# I am a better human being than Pres. Bush and Dick Cheney because I oppose torture **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 16, 2005, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-a-better-human-being-than-pres-bush-and-dick-cheney-because-i-oppose-torture/335917 "2005-12-16T15:20:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 4\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2005, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-a-better-human-being-than-pres-bush-and-dick-cheney-because-i-oppose-torture/335917/121 "2005-12-20T00:15:40Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > Hmmm, I was going from memory. I remember Rumsfeld saying this about a year ago. If I recall correctly he didn’t come out and say they’d be treated as POWs, he claimed they weren’t POWs, just that their treatment would be the same as if they were POWs, or some such. The difference between treating someone as a POW and treating them the same as if they were POWs was lost on me. If they were treated as POWs, they couldn’t be interrogated with any vigor. That’s the difference. > [@](#): > > I suppose the point was that the administration claimed that these guys weren’t enemy soldiers but criminal terrorists. The trouble with this contention is that if they are criminal terrorists you’d have to charge them with something. Not according to the administration. They didn’t even want to charge Jose Padilla, and he is a US citizen. The administration considers many of them to be illegal combatants, and says they can hold them indefinitely. I think this is still be worked out thru the courts. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2005, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-a-better-human-being-than-pres-bush-and-dick-cheney-because-i-oppose-torture/335917/122 "2005-12-20T00:37:05Z")
Rumsfeld on Gitmo detainees: > [@](#): > > [Rumsfeld: No POW status for detainees](http://www.usatoday.com/news/sept11/2002/01/27/detainees.htm) > > GUANTANAMO BAY NAVAL STATION, Cuba — Spurning pressure from human rights groups and some European allies, Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld said Sunday that the 158 captives held on this U.S. military base do not qualify for prisoner-of-war status. > > “They are not POWs. They will not be determined to be POWs,” Rumsfeld said during his first visit to Camp X-Ray in southeast Cuba. > > \ > > As “unlawful combatants,” the captives could be interrogated more extensively than they could be as prisoners of war. ---
**Author:** ![Henry-Finland](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e99b99/32.png) [@Henry-Finland](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Henry-Finland)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2005, 6:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-a-better-human-being-than-pres-bush-and-dick-cheney-because-i-oppose-torture/335917/123 "2005-12-20T06:29:51Z")
[http://news.ft.com/cms/s/b81c7212-70d2-11da-89d3-0000779e2340.html](http://news.ft.com/cms/s/b81c7212-70d2-11da-89d3-0000779e2340.html) **Financial Times:** > [@](#): > > **US law would let torture be used for evidence** > > \*\*Congress could approve this week legislation that would permit indefinite detention of prisoners at Guantánamo Bay based on evidence obtained through torture. \*\* > > The law would allow military judges at Guantánamo to consider whether evidence obtained by coercive methods was admissible in determining whether a prisoner should be classified as an “enemy combatant”. > [@](#): > > “The most dramatic story is that the same legislation that passes the McCain amendment – which is this historic bill on torture – has this other provision, which undercuts it in two ways,” said Jennifer Daskal, US advocacy director for Human Rights Watch. > > **“It implicitly allows the use of evidence that is obtained through torture for the first time ever in American history.** [And] it cuts off one of the best enforcement and monitoring mechanisms of the McCain amendment because it prohibits detainees from ever bringing any suit alleging that they have been tortured or abused.” > > Under the new rules, detainees could appeal to US courts only after they had been declared enemy combatants, or after having been sentenced to death or more than 10 years’ imprisonment. * * * According to the laws, the sarcastic story here under, is more or less possible. So, even if partly joking, I am not laughing. **Imagine this:** - You have lent too many books about Arabic culture in a public library. - The three-lettter-guys comes and knocks on your door. - You take your tooth-brush. - You find yourself in some odd country. - You get tortured by the old books of the Popes, some 500 year old books. - You confess that you have been a part of a conspiracy, aiming to force the Koran down the Bushista-trios throaths, 128 pages each; George, Dick and Rummy. - You find yourself in Guantamo. - You get convicted, based on your confession. Nobody knows who the torturer was, because all the questions were in Latin. You are not even sure in what country you were. Also all answers were in Latin and confirmed with something you tried to scribble down as your signature. Epilog: - Rummy congratulates himself: “Now even the torture can be made cheaper! Outsourcing, that is the tune of today!” * * * **The library thingy above:** > [@](#): > > Dr. Williams said he had been planning to offer a course on terrorism next semester, but is reconsidering, because it might put his students at risk. “I shudder to think of all the students I’ve had monitoring al-Qaeda Web sites, what the government must think of that,” he said. “Mao Tse-Tung is completely harmless.” [http://www.southcoasttoday.com/daily/12-05/12-17-05/a09lo650.htm](http://www.southcoasttoday.com/daily/12-05/12-17-05/a09lo650.htm) Henry ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2005, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-a-better-human-being-than-pres-bush-and-dick-cheney-because-i-oppose-torture/335917/124 "2005-12-20T15:29:50Z")
> [@Henry-Finland](#): > > US law would let torture be used for evidence I am a better citizen than Rummy or Dubya because I know better than this kind of shit. What’s next? Are we going to have to fight to keep actual slavery from being re-legalized? How far back are those shit-eating sons-of-bitches going to take us? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-a-better-human-being-than-pres-bush-and-dick-cheney-because-i-oppose-torture/335917.md?page=6)