# I am a better human being than Pres. Bush and Dick Cheney because I oppose torture **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 16, 2005, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-a-better-human-being-than-pres-bush-and-dick-cheney-because-i-oppose-torture/335917 "2005-12-16T15:20:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2005, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-a-better-human-being-than-pres-bush-and-dick-cheney-because-i-oppose-torture/335917/1 "2005-12-16T15:20:03Z")
I am also a better human being than those who support Bush, Cheney and their minions in the use of torture. If you support torture, you’re a blight on the species, it’s virtually your civic duty to off yourself. I just thought some of you would like to know that. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2005, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-a-better-human-being-than-pres-bush-and-dick-cheney-because-i-oppose-torture/335917/2 "2005-12-16T16:03:29Z")
Just for the sake of playing devil’s advocate, and not because I agree with them… What if torturing a known or suspected terrorist were the fastest, or only, way to gain information needed to thwart a terrorist attack? What if the torture of one or two people could prevent the death and suffering of hundreds in a 9/11-type incident? Does preferring the former to the latter automatically make one a morally reprehensible person? ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2005, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-a-better-human-being-than-pres-bush-and-dick-cheney-because-i-oppose-torture/335917/3 "2005-12-16T16:07:44Z")
> [@Thudlow Boink](#): > > Just for the sake of playing devil’s advocate, and not because I agree with them… > > What if torturing a known or suspected terrorist were the fastest, or only, way to gain information needed to thwart a terrorist attack? What if the torture of one or two people could prevent the death and suffering of hundreds in a 9/11-type incident? Does preferring the former to the latter automatically make one a morally reprehensible person? The old “worst case scenario” eh? Is this a basis on which to build one’s ethics? There may be rare circumstances in which torture might preven the death of hundreds or thousands, or even tens of innocents, but that doesn’t make it right. I think in those instances people should make the decision to torture or not torture and live with the consequences. Really, Thudlow, how often do you think this kind of shit comes up? If you look at how torture is ACTUALLY practiced by evil dictatorships like we currently have in the US, such circumstances are rare enough to be nonexistent. I think anyone who approves torture on a flimsy basis like that actually has different reasons, whether they know it or not, and are in fact inferior human beings who should etc., etc. ---
**Author:** ![Stringer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/eb8c5e/32.png) [@Stringer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stringer)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2005, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-a-better-human-being-than-pres-bush-and-dick-cheney-because-i-oppose-torture/335917/4 "2005-12-16T16:15:58Z")
Can you define torture so we’re all on the same page? ---
**Author:** ![Scott\_Plaid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Scott\_Plaid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scott_Plaid)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2005, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-a-better-human-being-than-pres-bush-and-dick-cheney-because-i-oppose-torture/335917/5 "2005-12-16T16:18:07Z")
> [@Evil Captor](#): > > I am also a better human being than those who support Bush, Cheney and their minions in the use of torture. I would have to disagree. I don’t really see how doing the same thing (Keeping people prisoner against their will) is any better when done one a small scale. Now, Bush is keeping captive one hell of a lot of people. However, every time I see the poster named “ **Evil** ” in a thread, you inevitably burst in, prove him wrong, then you chase him from the thread and lock him up in your basement. True, I think his statements are often wrong, but he has broken no law, and so it is quite wrong for you to hold him captive. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2005, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-a-better-human-being-than-pres-bush-and-dick-cheney-because-i-oppose-torture/335917/6 "2005-12-16T16:18:53Z")
> [@Thudlow Boink](#): > > Just for the sake of playing devil’s advocate, and not because I agree with them… > > What if torturing a known or suspected terrorist were the fastest, or only, way to gain information needed to thwart a terrorist attack? What if the torture of one or two people could prevent the death and suffering of hundreds in a 9/11-type incident? Does preferring the former to the latter automatically make one a morally reprehensible person? According to some article I read yesterday, that argument is called “slicing the salami”. The article (or editorial) called this a false argument because, the first small slice sounds reasonable. So does the next. And so on. The only reasonable thing to do, is to reject the entire argument. [http://www.slate.com/id/2132195/nav/tap1/](http://www.slate.com/id/2132195/nav/tap1/) > [@Slate](#): > > Torture for Dummies > In law school, they call this second point, “salami-slicing.” You start with a seemingly solid principle, then start slicing: If you would torture to save a million lives, would you do it for half a million? A thousand? Two dozen? What if there’s only a two-out-of-three chance that person you’re torturing has the crucial information? A 50-50 chance? One chance in 10? **At what point does your moral calculus change, and why? Slice the salami too far, and the formerly solid principle disappears. …** > Once we are rid of the childish notion of an absolute ban on torture, there is no telling where adult minds may take us. > > The trouble with salami-slicing is that it doesn’t stop just because you do. … > **"Hard cases make bad law." It means that divining a general policy from statistical oddballs is a mistake.** Better to have a policy that works generally and just live with a troublesome result in the oddball case. … > But college dorm what-ifs like this one share a flaw: They posit certainty (about what you know and what will happen if you do this or that). ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2005, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-a-better-human-being-than-pres-bush-and-dick-cheney-because-i-oppose-torture/335917/7 "2005-12-16T16:20:15Z")
> [@micahjn](#): > > Can you define torture so we’re all on the same page? My definition of torture would be anything that falls outside the OLD Uniform Code of Military Justice rules. Most everything that Bush and Cheney approve of would be outside the rubric: waterboarding, pulling out fingernails, beatings, prolonged stress positions, sleep, food and water deprivation, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2005, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-a-better-human-being-than-pres-bush-and-dick-cheney-because-i-oppose-torture/335917/8 "2005-12-16T16:21:49Z")
> [@Scott Plaid](#): > > I would have to disagree. I don’t really see how doing the same thing (Keeping people prisoner against their will) is any better when done one a small scale. I don’t understand what you mean by this. Could you elucidate? Now, Bush is keeping captive one hell of a lot of people. However, every time I see the poster named “ **Evil** ” in a thread, you inevitably burst in, prove him wrong, then you chase him from the thread and lock him up in your basement. True, I think his statements are often wrong, but he has broken no law, and so it is quite wrong for you to hold him captive. 😉 [/QUOTE] I’m not following thise either. I know you have a point somewhere in there … ---
**Author:** ![Scott\_Plaid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Scott\_Plaid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scott_Plaid)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2005, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-a-better-human-being-than-pres-bush-and-dick-cheney-because-i-oppose-torture/335917/9 "2005-12-16T16:22:23Z")
“Madam, we have already decided what kind of women you are. Now we are murely hagling over the price.” ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2005, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-a-better-human-being-than-pres-bush-and-dick-cheney-because-i-oppose-torture/335917/10 "2005-12-16T16:22:31Z")
> [@Thudlow Boink](#): > > Just for the sake of playing devil’s advocate, and not because I agree with them… > > What if torturing a known or suspected terrorist were the fastest, or only, way to gain information needed to thwart a terrorist attack? What if the torture of one or two people could prevent the death and suffering of hundreds in a 9/11-type incident? Does preferring the former to the latter automatically make one a morally reprehensible person? What if someone is about to set off a nuclear bomb in Manhattan and the only way you can prevent it is by raping a baby? Would you do it? These kinds of extreme hypothetical scenarios are pointless because you can contrive some sort of hypothetical situation to justify just about anything. Israel has been torturing people for years. They’ve got a lot of false confessions but they haven’t stopped any terrorism. All they’ve done is create more enemies. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2005, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-a-better-human-being-than-pres-bush-and-dick-cheney-because-i-oppose-torture/335917/11 "2005-12-16T16:23:41Z")
> [@Evil Captor](#): > > My definition of torture would be anything that falls outside the OLD Uniform Code of Military Justice rules. Most everything that Bush and Cheney approve of would be outside the rubric: waterboarding, pulling out fingernails, beatings, prolonged stress positions, sleep, food and water deprivation, etc. I’m completely OK with sleep and food deprivation as an interrogation tactic. Should I “off” myself? Also, can we have a cite that Bush and/or Cheney approve of pulling out fingernails? ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2005, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-a-better-human-being-than-pres-bush-and-dick-cheney-because-i-oppose-torture/335917/12 "2005-12-16T16:28:35Z")
> [@Evil Captor](#): > > If you look at how torture is ACTUALLY practiced by evil dictatorships like we currently have in the US, such circumstances are rare enough to be nonexistent. Are you saying that, in our current government, torture is rare enough to be nonexistent? If so, what’s the point of this thread? ---
**Author:** ![Scott\_Plaid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Scott\_Plaid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scott_Plaid)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2005, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-a-better-human-being-than-pres-bush-and-dick-cheney-because-i-oppose-torture/335917/13 "2005-12-16T16:30:07Z")
> [@Evil Captor](#): > > I’m not following this either. I know you have a point somewhere in there … No point, just a compliment. However, I got the name wrong. The poster in question is named [“Evil One”](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/member.php), not simply “Evil” I often see you debunking his points, so posted that with the conceit that I actually believed that your name meant you were in charge of rounding up and subduing the **Evil One** , taken to the comedic extreme of your actually keeping him captive **in person**. Ah well, it didn’t work. ---
**Author:** ![inkhead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/bb73d2/32.png) [@inkhead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/inkhead)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2005, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-a-better-human-being-than-pres-bush-and-dick-cheney-because-i-oppose-torture/335917/14 "2005-12-16T16:34:31Z")
I’d like to make a comment as all over the news there has been discussion at great lengths about “torture” **The intelligence gathering agencies are light years ahead of “torture” as a method of gathering information**. \*\*The idea that the CIA or any agency ties somebody up and threatens physical harm unless the person gives information, is nothing more than a movie fantasy. \*\* One method (very, very outdated) was to give people with potential valuable information a cocktail of drugs that made them speak (akin to being very very drunk) freely about anything and everything. There are many other ways. IBM sold a huge amount of “brain wave readers” (if you can believe that) back in the 90s to the CIA and FBI, which essentially when placed around the head of an individual can identify brain signals. and certian patterns. **If I were to walk up to you off the street, put a knife to your back and start cutting unless you told me where your “alien spaceship” was I’m pretty sure I could get you to tell me all about it immediately.** EVEN though you DON’T have a spaceship! All torture does is get people to talk, to say anything, but usually they do say things to make the pain stop… \*\*Does torture happen? Yes. \*\*But rarely does it happen by the CIA or other agencies looking to gather credible information. If you do research you’ll see that most of the torture allegations are against grunts (regular soliders) who are often angry because their friend or somebody they know was killed by the enemy and it feels good to rough up the guy, it feels good to exact revenge. Torture is not a crediable way to gather any evidence, (unless of course it’s on a tv series) ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2005, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-a-better-human-being-than-pres-bush-and-dick-cheney-because-i-oppose-torture/335917/15 "2005-12-16T16:35:11Z")
> [@Scott Plaid](#): > > “Madam, we have already decided what kind of women you are. Now we are murely hagling over the price.” I think that falls into the salami slicing category. And some women will slice a salami for a VERY reasonable price … ---
**Author:** ![AskNott](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asknott/32/5790_2.png) [@AskNott](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AskNott)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2005, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-a-better-human-being-than-pres-bush-and-dick-cheney-because-i-oppose-torture/335917/16 "2005-12-16T16:35:31Z")
**Thudlow Boink,** can you provide us with a few examples of this “ticking time bomb” scenario of yours that seems to accompany most pro-torture arguments? So far, no torture fan I’ve read about can provide any concrete examples from the past century. Perhaps you can enlighten me ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2005, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-a-better-human-being-than-pres-bush-and-dick-cheney-because-i-oppose-torture/335917/17 "2005-12-16T16:58:06Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > I’m completely OK with sleep and food deprivation as an interrogation tactic. Should I “off” myself? Depends on how much sleep and food deprivation you’re talking about. I believe that both can kill or severely injure if carried to extremes. (I’m not sure about sleep deprivation’s effects in extremis.) If you’re willing to take someone to the point of death with these techniques, maybe you should get that hara-kiri knife sharpened. Now, if you’re talking the equivalent of a college cram session weekend of sleep deprivation, or two weeks on a fat farm, that’s not so bad. But aren’t we just doing a more sophisticated species of salami-slicing here? > [@](#): > > Also, can we have a cite that Bush and/or Cheney approve of pulling out fingernails? I’m not sure if they have specifically approved of fingernail pulling, but they’ve definitely enabled a system whereby men have been tortured to death. Fingernail pulling is a moot point. I think they’re still going with the old Gonzalez definion of torute – pain like that which would be experienced via death or organ failure. Seems pretty consistent with what human rights groups and victims are reporting. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2005, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-a-better-human-being-than-pres-bush-and-dick-cheney-because-i-oppose-torture/335917/18 "2005-12-16T17:19:15Z")
> [@Evil Captor](#): > > Depends on how much sleep and food deprivation you’re talking about. I believe that both can kill or severely injure if carried to extremes. (I’m not sure about sleep deprivation’s effects in extremis.) If you’re willing to take someone to the point of death with these techniques, maybe you should get that hara-kiri knife sharpened. Now, if you’re talking the equivalent of a college cram session weekend of sleep deprivation, or two weeks on a fat farm, that’s not so bad. But aren’t we just doing a more sophisticated species of salami-slicing here? I’m talking about using food as a reward process. Give us some useful information and you get some yummy treates. Don’t give us anything, and you get “gruel”. If I don’t have to “off” myself as long as I don’t condone taking these techniques to the death, then that’s a meaningless definition of torture. As for sleep deprivation, I’m unsure where I’d draw the limit. But for non-POW status prisoners, I’d be willing to go pretty far. POWs, of course, get much better treatment. In fact, you’re not allowed any retribution at all if a POW refues to give you more information than Name/Rank/Serial No. > [@](#): > > I’m not sure if they have specifically approved of fingernail pulling… So, are you withdrawing that statement? You claimed those were approved techniques. I’d like a clear yes or no answer (and ve have ways of getting zat info out of you… 🙂 ). ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2005, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-a-better-human-being-than-pres-bush-and-dick-cheney-because-i-oppose-torture/335917/19 "2005-12-16T17:43:38Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace But for non-POW status prisoners, I’d be willing to go pretty far. POWs, of course, get much better treatment. In fact, you’re not allowed any retribution at all if a POW refues to give you more information than Name/Rank/Serial No.[/quote] There’s the rub, isn’t it? There is no such thing as a “non-POW,” non-criminal which allows you to ignore all the rules. The White House has attempted to invent a new category of prisoner completely out of its ass. A category which has absolutely no process or definition and which allows the prisoner no forum or procedure for proving his innocence. Essentially, you’re sayng that it’s ok to torture POWs if you make up a different word to call them. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2005, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-a-better-human-being-than-pres-bush-and-dick-cheney-because-i-oppose-torture/335917/20 "2005-12-16T17:52:18Z")
We already had “discussions” about the definition of torture, just recently. Let’s not derail or deflect (for once). [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-a-better-human-being-than-pres-bush-and-dick-cheney-because-i-oppose-torture/335917.md?page=2)