# I am a better human being than Pres. Bush and Dick Cheney because I oppose torture **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 16, 2005, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-a-better-human-being-than-pres-bush-and-dick-cheney-because-i-oppose-torture/335917 "2005-12-16T15:20:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2005, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-a-better-human-being-than-pres-bush-and-dick-cheney-because-i-oppose-torture/335917/21 "2005-12-16T18:01:01Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > As for sleep deprivation, I’m unsure where I’d draw the limit. But for non-POW status prisoners, I’d be willing to go pretty far. POWs, of course, get much better treatment. In fact, you’re not allowed any retribution at all if a POW refues to give you more information than Name/Rank/Serial No. You mean like the innocent civilians the Bush admin has kidnapped/ tortured ? You think that putting on a uniform makes you more deserving of human rights somehow ? Why are the civilians OK to torture ? ---
**Author:** ![ShibbOleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/848f3c/32.png) [@ShibbOleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShibbOleth)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2005, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-a-better-human-being-than-pres-bush-and-dick-cheney-because-i-oppose-torture/335917/22 "2005-12-16T18:09:50Z")
**Evil Captor** - George W Bush has accepted teh Lord Jesus Christ as his personal saviour. So then it doesn’t matter what else he does. He’ll be forgiven. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2005, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-a-better-human-being-than-pres-bush-and-dick-cheney-because-i-oppose-torture/335917/23 "2005-12-16T18:44:03Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > There’s the rub, isn’t it? There is no such thing as a “non-POW,” non-criminal which allows you to ignore all the rules. Except that I’m not advocating that we “ignore all the rules”. > [@](#): > > The White House has attempted to invent a new category of prisoner completely out of its ass. A category which has absolutely no process or definition and which allows the prisoner no forum or procedure for proving his innocence. Essentially, you’re sayng that it’s ok to torture POWs if you make up a different word to call them. I’m presenting my own views here, not those of the White House. I’m saying that I would be OK with interrogation techniques for unlawful (or illegal enemy) combatants that go beyond the Army Field Manual. I have not said that I’m OK with denying them all legal process-- in fact I’m not OK with that. Don’t confuse “disagrees with **Evil Captor** ” with “Agrees with George Bush”. There’s a \*\*lot \*\*of ground between those two positions. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2005, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-a-better-human-being-than-pres-bush-and-dick-cheney-because-i-oppose-torture/335917/24 "2005-12-16T18:47:10Z")
> [@Der Trihs](#): > > You mean like the innocent civilians the Bush admin has kidnapped/ tortured ? See my post, above, in response to **DtC**. > [@](#): > > You think that putting on a uniform makes you more deserving of human rights somehow ? It’s not what I think, that’s what the Geneva Convention says. > [@](#): > > Why are the civilians OK to torture ? It all depends on your definition of torture. There are a lot of things that you can’t do to POWs but that still don’t qualify as torture-- like treating prisoners differently depending on which ones cooperate and which ones don’t. ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2005, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-a-better-human-being-than-pres-bush-and-dick-cheney-because-i-oppose-torture/335917/25 "2005-12-16T18:47:23Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > What if someone is about to set off a nuclear bomb in Manhattan and the only way you can prevent it is by raping a baby? Is it cute? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2005, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-a-better-human-being-than-pres-bush-and-dick-cheney-because-i-oppose-torture/335917/26 "2005-12-16T19:02:29Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > Except that I’m not advocating that we “ignore all the rules”. > I’m presenting my own views here, not those of the White House. I’m saying that I would be OK with interrogation techniques for unlawful (or illegal enemy) combatants that go beyond the Army Field Manual. I have not said that I’m OK with denying them all legal process-- in fact I’m not OK with that. Don’t confuse “disagrees with **Evil Captor** ” with “Agrees with George Bush”. There’s a \*\*lot \*\*of ground between those two positions. You’re still creating an arbitrary category of “unlawful combatants.” What does that mean? How do you prove it? How can such a prisoner prove he’s NOT one? As it stands now, an “unlawful combatant” is anybody who wasn’t wearing a uniform when we attacked them. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2005, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-a-better-human-being-than-pres-bush-and-dick-cheney-because-i-oppose-torture/335917/27 "2005-12-16T19:17:16Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > I’m completely OK with sleep and food deprivation as an interrogation tactic. Should I “off” myself? Yes. As i mentionned in another recent thread, people supporting this kind of stuff should watch “The Confession” about the Prague trials. They might come to rethink their opinion about sleep deprivation, stress position, food deprivation, etc… being no big deal. Again, as I mentionned previously, it’s the old fahionned solid beating which is no big deal by comparison with these methods. It’s not about getting someone slightly tired or hungry, you know… ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2005, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-a-better-human-being-than-pres-bush-and-dick-cheney-because-i-oppose-torture/335917/28 "2005-12-16T19:23:31Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > You’re still creating an arbitrary category of “unlawful combatants.” What does that mean? How do you prove it? How can such a prisoner prove he’s NOT one? It’s not arbitrary, and I didn’t create it nor did Bush. It’s been around for a long time, and can be found in the case _ex parte Quirin_ (1942). The GC (Article 5) tells us what to do (emphasis added): > [@](#): > > Should any doubt arise as to whether persons, having committed a belligerent act and having fallen into the hands of the enemy, belong to any of the categories enumerated in Article 4, such persons shall enjoy the protection of the present Convention until such time as their status has been determined by a competent tribunal. Note the “should any doubt” phrase. If I catch you in the US Embassy in Saudi Arabia wearing dark tights and a ski mask, carrying a machine gun, I don’t think there’s any doubt about your status. Stil, it leaves a lot of wiggle room. What is a “competent tribunal”, for instance? > [@](#): > > As it stands now, an “unlawful combatant” is anybody who wasn’t wearing a uniform when we attacked them. Pretty much. I hope you’re not expecting me to defend that. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2005, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-a-better-human-being-than-pres-bush-and-dick-cheney-because-i-oppose-torture/335917/29 "2005-12-16T19:23:32Z")
> [@micahjn](#): > > Can you define torture so we’re all on the same page? Any kind of extrajudicial punishment in the form of physical, mental, or emotional pain or discomfort, including the withholding of sustenance or medical care or threat of extrajudicial punishment against one’s self or others or the intentional fear of such extrajudicial punishment. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2005, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-a-better-human-being-than-pres-bush-and-dick-cheney-because-i-oppose-torture/335917/30 "2005-12-16T19:26:38Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > Yes. I know that English isn’t your first language, so perhaps you don’t know that “off” is American slang for “kill” in that context. I’m sure you’ll want to retract your statement after learning that. Right? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2005, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-a-better-human-being-than-pres-bush-and-dick-cheney-because-i-oppose-torture/335917/31 "2005-12-16T19:29:55Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > If I catch you in the US Embassy in Saudi Arabia wearing dark tights and a ski mask, carrying a machine gun, I don’t think there’s any doubt about your status. I didn’t mean you, **DtC** , since you are a US citizen. Let’s assume that “you” in the above sentence is a non-US citizen. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2005, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-a-better-human-being-than-pres-bush-and-dick-cheney-because-i-oppose-torture/335917/32 "2005-12-16T19:31:40Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > I’m talking about using food as a reward process. Give us some useful information and you get some yummy treates. Don’t give us anything, and you get “gruel”. If I don’t have to “off” myself as long as I don’t condone taking these techniques to the death, then that’s a meaningless definition of torture. That’s not torture – so far as I know, there’s no standard for tastiness for prisoner’s food. In fact, I recall a warden in a prison a few years ago who served recalcitrant prisoners an unappetizing, tasteless “meal loaf” when they got out of line. I didn’t think of it as torture, I don’t think anyone would. > [@](#): > > As for sleep deprivation, I’m unsure where I’d draw the limit. Me, neither. ISTM that it can have enough of an effect on a person’s psyche to constitute torture, so I guess I’d rule it out on general principles. > [@](#): > > But for non-POW status prisoners, I’d be willing to go pretty far. POWs, of course, get much better treatment. In fact, you’re not allowed any retribution at all if a POW refues to give you more information than Name/Rank/Serial No. Yeah, but I’m not talking law, I’m talking ethics. I’m a better human being than you because I don’t believe you can put people through any amount of shit just because they didn’t happen to be wearing a uniform when you captured them. > [@](#): > > So, are you withdrawing that statement? You claimed those were approved techniques. I’d like a clear yes or no answer (and ve have ways of getting zat info out of you… 🙂 ). I would consider fingernail pulling torture. I am not certain that the Bush Admin. is doing it, but given that people are being tortured TO DEATH while in their custody, it strikes me as a moot point – a detour, as it were. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2005, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-a-better-human-being-than-pres-bush-and-dick-cheney-because-i-oppose-torture/335917/33 "2005-12-16T19:37:38Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > Don’t confuse “disagrees with **Evil Captor** ” with “Agrees with George Bush”. There’s a \*\*lot \*\*of ground between those two positions. That’s a fair statement. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2005, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-a-better-human-being-than-pres-bush-and-dick-cheney-because-i-oppose-torture/335917/34 "2005-12-16T20:02:55Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > As for sleep deprivation, I’m unsure where I’d draw the limit. But for non-POW status prisoners, I’d be willing to go pretty far. > . So, these non-POW prisonners presumably deserve or require such a harsh treatment, according to you. Could you tell us why exactly? Because it has been determined with certainty that they were very evil criminals? Or because they have been suspected by unknown agents of unknown crimes, rounded up by unknown people in unknown circumstances, to be detained for unknown reasons in unknown places where they’ll be interrogated using unknown methods to get unknown informations about unknown supected plots until some unknown official will determine on an unknown basis that they’ve nothing or nothing more to tell and can face an unknown fate. That’s pretty convincing… You should try someday to live in free country where people usually believe in liberty and individual rights. It should be a very enlightening experience to you. Not everybody is accustomed to give a pass to Stalinian methods, you know. Not yet, at least. But you and many others are making a goo job at rehabilitating these methods, I must admit. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2005, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-a-better-human-being-than-pres-bush-and-dick-cheney-because-i-oppose-torture/335917/35 "2005-12-16T20:03:40Z")
> [@Evil Captor](#): > > Yeah, but I’m not talking law, I’m talking ethics. I’m a better human being than you because I don’t believe you can put people through any amount of shit just because they didn’t happen to be wearing a uniform when you captured them. You’re a different human being. Doesn’t make you better. It might make you worse. > [@](#): > > I would consider fingernail pulling torture. I am not certain that the Bush Admin. is doing it, but given that people are being tortured TO DEATH while in their custody, it strikes me as a moot point – a detour, as it were. Then you shouldn’t have brought it up. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2005, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-a-better-human-being-than-pres-bush-and-dick-cheney-because-i-oppose-torture/335917/36 "2005-12-16T20:05:33Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > So, these non-POW prisonners presumably deserve or require such a harsh treatment, according to you. Could you tell us why exactly? Because it has been determined with certainty that they were very evil criminals? > > Or because they have been suspected by unknown agents of unknown crimes, rounded up by unknown people in unknown circumstances, to be detained for unknown reasons in unknown places where they’ll be interrogated using unknown methods to get unknown informations about unknown supected plots until some unknown official will determine on an unknown basis that they’ve nothing or nothing more to tell and can face an unknown fate. > > That’s pretty convincing… > You should try someday to live in free country where people usually believe in liberty and individual rights. It should be a very enlightening experience to you. Not everybody is accustomed to give a pass to Stalinian methods, you know. Not yet, at least. > > But you and many others are making a goo job at rehabilitating these methods, I must admit. If you want to adress my specific arguments, I’d be happy to debate this with you. As it is, there’s too much straw in that post for me to see where you’ve done that. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2005, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-a-better-human-being-than-pres-bush-and-dick-cheney-because-i-oppose-torture/335917/37 "2005-12-16T20:09:16Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > I know that English isn’t your first language, so perhaps you don’t know that “off” is American slang for “kill” in that context. I’m sure you’ll want to retract your statement after learning that. Right? **clairobsur** : I’m still waiting for your response to this post (in reference to the “Yes” in your post #27). ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2005, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-a-better-human-being-than-pres-bush-and-dick-cheney-because-i-oppose-torture/335917/38 "2005-12-16T20:13:17Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > . I have not said that I’m OK with denying them all legal process-- in fact I’m not OK with that. Don’t confuse “disagrees with **Evil Captor** ” with “Agrees with George Bush”. There’s a \*\*lot \*\*of ground between those two positions. OK. So, I assume these prisonners after having been legally arrested according to warrant based on sufficient evidences, should be made aware of the charges levied against them, should be advised by a lawyer, and then their cases should be brought up to a public court, which, after hearing the case, if it is proven beyond the shadow of a doubt that they have informations of extreme importance, would allow the use of torture on them, (torture that would include methods strictly defined by the new “torture code” to be voted by the legislative body), under the supervision of observers, and with the possibility to bring charge against the torturers if they don’t follow the approved torture regulations? Did I get it right? ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2005, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-a-better-human-being-than-pres-bush-and-dick-cheney-because-i-oppose-torture/335917/39 "2005-12-16T20:13:18Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > But for non-POW status prisoners, I’d be willing to go pretty far. The British shared your opinion with regard to IRA suspects. That didn’t stop many bombings and killings over 30 years. In fact it helped radicalise a large part of the NI and the Republic civilian population against the state. They also managed to get confessions from innocent people like the Birmingham Six and the Guilford Four who all spent over a decade in prison before justice was finally done and they were released. Not only is it morally abhorrent it is also unproductive and potentially damaging in the long run. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2005, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-a-better-human-being-than-pres-bush-and-dick-cheney-because-i-oppose-torture/335917/40 "2005-12-16T20:21:11Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > I know that English isn’t your first language, so perhaps you don’t know that “off” is American slang for “kill” in that context. I’m sure you’ll want to retract your statement after learning that. Right? I knew it, but didn’t pay attention. I meant that you should consider yourself an evil person. Forget about the terrorists. The real danger for our democratic countries are people thinking like you. You’re following the same logic that thousands before you who were ready to bring their support to oppressive regimes. You’re undermining the values we’re cherishing. Values that took centuries to establish and defend at great cost. Terrorists might threaten or harm us. You’re trying to destroy us from within. You’re betraying democracy and freedom. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-a-better-human-being-than-pres-bush-and-dick-cheney-because-i-oppose-torture/335917.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-a-better-human-being-than-pres-bush-and-dick-cheney-because-i-oppose-torture/335917.md?page=3)