do you assume she is wrong? Your answer: No. You aren’t examining yourself very honestly. ---
**Author:** ![elfkin477](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@elfkin477](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfkin477)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2010, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-agree-with-everything-she-said-and-yet-nnnyyyrrrrraaaaaarrrrrrrggghhhh/535611/127 "2010-04-13T04:48:01Z")
> [@Two\_Many\_Cats](#): > > You see then that you consider me automatically wrong. This is not what you said when you answered my list of questions. Why do you assume that’s because you’re a woman rather than that you’re not very coherent? ---
**Author:** ![Two\_Many\_Cats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8dc957/32.png) [@Two\_Many\_Cats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Two_Many_Cats)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2010, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-agree-with-everything-she-said-and-yet-nnnyyyrrrrraaaaaarrrrrrrggghhhh/535611/128 "2010-04-13T04:51:50Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > My honest opinion is that you’re advancing a self-pitying and somewhat incoherent mess of a premise, and my lack of sympathy for it has absolutely nothing to do with my feelings about women; just my feelings about nonsense and stupidity. I have no intention or power or interest in silencing you, though I’ve no doubt you’ll claim, again, that silencing you is my goal. Very well, I thank you for your honesty. I see you say what I’ve said here is self-pitying nonsense and incoherent stupidity. Tell me what I’ve said that leads you to that conclusion? Are you suggesting that sexism does not exist for either gender? ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2010, 4:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-agree-with-everything-she-said-and-yet-nnnyyyrrrrraaaaaarrrrrrrggghhhh/535611/129 "2010-04-13T04:58:45Z")
> [@Two\_Many\_Cats](#): > > People, both men and women, are willing to care about a specific problem related to women. That’s a good thing. > > It’s when women feel compelled to compartmentalize their complaints as specific problems to avoid the label of women’s issues, because when they try to discuss women’s issues as a problem of inequality, things swiftly degenerate into scorn and derision over whether or not women are truly equal to men in society. > > Look, I guess what at bottom is whether women truly are equal to men in this society. Are they? Can people discuss whether women are equal to men in this society without it degenerating into the kind of vituperation that I’ve been attracting throughout this thread? But how are they avoiding calling it a women’s issue by calling it breast cancer? That’s what it is. And the fact that it’s associated with a pink ribbon makes me think that it is thought of as a women’s issue. ---
**Author:** ![Two\_Many\_Cats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8dc957/32.png) [@Two\_Many\_Cats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Two_Many_Cats)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2010, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-agree-with-everything-she-said-and-yet-nnnyyyrrrrraaaaaarrrrrrrggghhhh/535611/130 "2010-04-13T05:06:41Z")
> [@elfkin477](#): > > Why do you assume that’s because you’re a woman rather than that you’re not very coherent? I didn’t say that was because I’m a woman. **Chessic Sense** said that he could not tell when the implied answers were yes or no, so he could not tell me where I was wrong or why. Why does he assume there were implied answers? I asked for honest answers, which should never be implied. He said because he could not tell what the implied answers were, so he could not tell me where I was wrong or why. Therefore by his own admission, he thinks I am automatically wrong. Which was a direct contradiction of one of the answers he gave to my list of questions. None of this has to do with my being a woman. If anyone has some tips on how to make me more coherent, they are welcome. ---
**Author:** ![Two\_Many\_Cats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8dc957/32.png) [@Two\_Many\_Cats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Two_Many_Cats)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2010, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-agree-with-everything-she-said-and-yet-nnnyyyrrrrraaaaaarrrrrrrggghhhh/535611/131 "2010-04-13T05:24:31Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > But how are they avoiding calling it a women’s issue by calling it breast cancer? That’s what it is. And the fact that it’s associated with a pink ribbon makes me think that it is thought of as a women’s issue. Because breast cancer is a health issue. And everyone is against cancer. So it’s a safe (i.e. non-confrontational) cause. Discussing breast cancer will not devolve into a slugfest like this thread. And because it won’t devolve into a slugfest, maybe something will be actually done about it. Which would be useful. Pink is a symbol of women. Pink in itself is inoffensive. When the main reason you know that this particular issue is a women’s issue is because everyone is wearing pink, well that’s very inoffensive. Certainly it’s less offensive than actually saying that this is a woman’s issue. Because nobody wants to hear that. Why do you suppose some men dislike to wear pink? ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2010, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-agree-with-everything-she-said-and-yet-nnnyyyrrrrraaaaaarrrrrrrggghhhh/535611/132 "2010-04-13T05:36:23Z")
But how else would you go about talking about breast cancer other than as a health issue? I’m just not sure what the alternative that you’re proposing is. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2010, 6:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-agree-with-everything-she-said-and-yet-nnnyyyrrrrraaaaaarrrrrrrggghhhh/535611/133 "2010-04-13T06:00:16Z")
> [@Two\_Many\_Cats](#): > > I see you say what I’ve said here is self-pitying nonsense and incoherent stupidity. That only proves you can read. > [@](#): > > Tell me what I’ve said that leads you to that conclusion? The fact that I can read, too. > [@](#): > > Are you suggesting that sexism does not exist for either gender? I’m saying that at this point, you’ve built such a mountain of incoherence that I wouldn’t trust your word that there _were_ two genders. ---
**Author:** ![Two\_Many\_Cats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8dc957/32.png) [@Two\_Many\_Cats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Two_Many_Cats)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2010, 9:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-agree-with-everything-she-said-and-yet-nnnyyyrrrrraaaaaarrrrrrrggghhhh/535611/134 "2010-04-13T09:35:42Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > But how else would you go about talking about breast cancer other than as a health issue? I’m just not sure what the alternative that you’re proposing is. There is no alternative for talking about breast cancer. What about wanting to talk about women’s issues with inequality? Is there a way to talk about women’s issues with inequality without being derided as being wrong and incoherent and whatever else can be thrown at you? I guess the final question I am asking is, and I’m trying desperately not to be incoherent here so I’m cutting it down to three basic words: Does sexism exist? ---
**Author:** ![MegaBee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f0a364/32.png) [@MegaBee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MegaBee)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2010, 11:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-agree-with-everything-she-said-and-yet-nnnyyyrrrrraaaaaarrrrrrrggghhhh/535611/135 "2010-04-13T11:40:17Z")
**Two Many Cats** , you should just post a link to Feminism 101 and move on. People aren’t reacting well to your discussion style. ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2010, 11:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-agree-with-everything-she-said-and-yet-nnnyyyrrrrraaaaaarrrrrrrggghhhh/535611/136 "2010-04-13T11:59:26Z")
You are seriously incoherent. It’s doesn’t make much sense and is all garbled up. How any of this relates to rape kits escapes me. I have read every word, and whatever you’re trying to say, seems like it was processed through a Sarah Palin translator. Bunches of words, empty platitudes, and almost circular thoughts. And it leaves me with the same, WTF feeling. ---
**Author:** ![Two\_Many\_Cats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8dc957/32.png) [@Two\_Many\_Cats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Two_Many_Cats)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2010, 12:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-agree-with-everything-she-said-and-yet-nnnyyyrrrrraaaaaarrrrrrrggghhhh/535611/137 "2010-04-13T12:00:03Z")
> [@MegaBee](#): > > **Two Many Cats** , you should just post a link to Feminism 101 and move on. People aren’t reacting well to your discussion style. If my discussion style is the problem, please post an example of it. If what I have written is incoherent, please post an example of that. If I’ve written a “mountain of incoherence”, surely some poster can find a succinct example of it by using the quote function? Truly, I want to learn from my mistakes. I want to be clearer to people. I won’t attack you for posting my mistakes. I promise. I might try to make myself clearer. That’s the point. Why aren’t people reacting well to this discussion? Please tell me what the problem is. Also, please tell me, any and all posters; does sexism exist? Don’t attack anyone. Just answer yes or no to this three word question: Does sexism exist? ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2010, 12:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-agree-with-everything-she-said-and-yet-nnnyyyrrrrraaaaaarrrrrrrggghhhh/535611/138 "2010-04-13T12:10:33Z")
> [@Two\_Many\_Cats](#): > > See, this is where the complexity sets in. > > Do you automatically get annoyed if a woman complains that something is unfair to her because of her gender? Do you immediately respond with skepticism? Do you look for ways her argument is flawed? Do you assume that she’s wrong? Are you waiting to pounce on those tired, feminist lies that you are certain are to follow? > > Do you react this way, before she even finishes what she has to say? No to all. I listen politely, think about what she has said, then suggest she get back to the kitchen. ---
**Author:** ![MegaBee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f0a364/32.png) [@MegaBee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MegaBee)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2010, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-agree-with-everything-she-said-and-yet-nnnyyyrrrrraaaaaarrrrrrrggghhhh/535611/139 "2010-04-13T12:50:02Z")
> [@Two\_Many\_Cats](#): > > If my discussion style is the problem, please post an example of it. If what I have written is incoherent, please post an example of that. If I’ve written a “mountain of incoherence”, surely some poster can find a succinct example of it by using the quote function? I’m just seeing the reaction of the other posters. Personally, I get what you’re saying, but I’ve had these discussions before. > [@Two\_Many\_Cats](#): > > Truly, I want to learn from my mistakes. I want to be clearer to people. I won’t attack you for posting my mistakes. I promise. > > I might try to make myself clearer. That’s the point. > > Why aren’t people reacting well to this discussion? Please tell me what the problem is. I’m willing to bet that your use of the Socratic method is contributing to some of the ire. > [@Two\_Many\_Cats](#): > > Also, please tell me, any and all posters; does sexism exist? Don’t attack anyone. > Just answer yes or no to this three word question: > > Does sexism exist? Of course it does, and it hurts everybody. ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2010, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-agree-with-everything-she-said-and-yet-nnnyyyrrrrraaaaaarrrrrrrggghhhh/535611/140 "2010-04-13T13:21:28Z")
> [@](#): > > Does sexism exist? This is where your almost incoherent wordage was all leading up to? Yes sexism exists. The Pope is Catholic and bears shit in the woods. Duh. And yet, the reason all rape kits are not processed is, because it would bankrupt all police departments. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-agree-with-everything-she-said-and-yet-nnnyyyrrrrraaaaaarrrrrrrggghhhh/535611.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-agree-with-everything-she-said-and-yet-nnnyyyrrrrraaaaaarrrrrrrggghhhh/535611.md?page=8)