# I am a proud middle of the roader and damn proud of it **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [November 12, 2019, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-a-proud-middle-of-the-roader-and-damn-proud-of-it/843316 "2019-11-12T04:44:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2019, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-a-proud-middle-of-the-roader-and-damn-proud-of-it/843316/121 "2019-11-13T15:30:44Z")
> [@Intergalactic\_Gladiator](#): > > Like one of those militant pacifists, eh? A couple old friends of mine often riff about their being “centrofascists”, going back and forth with slogans like “You \*\*must \*\*agree that all sides of any issue are equally valid, under pain of death !” ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2019, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-a-proud-middle-of-the-roader-and-damn-proud-of-it/843316/122 "2019-11-13T15:39:07Z")
> [@Sterling\_Archer](#): > > Also I too, get frustrated with the “purity police” and I think they do way more harm than good. Know who else just spoke out against the purity police? Barack Obama. Not exactly a centrist. Um, yes he very much is ? At the very least, he’s at the right fringe of the left. But then again it’s a cliché at this point that American politics aren’t a left vs right thing so much as right vs slightly\_less\_right one. ---
**Author:** ![Sterling\_Archer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Sterling\_Archer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sterling_Archer)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2019, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-a-proud-middle-of-the-roader-and-damn-proud-of-it/843316/123 "2019-11-13T16:12:18Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Um, yes he very much is ? At the very least, he’s at the right fringe of the left. > > But then again it’s a cliché at this point that American politics aren’t a left vs right thing so much as right vs slightly\_less\_right one. We may have a semantics difference in how we decide what really is the center then. If Obama is a centrist, then I’m not sure what your definition is. Obama is much more accepted by the left than the right, so how can he be center? The right hates his guts. You can argue about his ideology being somewhere close to the middle, but I doubt anyone on the right would agree with that. Since we’re never going to agree on an ideological center, I think the only way to define the center is to look at the positions of those who are still considered party members, but lean most toward the other party. People like Manchin and Murkowski, or Doug Jones. Does Obama fit with them? Nah, he’s a ways left of that. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2019, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-a-proud-middle-of-the-roader-and-damn-proud-of-it/843316/124 "2019-11-13T16:18:05Z")
> [@Sterling\_Archer](#): > > We may have a semantics difference in how we decide what really is the center then. If Obama is a centrist, then I’m not sure what your definition is. Obama is much more accepted by the left than the right, so how can he be center? The right hates his guts. You can argue about his ideology being somewhere close to the middle, but I doubt anyone on the right would agree with that. Since we’re never going to agree on an ideological center, I think the only way to define the center is to look at the positions of those who are still considered party members, but lean most toward the other party. People like Manchin and Murkowski, or Doug Jones. Does Obama fit with them? Nah, he’s a ways left of that. Well, he agreed to lower spending. He waged wars, deported lots of immigrants. He didn’t raise tariffs. He presided over a reduced deficit. He didn’t pass, or really even try to pass any real gun control legislation. He tried to appoint Merrick Garland, a moderate justice as agreed by the Republicans, to the Supreme Court. These are all conservative or moderate situations. He also increased some taxes on the wealthy and got Obamacare passed, which was an attempt at a market-based solution to our health system issues, but, sure, left of center here in the USA. If this is off-topic, I apologize for the hijack. ---
**Author:** ![Sterling\_Archer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Sterling\_Archer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sterling_Archer)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2019, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-a-proud-middle-of-the-roader-and-damn-proud-of-it/843316/125 "2019-11-13T16:29:07Z")
In a rational world, that would reflect a centrist position. But the right has gone so extreme and conspiracy-theory-laden, they consider those positions to be a betrayal of American values. So are we talking about where the center should be? Or where it actually is? I think that’s the discrepancy here. When one party deals in reality, and the other is in fantasyland, in order to be in the center, you have to believe about half of the crazypants stuff. ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2019, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-a-proud-middle-of-the-roader-and-damn-proud-of-it/843316/126 "2019-11-13T16:32:38Z")
Center does not move to the right just because white power got installed in the white house. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2019, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-a-proud-middle-of-the-roader-and-damn-proud-of-it/843316/127 "2019-11-13T16:37:26Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > The Democratic party is a rather disorganized, heterogenous group, but that’s a feature, not a bug. On immigration, the common thread is humane treatment; avoiding separation of families; avoiding the Trump policy of deliberately harming children for deterrent purposes; a path to citizenship/legal residency for long-time non-violent undocumented migrants; and legalization of DACA/Dreamers. Some Democrats go a lot further than this, but almost all of them are for all these policies. I’m not at all disagreeing with the policies, but what I’m saying is that a lot of people out there view it as a bug, not a feature. I have no proof, but my suspicion is that your average relatively uninformed voter who isn’t firmly in either camp probably can’t really articulate whether or not the Green New Deal is an official Democratic thing, or AOC’s thing. Nor do they probably know what the Democratic party’s health care position is either- is it Medicare-For-All, is it Obamacare, is it expanded Obamacare, is it single-payer UHC, or something else entirely? Hell, I’m not entirely uninformed, and I can’t say that I have a good idea what it is, other than something more collective than the status quo. I also have a feeling that this sort of uncertainty isn’t a good thing when it comes time for people to pick which candidate they want. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2019, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-a-proud-middle-of-the-roader-and-damn-proud-of-it/843316/128 "2019-11-13T16:49:44Z")
> [@bump](#): > > I’m not at all disagreeing with the policies, but what I’m saying is that a lot of people out there view it as a bug, not a feature. > > I have no proof, but my suspicion is that your average relatively uninformed voter who isn’t firmly in either camp probably can’t really articulate whether or not the Green New Deal is an official Democratic thing, or AOC’s thing. Nor do they probably know what the Democratic party’s health care position is either- is it Medicare-For-All, is it Obamacare, is it expanded Obamacare, is it single-payer UHC, or something else entirely? Hell, I’m not entirely uninformed, and I can’t say that I have a good idea what it is, other than something more collective than the status quo. > > I also have a feeling that this sort of uncertainty isn’t a good thing when it comes time for people to pick which candidate they want. The presidential primary process is the main part of how this is determined. Chances are, Warren’s or Biden’s or Sanders’ or someone else’s preferred policies for health care, immigration, the environment, the Green New Deal (or not), etc., will become the “official Democratic party policy” on those issues – through election day, at the very least, and through the next 4-8 years if the Democrats win. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2019, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-a-proud-middle-of-the-roader-and-damn-proud-of-it/843316/129 "2019-11-13T16:55:53Z")
> [@Sterling\_Archer](#): > > We may have a semantics difference in how we decide what really is the center then. If Obama is a centrist, then I’m not sure what your definition is. Obama is much more accepted by the left than the right, so how can he be center? The right hates his guts. I mean he’s very close to the center in the wider, international context of left/right ideology and philosophy. Within the specific confines of US political discourse he \*seems \*left, but that’s a question of representations and Overton windows and all that, not an “objective” standpoint (to the extent that such a thing exists) ; hence the right vs slightly-less-right cliché. Even “hard left radicals !!!” like Bernie Sanders or AOC are hardly revolutionaries or anywhere near the general vicinity of, well, _[radicalism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_radicalism)_ or radical socialism or whatever else nonsense they’re labeled as by Republicans or less progressive Democrats. > [@](#): > > You can argue about his ideology being somewhere close to the middle, but I doubt anyone on the right would agree with that. Sure, but then the current (or at least, the vocal) American right is profoundly blinkered about its own representations, to say nothing of that of their political opponents, so that’s not saying much :D. I mean, e.g. their idolizing Reagan as a paragonistic defender of star-spangled freedom domestic and foreign, when his administration was providing direct support to fascist dictators and paramilitary death squads makes precious little sense, when it comes right down to it. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2019, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-a-proud-middle-of-the-roader-and-damn-proud-of-it/843316/130 "2019-11-13T17:30:40Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > … He didn’t pass, or really even try to pass any real gun control legislation. … I don’t know exactly how you’re parsing “really even try”, but he did _try_ to pass gun control legislation. [CNN - Obama announces 23 executive actions, asks Congress to pass gun laws](http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2013/01/16/obama-to-announce-gun-control-proposals-shortly/) ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2019, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-a-proud-middle-of-the-roader-and-damn-proud-of-it/843316/131 "2019-11-13T18:00:12Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > [CNN - Obama announces 23 executive actions, asks Congress to pass gun laws](http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2013/01/16/obama-to-announce-gun-control-proposals-shortly/) Less than 30 days after Sandy Hook. ---
**Author:** ![Sterling\_Archer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Sterling\_Archer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sterling_Archer)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2019, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-a-proud-middle-of-the-roader-and-damn-proud-of-it/843316/132 "2019-11-13T18:08:50Z")
> [@bobot](#): > > Center does not move to the right just because white power got installed in the white house. When virtually all of the people who call themselves “the right” agree with the extremist position in the WH, then I would argue that the center has shifted. This is why I think the center is almost non-existent in today’s politics. You’re either on board the Trump train or you’re not. When one party has devoted themselves wholeheartedly to conspiracy theories, it’s very hard to find a middle that makes logical sense. I think there actually is a middle out there, but it’s defined mostly by ignorance. It’s the people who are barely paying attention. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2019, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-a-proud-middle-of-the-roader-and-damn-proud-of-it/843316/133 "2019-11-13T18:35:20Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I don’t know exactly how you’re parsing “really even try”, but he did _try_ to pass gun control legislation. > > [CNN - Obama announces 23 executive actions, asks Congress to pass gun laws](http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2013/01/16/obama-to-announce-gun-control-proposals-shortly/) I had in mind the kind of full-court press that they did with the Affordable Care Act. Asking congress to pass some gun laws is different than bringing it up all the time, pressing congress in general and individual congressmen and women, putting direct political pressure, etc. So, he really tried to pass health care reform (he succeeded) and he made a token effort to pass gun laws in the wake of a horrific school shooting, and then basically let it drop again. This is probably different from how a Bloomberg administration, for example, may handle gun laws, because he’s really a fan of gun control, funds gun control organizations, etc. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2019, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-a-proud-middle-of-the-roader-and-damn-proud-of-it/843316/134 "2019-11-13T19:03:19Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > I had in mind the kind of full-court press that they did with the Affordable Care Act. Asking congress to pass some gun laws is different than bringing it up all the time, pressing congress in general and individual congressmen and women, putting direct political pressure, etc. So, he really tried to pass health care reform (he succeeded) and he made a token effort to pass gun laws in the wake of a horrific school shooting, and then basically let it drop again. > > This is probably different from how a Bloomberg administration, for example, may handle gun laws, because he’s really a fan of gun control, funds gun control organizations, etc. That’s fair. Obama made modest efforts to pass gun control legislation and sought ways he could curtail gun rights through executive actions. I think it was more than a “token” effort (for an example of a real “token” effort, you could look back to the GWB administration’s brief lip service to renewing the expired federal AWB), but it wasn’t comparable to the effort / time / money expended to pass ObamaCare. You’re almost certainly correct that his efforts would probably be exceeded by a hypothetical President Bloomberg or President O’Rourke (although this last one seems to not be in the cards). ---
**Author:** ![BrianDime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ad7895/32.png) [@BrianDime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrianDime)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2019, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-a-proud-middle-of-the-roader-and-damn-proud-of-it/843316/135 "2019-11-13T19:26:45Z")
I think, there are probably more centrists that actually have more left or more right views, but understand that there probably needs to be compromise and are willing to accept a compromise that gives them some of the things they are concerned about, even if it doesn’t give them everything they wanted. I’m not making the case that some racism is OK as long as there is also some equality, but I am saying that maybe you can have environmental protections AND a farm bill, or something like that, instead of insisting on “it’s my way or the highway”. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2019, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-a-proud-middle-of-the-roader-and-damn-proud-of-it/843316/136 "2019-11-13T19:27:49Z")
> [@Sterling\_Archer](#): > > When virtually all of the people who call themselves “the right” agree with the extremist position in the WH, then I would argue that the center has shifted. The “center” is a human construct, and human beings populate the ENTIRE planet. When the USA physically separates from the rest of the planet, THAT is when they (we) will have earned the right to have a “center” that applies solely to the USA. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2019, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-a-proud-middle-of-the-roader-and-damn-proud-of-it/843316/137 "2019-11-13T19:27:52Z")
> [@Pantastic](#): > > I disagree with calling the Republican position on defense or national security ‘conservative’, or the clear implication that ‘defense and national security’ is a Republican priority. Republicans under Trump are happy to attack individual soldiers that they don’t like, even when it hinders military readiness (notably transgender troops), to damage long-standing defensive alliances (notably NATO), to drive talented military leaders out for not rubber-stamping decisions (Clinton-Bush had 2-4 secretaries of defense over 8 years, Trump has had 4 this year alone) and to allow foreign powers to interfere with our elections as long as it favors them (Russian election interference). If you are conservative on defense and national security issues in any sense of conservative that means ‘traditional’ or ‘not radical’ rather than ‘whatever the Republican party says’, then the Democrats are a way better choice. Hell yeah. The GOP hasn’t been the party of defense and national security since the first Gulf War, nearly 30 years ago. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2019, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-a-proud-middle-of-the-roader-and-damn-proud-of-it/843316/138 "2019-11-13T20:43:07Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > The “center” is a human construct, and human beings populate the ENTIRE planet. When the USA physically separates from the rest of the planet, THAT is when they (we) will have earned the right to have a “center” that applies solely to the USA. You don’t see the value of identifying / understanding the “center” of the American political spectrum in discussions about American politics? We realize that our left and right are different from the left and right you might find in Latin America or Europe or China or Russia, but we can talk about our “center” and let Latin America talk about theirs, can’t we? ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2019, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-a-proud-middle-of-the-roader-and-damn-proud-of-it/843316/139 "2019-11-13T23:13:07Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > You don’t see the value of identifying / understanding the “center” of the American political spectrum in discussions about American politics? I don’t see it. What do you think it is? ---
**Author:** ![nelliebly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nelliebly/32/5422_2.png) [@nelliebly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nelliebly)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2019, 6:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-a-proud-middle-of-the-roader-and-damn-proud-of-it/843316/140 "2019-11-14T06:01:09Z")
> [@Yankees\_1996\_Champs](#): > > Most Americans have a mix of conservative and liberal views, so you are wrong on that. > > Most Americans are not extremist partisans. > > Someone can be pro-choice, pro-LGBTQ, pro-union, but conservative on defense and national security issues. You clearly do not understand, so let’s try this again. Please follow along. It’ll save both of us time. **What it means to be moderate:** Social and political views tend to fall roughly in the middle between liberal views and Republican views. **What it does NOT mean to be moderate** : holding some leftist beliefs and some radically right beliefs and averaging them together. **Here’s an example** : **far left beliefs** : hates elite one-percenters; against monogamy; promotes hard drugs **far right beliefs** : white supremacy Those were Charles Manson’s views. Want to average them together and call _him_ a moderate? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-a-proud-middle-of-the-roader-and-damn-proud-of-it/843316.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-a-proud-middle-of-the-roader-and-damn-proud-of-it/843316.md?page=8)