# I always knew Cheney was quick to temper after that, "Go fuck yourself,"... **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 12, 2006, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-always-knew-cheney-was-quick-to-temper-after-that-go-fuck-yourself/344164 "2006-02-12T21:45:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 18
**Author:** ![Slacker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6bbea6/32.png) [@Slacker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slacker)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2006, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-always-knew-cheney-was-quick-to-temper-after-that-go-fuck-yourself/344164/341 "2006-02-15T03:17:14Z")
He’s supposed to shoot the gun out of Cheney’s hands, of course. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2006, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-always-knew-cheney-was-quick-to-temper-after-that-go-fuck-yourself/344164/342 "2006-02-15T04:13:57Z")
> [@lieu](#): > > That language implies intent. Is anyone here actually suggesting… Does anyone here actually believe that this was anything other than a very regrettable hunting accident? Because your language sure suggests such. > > Huh, how about that. Strange that the news last night said that not only did the Secret Service contact local law enforcement but they even had the sheriff acknowledge that his deputy had interviewed Cheney shortly after the accident. > > Surely then you’ll be able to provide a “reputable” cite for your accusation of obstruction of justice and public drunkeness. Yes? It was a hunting accident. There was no “intent to kill or injure”. Was it carelessness? Maybe. Was it a natural lessening of awareness or reflexes due to age and/or medical problems? Maybe. I’ll stick my neck out and say, Cheney probably was not drinking. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2006, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-always-knew-cheney-was-quick-to-temper-after-that-go-fuck-yourself/344164/343 "2006-02-15T04:50:44Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > It was a hunting accident. There was no “intent to kill or injure”. Was it carelessness? Maybe. Was it a natural lessening of awareness or reflexes due to age and/or medical problems? Maybe. > > I’ll stick my neck out and say, Cheney probably was not drinking. Well, it sure wasn’t a “peppering.” Cheney shot the living fuck out of Whittington. Put him in intensive care. I mean, Cheney really blew him away, considering he was only loaded with birdshot! He really blasted Whittington! I mean, BLAMMO!!! Whoo-eee!!! Mowed the man down! As for the drinking, guess we’ll never know, since everyone there has every motivation to lie if he was, and the local cops weren’t allowed to talk to him for 24 hours. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2006, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-always-knew-cheney-was-quick-to-temper-after-that-go-fuck-yourself/344164/344 "2006-02-15T04:54:35Z")
If we assume that Cheny wasn’t drinking and wasn’t careless, was does that leave? ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2006, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-always-knew-cheney-was-quick-to-temper-after-that-go-fuck-yourself/344164/345 "2006-02-15T04:57:28Z")
> [@Zoe](#): > > If we assume that Cheny wasn’t drinking and wasn’t careless, was does that leave? why are we outruling careless? ---
**Author:** ![asterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4da419/32.png) [@asterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asterion)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2006, 5:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-always-knew-cheney-was-quick-to-temper-after-that-go-fuck-yourself/344164/346 "2006-02-15T05:49:56Z")
“I am…armed with knives…and trained to kill people.” “And I don’t think it’d surprise many Americans…to learn that I have…killed hundreds of people.” Or something along those lines from Letterman tonight. ---
**Author:** ![appleciders](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85f322/32.png) [@appleciders](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/appleciders)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2006, 6:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-always-knew-cheney-was-quick-to-temper-after-that-go-fuck-yourself/344164/347 "2006-02-15T06:28:57Z")
> [@pravnik](#): > > My edjumacated WAG from what little we’ve heard is that it’s unlikely, but from a purely legal perspective, it’s possible. From the Texas Penal Code: > > MANSLAUGHTER. (a) A person commits an > offense if he recklessly causes the death of an individual. > (b) An offense under this section is a felony of the second > degree. Well, if Cheney did indeed “whirl to shoot a covey of quail”, as [this link](http://www.int.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1&click_id=22&art_id=qw1139951704137B252) suggests, I think an arguement could be made that he was indeed “recklessly causing the death of an individual.” Then again, I’m no lawyer. Am I off base here? ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2006, 6:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-always-knew-cheney-was-quick-to-temper-after-that-go-fuck-yourself/344164/348 "2006-02-15T06:29:56Z")
All this debate about “intent” is crackin me up. Does anyone think that Cheney does his own dirty laundry? If Cheney wanted to kill a guy, anywhere near that guy is the last place you’d find him. Cheney’s innocence is proved by the fact that he pulled the trigger. If his intent had been to kill the guy, he’d’a been a thousand miles away, and ninjas woulda taken the guy quail hunting. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2006, 6:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-always-knew-cheney-was-quick-to-temper-after-that-go-fuck-yourself/344164/349 "2006-02-15T06:59:39Z")
> [@](#): > > **wring** : why are we outruling careless? We’re not! I just hear some of the apologists suggesting that Cheney wasn’t being careless, and I’m thinking they might want to reconsider holding onto that excuse for a while longer. 😃 > [@](#): > > **Mr. Moto** : If you don’t know what I’m talking about, and it does remain an obscure incident, just Google the name “Ruth Merwin”. **Moto** , just because you don’t know something, don’t assume that the information is obscure. I have known about the death of that child since the mid-1960’s when Stevenson was the Ambassador to the UN. I have commented at SDMB about the sadness that he carried in his eyes. That was in spite of a totally mesmerizing personableness. And I have often wondered if that shooting was one of the sources of that haunted look. **It would be of any man of heart and compassion and let no one doubt that he had that.** There was no coverup or secretiveness about it since it is mentioned in all of his biographies. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2006, 11:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-always-knew-cheney-was-quick-to-temper-after-that-go-fuck-yourself/344164/350 "2006-02-15T11:11:34Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > That Rove was [conferring with Katherine Armstrong within an hour and a half of the shooting](http://www.nytimes.com/2006/02/13/politics/13cnd-cheney.html?_r=1&hp&ex=1139893200&en=181b942291c6b3ef&ei=5094&partner=homepage&oref=slogin), not to mention 12 hours before the cops got there, and 18 hours before the public was informed, seems pretty noteworthy to me. > > Of course, if Katherine Armstrong is related to Texas ranch owners and Republican politicos [Tobin and Anne Armstrong, who’ve got a relationship with Rove going back to the 1980s](http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/articles/030512fa_fact3), then that might explain it. Following up: turns out Katharine Armstrong is [Anne Armstrong’s daughter](http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/02/14/cheney/). > [@](#): > > Katharine Armstrong’s mother, Anne Armstrong, served on the board of directors of Halliburton, the oil field service company Cheney ran before becoming vice president. She also served as U.S. ambassador to Britain in the Ford administration. More timeline, from the same article: > [@](#): > > A medical team accompanying the vice president administered first aid to Whittington when the accident happened at 5:50 p.m., Secret Service spokesman Tom Mazur said. The Secret Service told sheriff’s deputies about the accident an hour later, after Whittington was headed for a hospital in Kingsville and the hunting party had returned to the ranch house, he said. > > A Kenedy County sheriff’s deputy questioned Cheney about the shooting on Sunday, Mazur said. > > White House Chief of Staff Andrew Card told President Bush about 7:30 p.m. Saturday that there had been a hunting accident, but Card did not know the vice president had been involved at the time, the White House said. About 8 p.m., after talking with Armstrong, Deputy Chief of Staff Karl Rove told Bush that Cheney had shot Whittington. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2006, 11:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-always-knew-cheney-was-quick-to-temper-after-that-go-fuck-yourself/344164/351 "2006-02-15T11:17:14Z")
I think **elelle** has made an important point about the Secret Service. Maybe they couldn’t have prevented Cheney from shooting Whittington, but they _had_ to be present: it’s hard to conceive that they would have let Cheney wander around a field with a group of people with loaded guns, without guarding him and making sure none of the other members of the hunting party shot _him_ by accident. And they’re witnesses, if need be, which I think is the significant point. Why rely on Katharine Armstrong’s storyline if you’ve got the freakin’ Secret Service having seen most of what went on? ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2006, 11:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-always-knew-cheney-was-quick-to-temper-after-that-go-fuck-yourself/344164/352 "2006-02-15T11:23:46Z")
Concerning alcohol: apparently now they’re saying that there _was_ beer served not too long before the shooting, although MSNBC has scrubbed the story after initially reporting it. [Screen grab from C&L](http://www.crooksandliars.com/stories/2006/02/14/msnbcscrubsBeerLineFromCheneyStory.html). ---
**Author:** ![alaricthegoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4bbf92/32.png) [@alaricthegoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alaricthegoth)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2006, 12:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-always-knew-cheney-was-quick-to-temper-after-that-go-fuck-yourself/344164/353 "2006-02-15T12:33:53Z")
IAAL, and tho it pains me to mitigate the liability of the prince of darkness, “reckless”, particularly if used to boost a negligent homicide to a more culpable level of manslaughter would be more like: cheney whirls, secret service man at his side says :“sir, hold your fire, i think i saw mr. W”, cheney snarls “go fuck yourself I know what I’m doing, he’s 10 degrees left of my bird”, etc. Reckless conduct implies that you have “in contemplation” the particular risk that you are imposing on the hapless bystander,and, having that risk in contemplation (or, in the absence of the said contemplation, ignoring a risk that a reasonable person would contemplate)going ahead with the high risk conduct. I think he was negligent, not reckless,on the facts (as described.) If alcohol is added to the mix, however, there may well be statutary presumptions that intervene to raise the level of culpability as a matter of law. I am blessedly ignorant of Texas law, but I’d bet that in general their firearms jurisprudence leans towards calling the close ones for the shooter… ---
**Author:** ![alaricthegoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4bbf92/32.png) [@alaricthegoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alaricthegoth)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2006, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-always-knew-cheney-was-quick-to-temper-after-that-go-fuck-yourself/344164/354 "2006-02-15T12:43:09Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > I think **elelle** has made an important point about the Secret Service. Maybe they couldn’t have prevented Cheney from shooting Whittington, but they _had_ to be present: it’s hard to conceive that they would have let Cheney wander around a field with a group of people with loaded guns, without guarding him and making sure none of the other members of the hunting party shot _him_ by accident. > > And they’re witnesses, if need be, which I think is the significant point. Why rely on Katharine Armstrong’s storyline if you’ve got the freakin’ Secret Service having seen most of what went on? come to think, re:my fantasy scenario involving the hypothetical exchange with the ss man, perhaps there was interaction with a ss man close by (per elelle’s musings) and he did try to intervene unsuccessfully which would mandate keeping the secret service away from questions… ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2006, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-always-knew-cheney-was-quick-to-temper-after-that-go-fuck-yourself/344164/355 "2006-02-15T13:14:40Z")
Was there alcohol involved? Maybe we’ll never know. In it’s initial report, now only visible [from a Google seach](http://news.google.com/nwshp?hl=en&tab=wn&q=%22beer%20or%20two%20in%20there%22) > [@](#): > > “There may be a beer or two in there,” she said, “but remember not everyone in the party was shooting.”. But now, the [MSNBC article](http://msnbc.msn.com/id/11349649/) found in the search has had the reference purged from the story. So it appears that MSNBC, being the obedient dogs that they are, has rolled over for the White House. The news reports get sanitized and the police are kept away from the veep until the next day. If there _wasn’t_ alcohol involved, why censor the report and why keep the cops away for a day? Sometimes it seems the White House bends over backward to appear crooked and/or incompetent. ---
**Author:** ![Trunk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/87869e/32.png) [@Trunk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trunk)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2006, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-always-knew-cheney-was-quick-to-temper-after-that-go-fuck-yourself/344164/356 "2006-02-15T14:16:15Z")
> **[Andrew Tobias](https://andrewtobias.com/)** > > Money and Other Subjects brings up a couple interesting points about drinking. (sorry if this angle has already been hashed out. I haven’t read the thread. ) ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2006, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-always-knew-cheney-was-quick-to-temper-after-that-go-fuck-yourself/344164/357 "2006-02-15T14:23:38Z")
[Here’s an interesting WaPo story](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/02/14/AR2006021400990.html): > [@](#): > > [Sheriff] Salinas and [Chief Deputy] San Miguel said they went to the site of the shooting. They said Whittington had been standing in the bed of a dried pond, several feet downhill from where Cheney and another hunter, Pamela Pitzer Willeford, the U.S. ambassador to Switzerland and Liechtenstein, were standing as they were shooting quail. “He was standing in a low-lying area, and they were out in front on higher ground,” Salinas said. The vehicle carrying two other members of the hunting party “was directly behind the vice president and everybody else, from what we were told.” Cheney was shooting _down_ at his quail? Towards lower ground? I’m no hunter, so correct me if I’m wrong, but that strikes me as a bad practice. Hell, if the ground drops away in front of you, you ought to be able to fire towards open sky just by firing on the level; you wouldn’t even have to raise your gun barrel. And in another vein, there’s this: > [@](#): > > “After what [Cheney] told us, we concluded it was an accident,” Salinas said. “All [San Miguel] had left to do was talk to the victim.” San Miguel and another sheriff’s deputy spoke to Whittington in the hospital Monday morning. > > “He did inform me this was an accident,” said San Miguel, who also declined to provide details from that interview. > > “Once the victim told him it was an accident, what else do you do?” Salinas said. Well, [here’s what they do if your name’s Mendoza, not Cheney](http://thurgood.blogspot.com/2006_02_01_thurgood_archive.html#113992130673189981): > [@](#): > > An undocumented Mexican immigrant was shot and killed Sunday evening in an apparent hunting accident on a Webb County ranch owned by the family of former U.S. diplomat John G. Hurd. > > “The illegals were crouching out in the brush. They said they mistook this guy for a hog,” said Webb County Sheriff Juan Garza… > > Juan Garza Mendoza, 34, an employee of the ranch, was charged Monday with manslaughter, a second-degree felony punishable by up to 20 years in prison… > > Mendoza had apparently hit Barrera Vasquez while shooting at a feral hog, and immediately contacted authorities after the shooting, Hurd said. > > Sheriff Garza said interviews with three of the victim’s Mexican traveling companions and the others in the ranch hunting party led him to rule out anything but an accidental shooting. > > “They mistakenly shot a human being,” he said. “It’s reckless. It’s inexcusable.” They eventually dropped the charge, pending the outcome of a civil suit, but still: it looks like _some_ Texas hunters get serious charges filed against them for accidental shootings. ---
**Author:** ![askeptic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/eb9ed0/32.png) [@askeptic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/askeptic)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2006, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-always-knew-cheney-was-quick-to-temper-after-that-go-fuck-yourself/344164/358 "2006-02-15T14:25:06Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > I think **elelle** has made an important point about the Secret Service. Maybe they couldn’t have prevented Cheney from shooting Whittington, but they _had_ to be present: it’s hard to conceive that they would have let Cheney wander around a field with a group of people with loaded guns, without guarding him and making sure none of the other members of the hunting party shot _him_ by accident. > > And they’re witnesses, if need be, which I think is the significant point. Why rely on Katharine Armstrong’s storyline if you’ve got the freakin’ Secret Service having seen most of what went on? Becase they have a long history lying to protect the person they are guarding. They protect not only the person but their reputation. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2006, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-always-knew-cheney-was-quick-to-temper-after-that-go-fuck-yourself/344164/359 "2006-02-15T14:32:47Z")
[Slate publishes some questions Whittington’s friends are asking](http://www.slate.com/id/2136206/): who, if anyone, was in charge of the hunt (apparently standard practice is for a nonparticipant to direct the action, to make sure firing stops when the hunters get out of line); at what range was he hit (see quote below), and who was at fault (that’s not a question, really; their assumption is that if you shoot a hunting buddy instead of the bird, you’re the one at fault). > [@](#): > > The hunt took place on a cold, windy afternoon. Whittington and his fellow hunters were probably wearing warm clothing—say, a jacket and a flannel shirt. Cheney was using a 28-gauge shotgun, a smaller-diameter firearm with pellets smaller than BBs. Whittington’s friends question whether the pellets could have penetrated his layers of clothing and skin at that range. Yet two pellets lodged against his larynx, another was in his liver, and another migrated into the heart muscle, causing the heart attack. The pattern of wounds was between the lower chest and the forehead, a pretty tight zone for shot of 30 yards. If the range was considerably less than 30 yards, then it is likely that Whittington’s injuries were worse than the initial statement by Katharine Armstrong indicated. (The blast “knocked him silly,” but “he was fine.”) ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2006, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-always-knew-cheney-was-quick-to-temper-after-that-go-fuck-yourself/344164/360 "2006-02-15T14:38:39Z")
> [@askeptic](#): > > Becase they have a long history lying to protect the person they are guarding. They protect not only the person but their reputation. Can you document that? And if it’s so, then it’s a practice that needs to be stopped. The Secret Service is there to physically protect the President, Vice-President, and their families, and unless called to testify, they’re required to keep their mouths shut - which is essential, I think, given that they’re a perpetual ‘fly on the wall’. But if they’re going so far as to lie in one or more of those few situations where their testimony is needed - and I won’t believe it without a solid cite - well, the best way to deal with that is to swear them in, record their testimony as one would for any other witness, and charge them if there’s sufficient evidence that they’ve perjured themselves. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-always-knew-cheney-was-quick-to-temper-after-that-go-fuck-yourself/344164.md?page=17) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-always-knew-cheney-was-quick-to-temper-after-that-go-fuck-yourself/344164.md?page=19)