I almost had to cut a bitch in obedience class yesterday.

The BBQ Pit
81

This is going way OT but what’s the problem with a dog that doesn’t like other dogs?

Mine doesn’t, at all. I’ve taken him to many obedience classes and saw a behaviorist to deal with the situation and I was very thorough about following their instructions to a T.

The end result was…he didn’t like other dogs.

He walks nicely on leash, knows and follows a billion commands, is fine with people but if a dog runs up to him, he’s not going to be happy about it.

I always go to parks where dogs are required to be on leash. Every once in a while, you get a dog off leash who wants to play with my dog so I get the pleasure of wading in and to make sure that doesn’t happen since the owner of the dog has no control of it and can’t/won’t call the dog back.

Invariably, I get one of two responses:

  1. A dog owner who tells me I shouldn’t have an aggressive dog.

Never mind that, we were walking/jogging peacefully on leash, in an area where dogs are required to be on leash, and weren’t bothering anyone until an untrained dog decided to jump on my dog.

  1. A dog owner who tells me that the two dogs should work it out themselves and its my fault anyway for having an aggressive dog.

Never mind that I’ve spent a lot of money on obedience classes and behaviorist and they all said that I should try and avoid a situation where my dog has a aggressive response because it merely reinforces the behavior.

So the end result is I cross a lot of streets when I’m walking my dog and it really doesn’t have anything to do with my dog’s behavior. It’s got everything to do with the behavior of other dog owners.

I understand it’s frustrating to see a dog develope a Napolean complex (which it sounds like your dog has) but sometimes dogs just don’t like other dogs (or cats, or rodents or…) and to expect friendly behavior from dogs 100% is a recipe for a dog fight.

I also understand that your sister might be reinforcing your dog’s behavior but again, at the very least she’s making sure nothing untoward happens. There are a lot of people who let their dogs do whatever they want, no matter how unfriendly or unpredictable the dog is. Responsibility always being in short supply.

82

I’ve got sour news for you: a dog who doesn’t like dogs isn’t being much of a dog.

83

Great point. If people hadn’t been trained to find big dogs and certain breeds threatening, more thugs would have yippy lapdgos.

84

You’re merely repeating yourself.

I was asking why you would be naive enough to think this.

85

Why do you take your dog to the dog park if it doesn’t like dogs?

86

I don’t take him to a “dog park.” Where did I say that?

87

Well, you mentioned a park where there are other dogs, I assumed it was a dog park.

88

Actually, if you read what I said, I mentioned a park where dogs are required to be on leash. This doesn’t really fit into the definition of most dog parks I’ve seen.

Believe it or not, there are parks out there primarily meant for human use.

89

You have a dog – a dog – that you can’t make get along with other DOGS, and I’m naive?

Listen, I’m not trying to insult you. It’s a plain fact of dog behavior that balanced dogs are capable of dealing with other dogs at proper socialized levels. Your dog isn’t one of them. Sorry. I calls 'em like I see’s 'em.

90

They will all thank you for it, I’m sure. There are enough idiots associated with them as it is.

91

To make myself clearer, you’re not insulting me and what you think of my dog isn’t of interest to me.

What I’m interested in understanding is why you (and many others) think all dogs belong in some cookie cutter mold where their personalities and behavior should be x and when they deviate from x, they’re lableled abnormal.

I’m not interested in a new-agey idea of “balanced dogs.” What am I interested in is what facts you have to support this…in their evolution, in their genetics etc.

To use another example which hopefully will be more understandable: I’ve seen quite a few posts on this board where people will ask for help for a dog problem of some sort. I

Invariably, no matter what the problem is, someone will chime in with a variant of “the dog’s trying to be alpha over you, hide the kitchen knives and establish dominance over your dog.”

So why, when a dog does x, must it always be because of reason y?

92

#1 - No one, at least not me, said “abnormal,” not in the sense that there’s some bad wiring or something. In fact, if anything you’re the one telling me that your dog isn’t like the millions of other dogs on the planet that … boing … get along with other dogs. There’s no denying that it is in a dog’s nature to be sociable with other dogs. Dogs are pack animals. This isn’t rocket surgery.

#2 - The term “balanced dog” is not new-agey. It’s fucking English. A balanced dog is a happy dog. A balanced dog is one that isn’t aggressive, or tense, or excited or whatever just because there’s another dog around. It’s just a way of saying that a dog is acting like a dog.

#3 - I wouldn’t put forth that last argument. Of course it isn’t always that the dog is going alpha, or whatever. Sometimes it’s the opposite. A frightened, or tense, or neurotic dog isn’t going to relate to other dogs, or their masters as one would expect, i.e., balanced.

When all is said and done, we as domesticaters, have ample evidence as to how dogs behave, and what makes the happy or balanced or what-have-you. And I guaran-goddamned-tee you that when your dog gets riled up to the point that you have to drag him away from another dog lest fur flies … he ain’t happy.

93

This is all your opinion. I am just asking for proof of your opinion (that a dog is supposed to always be X) not nebulous and vague terms like “happy” or “balanced.” Note, I’m not just talking about aggression but other behaviors, as well. I always find it interesting that people make broad based assumptions and when asking for evidence of their assumptions, proffer things like it “isn’t rocket surgery.”

Again using the example of how popular the term “alpha” is, there is no such thing as an alpha wolf (or at least what people commonly believe is an alpha wolf). The term, however, is used extensively to describe a dog’s behavior when dogs and wolves are very different from each other and when the mythos of the alpha wolf doesnt’ even exist. I’m sure if I asked someone why they believed in the idea of an alpha dog/wolf, I’d get something along the lines of “it’s not rocket surgery” as well.

94

I’ve tried to lay it out in the simplest terms I can.

If you don’t want to believe me that pack animals prefer to behave as pack animals, and yes, they are “happier” doing so (sorry, didn’t mean to get all my gooiness on you), then you are the one being naive.

As for “alpha” … you keep latching on to that term as though I’ve written a book on it or something. A pack has a leader, or alpha dog, if you wish, (or not if you just really hate that terminology). And yes it is important for a human master of a dog to act as a pack leader for him. That’s what dogs understand.

I don’t get why you feel the need to argue against nature in this instance. A well trained, well socialized, balanced dog gets along with other dogs. End of story. This isn’t opinion. Every dog that’s ever lived is my cite.

95

Yeah, I think is an exercise in pointlessness. I’ve seen other people, not just you, with similar (wrong) ideas. When asked for evidence, none is forthcoming. I don’t think you even understand what a pack animal is or how a pack functions…which I guess is neither here nor there.

No, I used it twice as an example of a popular meme that has no basis in reality similar to the notions you’ve been espousing.

I’m not arguing against nature. I have no idea why you think that (and btw, training and socializing have nothing to do with nature).
But you’re correct on one thing. End of store.

96

Whether or not you believe in a “pack” or “alpha” leader, isn’t it (or shouldn’t it) be taken for granted that an owner has control over their dog’s behavior? That is, you lead the dog, it doesn’t lead you.

97

You want evidence that dogs act like dogs?

How’s this: Dogs

And I’m the one who doesn’t understand how a pack functions? Alpha dog, schmalpha dog. Look at what Freudian Slit said, “you lead the dog, it doesn’t lead you.” Right now, you’re letting your dog lead you. Face it, if you can’t train your dog to not attack other dogs, that’s your fault, not his.

I was trying to be nice here for the most part. I didn’t call you names or anything, I merely point out that a dog … like yours … which needs to be kept away from other dogs or else he’ll attack them, is not a well balanced dog, and is in fact, an aggressive ill-trained dog.

But you just had to get a wild hair across your ass with your smug rationalizations for how your poor aggressive dog is just misunderstood or something. So now you can bite me … or get your dog to.

98

I usually stay the hell out of the Pit, but this subject line showed up, and as a dog person that loves obedience work, I had to jump in and read. May I offer my 2 cents?

I used to be a trainer for my local obedience club, and have put many titles on my own and my parents’ dogs. I like to think I know a little bit about dogs.

I used to own Doberman Pinschers, another breed thought of as dangerous and aggressive. Now, all of mine were very sweet tempered and loving. They got along with other dogs of all sizes. My last red bitch used to carry my Siamese cat around in her mouth. BUT…Not all Dobies are like that. Folks, it depends A.) on their breeding-some bloodlines are more aggressive than others and B.) On the way they have been raised and trained. One of my best friends had a gorgeous male, a show champion, and I was bitten by him twice, even tho he KNEW me. He was simply never corrected for his behavior, and in fact, encouraged to growl at people.

The ‘Pit Breeds’ are the same way. There are good Pits and there are bad Pits. MOST OF THE TIME it depends on the owner… but not always. I have known some Pits that were marshmallows, and others that would just as soon bite you as look at you. I woud say a good 75% have been dog aggressive, and that, IN MY OPINION, is a deal breaker. I do not want a dog that I have to be on guard with every moment.

Rottweilers are another good example. I have a friend that breeds and shows Rotties. She bred a litter that were without a doubt the SWEETEST dogs I have ever known. Her 140 lb male adored me and thought he was a lap dog. Then she bought a male from a different bloodline, and from the time she got him at 4 or 5 months old, he was a terror. He ended up attacking a child at ringside when he was about 2 years old. She had him put down, and was given a replacement dog. FROM THE SAME BLOODLINE.

This dog was a carbon copy of the first. He was about 18 months old when he attacked another of her dogs and when she tried to break them up he turned on her and put her in the hospital. He, too, was euthanised. The point of this story is… same breed, same upbringing, different bloodline, different dispositions. It can happen in any breed.

I now own an intact male Gordon Setter. He is a happy, silly, goofy loverboy. BUT… he has shown on occasion a little dog aggressiveness, growling when another male gets up in his face. I always correct it, but I will never feel 100% safe with him around other, strange dogs. Yet, his field handler has never had a moment’s trouble with him in hunt tests, where he is turned loose in a field with another dog to hunt birds.

As far as the Sheltie Woman’s caution about the OP’s dog… in my opinion, it was justified. She didn’t yell and scream and jerk her dog away. She didn’t tell you that your dog should be euthanised because it’s an ‘unpredictable breed’-yes, I had that happen at the vet with my last Dobie, who was sitting quietly at my feet, while the woman that said it was hanging onto her Chow’s chain with both hands while the dog lunged and barked and snarled. She went so far as to say that she thought Dobermans should be outlawed and all of them destroyed. I was too stunned to speak, and thankfully, was called into the exam room at that moment, because Iwas ready to cut *THAT *bitch. While you know your dog to be a sweetheart, not everyone does. There are a lot of different dogs that fall under the catagory of ‘Pit Bull’ and I will ALWAYS err on the side of caution. But for the record… I have known some pretty darned aggressive Catahoulas, too. I am NOT saying that yours is, but they are out there. Would I have asked before approaching your dog? Most likely. Would I have asked before approaching the Wiem and the Doxie? Absolutely. I love my dogs too damned much to take chances.

Face it… a nervous dog is a dog that is likely to bite. It doesn’t make then a bad dog, but it does make them a risk. And I am not willing to take that risk with my babies.

99

No, not all. I used him as an example which I’ve already said before. I’ve also said I should have made my orignal post clearer as to what I was asking as well as saying that it could be any behavioral trait, not just aggression. I don’t see how I can clarify things any more for you. If you want to ignore that, have at it…it’s merely another example of you clinging to an idea that has no basis in reality.

I simply wanted to know why you think dogs must always perform behavior X and not behavior Y?. What in their evolution leads you to think they’re automatons?

If a LGD or an APBT attacks another dog, is that a dog who is unhappy or unbalanced or who doesn’t understand the rules of a pack (or what you think is a pack)? Or if a Fila attacks a person, is that dog unbalanced or unhappy and doesn’t understand the rules of what you think of as a pack?

To try for another example. Ten labrador retrievers from excellent lines are given to a trainer who has produced many Field Trial champions. Would you think all ten puppies would then become Field Trial champions, given equal amounts of training? If some of these puppies did not succeed, would you think those dogs were unhappy or unbalanced or had different color auras than the more successful dogs?