# I Agree with Everything She Said, and yet, NNNYYYRRRRRAAAAAARRRRRRRGGGHHHH!!!!!!!! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 10, 2010, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-agree-with-everything-she-said-and-yet-nnnyyyrrrrraaaaaarrrrrrrggghhhh/535611 "2010-04-10T03:42:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2010, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-agree-with-everything-she-said-and-yet-nnnyyyrrrrraaaaaarrrrrrrggghhhh/535611/141 "2010-04-13T13:28:11Z")
> [@Two\_Many\_Cats](#): > > If what I have written is incoherent, please post an example of that. > [@Two Many Cats](#): > > NNNYYYRRRRRAAAAAARRRRRRRGGGHHHH!!! There you go. > [@Two Many Cats](#): > > Why aren’t people reacting well to this discussion? Please tell me what the problem is. > > Also, please tell me, any and all posters; does sexism exist? Don’t attack anyone. > Just answer yes or no to this three word question: > > Does sexism exist? See, you’re repetitive. It’s a three-word answer, providing needed symmetry. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2010, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-agree-with-everything-she-said-and-yet-nnnyyyrrrrraaaaaarrrrrrrggghhhh/535611/142 "2010-04-13T13:37:21Z")
> [@Two\_Many\_Cats](#): > > Does sexism exist? Yes, of course. Are things worse than they were 50 years ago? Quite the opposite. Does sexism negatively affect men? Absolutely. Can we all agree on these very basic things? A large part of the problem, however, is interpreting every single aspect of life as an example of how evil men are oppressing poor delicate women. That’s just victim thinking, and it has had a very powerful backlash. In the beginning of the feminist movement, back when we called it women’s lib (and used words like chauvinism and listened to Helen Reddy), it was a noble cause. The idea that women should be afforded all the rights and respect as men was a fantastic and long-needed one. But in the 80s and 90s, things got out of control. For 15 years I lived and worked in a neighborhood that was heavily gay and lesbian, so I experienced a lot of it first hand. Feminism was no longer about celebrating women, but about castrating men. I heard women denouncing anything remotely male, and then emulating the very darkest side of masculine behavior. There was a lot of self loathing in those days. It was no longer OK for men to be masculine, and no longer OK for women to be feminine. Femininity was no longer about equality, it was about hostility. For god’s sake, there was even an effort to change the word history to herstory. It was crazy! Optimistically, I think we’re returning to a bit more sanity these days. More and more people are coming to realize that while both sexes should enjoy the same rights and respect, we are not identical. Men and women are wired differently. And instead of using those differences to oppress, we can use them to build bridges of understanding. We’re coming to realize that it’s OK for men to be men and for women to be women, with all of the strengths that that implies. Thank god. It’s about time. ---
**Author:** ![Two\_Many\_Cats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8dc957/32.png) [@Two\_Many\_Cats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Two_Many_Cats)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2010, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-agree-with-everything-she-said-and-yet-nnnyyyrrrrraaaaaarrrrrrrggghhhh/535611/143 "2010-04-13T13:40:45Z")
> [@MegaBee](#): > > I’m just seeing the reaction of the other posters. Personally, I get what you’re saying, but I’ve had these discussions before. > I’m willing to bet that your use of the Socratic method is contributing to some of the ire. > Of course it does, and it hurts everybody. I’m sorry, but I’ve never studied Socrates. What is the Socratic method? Why is it so provocative? ---
**Author:** ![Two\_Many\_Cats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8dc957/32.png) [@Two\_Many\_Cats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Two_Many_Cats)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2010, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-agree-with-everything-she-said-and-yet-nnnyyyrrrrraaaaaarrrrrrrggghhhh/535611/144 "2010-04-13T13:48:40Z")
> [@tdn](#): > > Yes, of course. Are things worse than they were 50 years ago? Quite the opposite. Does sexism negatively affect men? Absolutely. > > Can we all agree on these very basic things? > > A large part of the problem, however, is interpreting every single aspect of life as an example of how evil men are oppressing poor delicate women. That’s just victim thinking, and it has had a very powerful backlash. > > In the beginning of the feminist movement, back when we called it women’s lib (and used words like chauvinism and listened to Helen Reddy), it was a noble cause. The idea that women should be afforded all the rights and respect as men was a fantastic and long-needed one. > > But in the 80s and 90s, things got out of control. For 15 years I lived and worked in a neighborhood that was heavily gay and lesbian, so I experienced a lot of it first hand. Feminism was no longer about celebrating women, but about castrating men. I heard women denouncing anything remotely male, and then emulating the very darkest side of masculine behavior. There was a lot of self loathing in those days. It was no longer OK for men to be masculine, and no longer OK for women to be feminine. Femininity was no longer about equality, it was about hostility. For god’s sake, there was even an effort to change the word history to herstory. It was crazy! > > Optimistically, I think we’re returning to a bit more sanity these days. More and more people are coming to realize that while both sexes should enjoy the same rights and respect, we are not identical. Men and women are wired differently. And instead of using those differences to oppress, we can use them to build bridges of understanding. We’re coming to realize that it’s OK for men to be men and for women to be women, with all of the strengths that that implies. > > Thank god. It’s about time. This is a very good and thoughtful answer. But please for my purposes, just for now, let’s just answer the question yes or no. So far, I count three votes for Yes. Anyone else? Does sexism exist? Yes or no? I’m not trying to trick you. Just answer honestly, yes or no. It’s a show of hands. That’s all. ---
**Author:** ![Two\_Many\_Cats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8dc957/32.png) [@Two\_Many\_Cats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Two_Many_Cats)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2010, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-agree-with-everything-she-said-and-yet-nnnyyyrrrrraaaaaarrrrrrrggghhhh/535611/145 "2010-04-13T13:50:28Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > There you go. Let me write this down. Go easy on the long nonsense words. Thank you!😉 ---
**Author:** ![MegaBee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f0a364/32.png) [@MegaBee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MegaBee)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2010, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-agree-with-everything-she-said-and-yet-nnnyyyrrrrraaaaaarrrrrrrggghhhh/535611/146 "2010-04-13T13:54:55Z")
> [@Two\_Many\_Cats](#): > > I’m sorry, but I’ve never studied Socrates. What is the Socratic method? Why is it so provocative? Answering questions with questions, basically. It can be frustrating. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2010, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-agree-with-everything-she-said-and-yet-nnnyyyrrrrraaaaaarrrrrrrggghhhh/535611/147 "2010-04-13T14:00:57Z")
> [@Two\_Many\_Cats](#): > > People, both men and women, are willing to care about a specific problem related to women. That’s a good thing. > > It’s when women feel compelled to compartmentalize their complaints as specific problems to avoid the label of women’s issues, because when they try to discuss women’s issues as a problem of inequality, things swiftly degenerate into scorn and derision over whether or not women are truly equal to men in society. Inasmuch as I can parse this (and I’m straining to do so), you appear to be angry that people (men and women) find it easier to address specific issues rather than batting around some amorphous concept of “women’s issues” in general, which you feel are directly linked (related to? Caused by?) the amorphous notion that “women are not truly equal to men in society.” Well, duh. You can see how far the latter approach has gotten us in this thread, and it’s not “scorn and derision” you’re eliciting, but frustration and bafflement because you’re just offering up buzzwords and generalities and nobody knows what the fuck you want to hear other than “preach it, sister!” So, preach it, sister! (I guess.) ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2010, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-agree-with-everything-she-said-and-yet-nnnyyyrrrrraaaaaarrrrrrrggghhhh/535611/148 "2010-04-13T14:03:52Z")
> [@Two\_Many\_Cats](#): > > This is a very good and thoughtful answer. But please for my purposes, just for now, let’s just answer the question yes or no. So far, I count three votes for Yes. Do you really expect to get any no votes? If you truly want no discussion on the matter and just want to count votes, maybe you could start a poll. But I can laready tell you how it’s going to turn out. ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2010, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-agree-with-everything-she-said-and-yet-nnnyyyrrrrraaaaaarrrrrrrggghhhh/535611/149 "2010-04-13T14:12:20Z")
> [@](#): > > let’s just answer the question yes or no It takes you 137 posts to get to your point. Then, when someone actually attempts to discuss, whatever the hell it is you’re on about, you pull this shit? Pft. Come back when coherent. ---
**Author:** ![Two\_Many\_Cats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8dc957/32.png) [@Two\_Many\_Cats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Two_Many_Cats)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2010, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-agree-with-everything-she-said-and-yet-nnnyyyrrrrraaaaaarrrrrrrggghhhh/535611/150 "2010-04-13T14:23:55Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > Inasmuch as I can parse this (and I’m straining to do so), you appear to be angry that people (men and women) find it easier to address specific issues rather than batting around some amorphous concept of “women’s issues” in general, which you feel are directly linked (related to? Caused by?) the amorphous notion that “women are not truly equal to men in society.” > > Well, duh. You can see how far the latter approach has gotten us in this thread, and it’s not “scorn and derision” you’re eliciting, but frustration and bafflement because you’re just offering up buzzwords and generalities and nobody knows what the fuck you want to hear other than “preach it, sister!” > > So, preach it, sister! (I guess.) I see. I sound angry. I apologize. This subject is important to me right now. I don’t want to hear “preach it sister!” I want honest answers, not what you or any other poster thinks I want to hear. Just answer honestly. I’m trying to find out something here. **Tdn** doubts there will be any no votes. Let’s call it carried unopposed and move on. Next question: Does sexism affect both genders? Yes or no? P.S. Please be patient with me. I am posting from work again. ---
**Author:** ![MegaBee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f0a364/32.png) [@MegaBee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MegaBee)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2010, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-agree-with-everything-she-said-and-yet-nnnyyyrrrrraaaaaarrrrrrrggghhhh/535611/151 "2010-04-13T14:33:11Z")
> [@Two\_Many\_Cats](#): > > Next question: Does sexism affect both genders? Yes or no? > > P.S. Please be patient with me. I am posting from work again. Again, you’re not going to get any nays. It’s obvious that your line of questioning is leading to a particular point, so just get to that point. Include a link to Feminism 101 for anyone who can’t keep up. ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2010, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-agree-with-everything-she-said-and-yet-nnnyyyrrrrraaaaaarrrrrrrggghhhh/535611/152 "2010-04-13T14:37:37Z")
Yes, sexism affects both men and women. Can you possibly, truly and earnestly, be this stupid? Just tell us what you’re trying to ‘find out’ already, enough with the stupid dancing around. > [@](#): > > I want honest answers Um, no you don’t. Anybody who actually tries to parse what you’re talking about, gets told to just answer yes or no. Our patience with you is wearing thin because your barely coherent, not because you’re at work. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2010, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-agree-with-everything-she-said-and-yet-nnnyyyrrrrraaaaaarrrrrrrggghhhh/535611/153 "2010-04-13T14:44:39Z")
> [@Two\_Many\_Cats](#): > > I want honest answers, not what you or any other poster things I want to hear. Just answer honestly. I’m trying to find out something here. I doubt it. What’s our incentive to give honest answers when you’ve shown a willingness to misinterpret them? “Does sexism exist?” “Yes”. “Then why do you believe women are less than men?” ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2010, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-agree-with-everything-she-said-and-yet-nnnyyyrrrrraaaaaarrrrrrrggghhhh/535611/154 "2010-04-13T14:47:58Z")
> [@elbows](#): > > Yes, sexism affects both men and women. > > Can you possibly, truly and earnestly, be this stupid? Dude, cut her a break, she’s a girl. ---
**Author:** ![Two\_Many\_Cats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8dc957/32.png) [@Two\_Many\_Cats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Two_Many_Cats)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2010, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-agree-with-everything-she-said-and-yet-nnnyyyrrrrraaaaaarrrrrrrggghhhh/535611/155 "2010-04-13T14:54:54Z")
Okay. Everyone is too anxious for this. I’ll skip ahead and ask more than one question. 1 Is sexism always wrong? 2 Are men and women equal? 3 Can men and women believe sexist things about their own sex? Is that good or bad or neither? 4 Is discussion of the above possible without anxiety, hurt feelings and defensiveness? Now really, I cannot respond further before lunch break. ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2010, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-agree-with-everything-she-said-and-yet-nnnyyyrrrrraaaaaarrrrrrrggghhhh/535611/156 "2010-04-13T14:59:42Z")
> [@](#): > > Everyone is too anxious for this Yeah, that’s the problem here.:dubious: ---
**Author:** ![MegaBee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f0a364/32.png) [@MegaBee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MegaBee)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2010, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-agree-with-everything-she-said-and-yet-nnnyyyrrrrraaaaaarrrrrrrggghhhh/535611/157 "2010-04-13T15:07:16Z")
> [@Two\_Many\_Cats](#): > > Okay. Everyone is too anxious for this. No, they’re not. Please, please, please just make your point instead of trying to lead everyone toward it via simple questions! ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2010, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-agree-with-everything-she-said-and-yet-nnnyyyrrrrraaaaaarrrrrrrggghhhh/535611/158 "2010-04-13T15:07:51Z")
> [@Two\_Many\_Cats](#): > > There is no alternative for talking about breast cancer. > > What about wanting to talk about women’s issues with inequality? So then why complain that breast cancer is being trotted out because of inequality? Are you saying we should be talking about…I don’t know, rape, instead? I grok that you hate sexism–I’m just not sure that I understand your brand of sexism. I’m not really sure I will any time soon, either. ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2010, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-agree-with-everything-she-said-and-yet-nnnyyyrrrrraaaaaarrrrrrrggghhhh/535611/159 "2010-04-13T15:16:45Z")
Wait, I think I’m getting it… 1. Are you in 9th grade? 2. Was this an assignment? 3. Are you just to stupid to be able and come out and say whatever it is you’re trying to say? Be sure to answer, yes or no, only. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2010, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-agree-with-everything-she-said-and-yet-nnnyyyrrrrraaaaaarrrrrrrggghhhh/535611/160 "2010-04-13T15:33:19Z")
> [@MegaBee](#): > > No, they’re not. Please, please, please just make your point instead of trying to lead everyone toward it via simple questions! Agreed. Please, when you come back, make a statement, not questions. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-agree-with-everything-she-said-and-yet-nnnyyyrrrrraaaaaarrrrrrrggghhhh/535611.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-agree-with-everything-she-said-and-yet-nnnyyyrrrrraaaaaarrrrrrrggghhhh/535611.md?page=9)