# I am in despair **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 6, 2002, 7:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-in-despair/135521 "2002-11-06T07:53:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2002, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-in-despair/135521/141 "2002-11-09T14:34:55Z")
I _do_, in fact, blame the Dem leadership in some degree for caving in. I also understand it. Pounding the war drum always works. Always. If the Democrat leadership had firmly stood against the war with Iraq, they would have been clobbered far worse. But at least it would have been a fight worth having. **Anth** , aren’t you the least bit suspicious? Even the tiniest bit? After 11 years of Saddam bin Laden sitting on his hands while being slapped around by the US, suddenly just before the election he becomes an unbearable threat? A terrifying threat that he wasn’t two years ago? One year ago? You do recall hearing that line about “bringing out a new product line in August”, don’t you? You do remember Mr. Rove’s exhortation to push the war at every opportunity? And what became of “Priority Number One”, Osama…Osama Ben…oh, whats his face, you know the guy, that Bush was relentlessly committed to getting, nothing else was gonna get in the way? How does this square with your demand for “intellectual honesty”? ---
**Author:** ![lucwarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e19adc/32.png) [@lucwarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lucwarm)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2002, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-in-despair/135521/142 "2002-11-09T14:49:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Anthracite \* > \*\* > > The fact that you persistently refuse to do so shows your blind, hateful, irrational partisanship. In fact, it is nothing more than the rhetoric of Pure Hate. > > \*\* Yeah, a lot of folks are like psycho-fans for some sports team. Kinda reminds me of when I used to go to baseball games; every time a call went against my team we’d chant “Bullshit bullshit.” Of course our team could do absolutely no wrong at all. (And to be fair, some Republicans have this attitude too.) ---
**Author:** ![lucwarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e19adc/32.png) [@lucwarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lucwarm)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2002, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-in-despair/135521/143 "2002-11-09T15:11:44Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by elucidator \* > \*\* > **Anth** , aren’t you the least bit suspicious? Even the tiniest bit? After 11 years of Saddam bin Laden sitting on his hands while being slapped around by the US, suddenly just before the election he becomes an unbearable threat? A terrifying threat that he wasn’t two years ago? One year ago? > > \*\* Sorry to keep butting in, but let’s face reality: Every leader is always looking for a nice little war to get involved in. Keep in mind that all these presidents are fairly corrupt and Machiavellian. (well, maybe not Jimmy Carter.) Anyway, I hope that you’re just as suspicious of Bill Clinton’s little adventures. For what it’s worth, I think that military action against Iraq is probably a good idea at this point. ---
**Author:** ![DoctorJ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doctorj/32/2904_2.png) [@DoctorJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DoctorJ)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2002, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-in-despair/135521/144 "2002-11-09T16:20:33Z")
> [@](#): > > So, your argument is that Democrats suck, but they don’t suck as much as the Republicans? I don’t know about **Stoid** , but this is precisely my position. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2002, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-in-despair/135521/145 "2002-11-09T16:45:22Z")
Don’t blame me, I voted for Kodos. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2002, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-in-despair/135521/146 "2002-11-09T17:33:29Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by elucidator \* > \*\*I _do_, in fact, blame the Dem leadership in some degree for caving in. I also understand it. Pounding the war drum always works. Always. If the Democrat leadership had firmly stood against the war with Iraq, they would have been clobbered far worse. But at least it would have been a fight worth having. > > **Anth** , aren’t you the least bit suspicious? Even the tiniest bit? After 11 years of Saddam bin Laden sitting on his hands while being slapped around by the US, suddenly just before the election he becomes an unbearable threat? A terrifying threat that he wasn’t two years ago? One year ago? > > You do recall hearing that line about “bringing out a new product line in August”, don’t you? You do remember Mr. Rove’s exhortation to push the war at every opportunity? And what became of “Priority Number One”, Osama…Osama Ben…oh, whats his face, you know the guy, that Bush was relentlessly committed to getting, nothing else was gonna get in the way? > > How does this square with your demand for “intellectual honesty”? \*\* X2, bubelah. But one other tiny little thing… the Dems would never have come up with this bullshit on their own. They were just doing their usual nauseating little submissive crap. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2002, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-in-despair/135521/147 "2002-11-09T17:46:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by lucwarm \* > \*\* > For what it’s worth, I think that military action against Iraq is probably a good idea at this point. \*\* And what point would that be, exactly? The point where Koko has been pounding on it for so long you are tired of hearing about it, so what the fuck let’s go to war? What has changed, luc? Can you define that clearly for me, because I ain’t seen it yet. “This point” is no different that “that point” 2 years ago. Or 4. Or 8. Wait… Except for one thing. A couple of planes slammed into the World Trade Center (and the Pentagon, everyone always forgets the Pentagon) and 3000 people died. That’s the difference between “this point” and “that point”. Too bad it had less than nothing to do with Iraq or Iraq’s leadership. But hey, so what? He’s a bad guy, we’ll just work out our angst on him. (and get our hands on the second biggest oil reserves on earth in the bargain. You know, this idea’s looking better all the time!) ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2002, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-in-despair/135521/148 "2002-11-09T19:26:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Anthracite \* > \*\* In fact, it is nothing more than the rhetoric of Pure Hate. > \*\* I’m curious about this. Can you offer some examples of Pure Hate in this thread? Everyone has their own special definitions of certain things, I’d like a little more clarity on yours, please. ---
**Author:** ![lucwarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e19adc/32.png) [@lucwarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lucwarm)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2002, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-in-despair/135521/149 "2002-11-09T22:05:46Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Stoid \* > \*\* > > And what point would that be, exactly? > > The point where Koko has been pounding on it for so long you are tired of hearing about it, so what the fuck let’s go to war? > > What has changed, luc? Can you define that clearly for me, because I ain’t seen it yet. “This point” is no different that “that point” 2 years ago. Or 4. Or 8. > > Wait… Except for one thing. A couple of planes slammed into the World Trade Center (and the Pentagon, everyone always forgets the Pentagon) and 3000 people died. That’s the difference between “this point” and “that point”. > > Too bad it had less than nothing to do with Iraq or Iraq’s leadership. > \*\* It’s interesting that you kinda ignored the main point I made on focused on a “by the way” statement. But yeah, it probably would have been a good idea to take action against Iraq 8 years ago, 4 years ago, whenever. And the trade center attacks are not insigificant. They made Americans painfully aware of our vulnerability to terrorism. Let’s face reality: If Iraq’s leadership could launch a successful terrorist attack against the United States, there’s a decent chance they would, sooner or later. Of course, that doesn’t mean that Bush doesn’t have ulterior motives in pushing for war against Iraq. Anyway, I hope that you are just as suspicioius of Clinton’s little adventures. ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2002, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-in-despair/135521/150 "2002-11-09T22:06:30Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Stoid \*\*\*What has changed, luc? Can you define that clearly for me, because I ain’t seen it yet. “This point” is no different that “that point” 2 years ago. Or 4. Or 8. > > Wait… Except for one thing. A couple of planes slammed into the World Trade Center (and the Pentagon, everyone always forgets the Pentagon) and 3000 people died. That’s the difference between “this point” and “that point”.\*\* The biggest difference between now and 2 years ago is that **Two years ago is in the past. We can’t go back in time and disarm Iraq in 2000.** We _can_ disarm them them now. I agree with you that 9/11 is probably unconnected with Iraq. However, 9/11 was a horrible reminder that unthinkable things could happen, and that the risk of inaction may be greater than the risk of action. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2002, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-in-despair/135521/151 "2002-11-09T22:18:13Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by lucwarm \* > \*\* > > Let’s face reality: If Iraq’s leadership could launch a successful terrorist attack against the United States, there’s a decent chance they would, sooner or later. > > Of course, that doesn’t mean that Bush doesn’t have ulterior motives in pushing for war against Iraq. > > Anyway, I hope that you are just as suspicioius of Clinton’s little adventures. \*\* Seems to me, most every time I hear the experssion “let’s face reality” it means “let’s you agree with me”. This would appear to be no exception. By what source of divination do you peer into Saddam’s mind? Scrying by entrails? Miss Cleo? Let’s face reality, you don’t know what he’s going to do any more than I do. I’ve got a neighbor, kind of suspicious looking, could be harboring all manner of dark and evil thoughts. Got bumper stickers on his car that express completely wrong headed opinions. Maybe I ought to shoot him before he does something to me. Well, no, he hasn’t done anything to me. But he might. Think that defense will go over in court? ---
**Author:** ![lucwarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e19adc/32.png) [@lucwarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lucwarm)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2002, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-in-despair/135521/152 "2002-11-09T22:41:37Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by elucidator \* > \*\* > Seems to me, most every time I hear the experssion “let’s face reality” it means “let’s you agree with me”. This would appear to be no exception._\* Well, it means that in my humble opinion, there’s really no room for reasonable people to disagree. \*\* > [@](#): > > By what source of divination do you peer into Saddam’s mind? Scrying by entrails? Miss Cleo? \*\* I’m making reasonable guesses about what Iraq’s leadership might do by looking at what Iraq has done in the past under the same leadership. \*\* > [@](#): > > Let’s face reality, you don’t know what he’s going to do any more than I do. \*\* I don’t know for sure, which is why I said “decent chance” in my last post. \*\* > [@](#): > > I’ve got a neighbor, kind of suspicious looking, could be harboring all manner of dark and evil thoughts. Got bumper stickers on his car that express completely wrong headed opinions. Maybe I ought to shoot him before he does something to me. Well, no, he hasn’t done anything to me. But he might.\*\* To complete the analogy, lets suppose your neighbor has raped the woman living across the street; murdered the guy living next to him on the other side; and burned down the house behind him. \*\* > [@](#): > > Think that defense will go over in court? \*\* Nope, but so what? If Iraq were an individual living openly in the United States, treating his neighbors (and family) the way Iraq has treated its neighbors (and residents), there’d be no need for any individual to pre-emptively shoot him. The authorities would have long since imprisoned and possibly executed him, as they should. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2002, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-in-despair/135521/153 "2002-11-09T22:58:46Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by lucwarm \* > \*\* > To complete the analogy, lets suppose your neighbor has raped the woman living across the street; murdered the guy living next to him on the other side; and burned down the house behind him. > \*\* Actually, I think that’s not such a great analogy. Better to say he’s the guy next door who beats on his wife and kids, kicked the neigbors dog, got smacked down by the police and has confined himself to beating up on his wife and kids ever since, as cowards are wont to do. It is not at all reasonable to assume he’ll come after us. The best predictor of future behavior is past behavior. Has he ever come after us before? No. He went after Kuwait, we smacked him down, he’s had his tail between his legs ever since. Besides, no one has yet told me…WHY? WHY? What would be his goal? Getting our attention so we can hand his ass to him on a plate? And he would want this why? He’s got his life right where he likes it. Plenty of money, comfort, and power, and an endless supply of people to abuse and mistreat right in his own backyard. There is NO gain for him in coming after us on ANY level, and the charge that he is going to is…pardon me I need to yell right now nothing personal… FULL OF SHIT Ahem. Sorry. Just had a moment. Now, where was I? Oh yes… so, am I to understand that the American Way is now to crush under our bootheel anyone who doesn’t like us much who might possibly, could maybe, it’s not entirely unlikely try to hurt us in some manner sometime at some point in the future? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2002, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-in-despair/135521/154 "2002-11-09T23:07:05Z")
> [@](#): > > I agree with you that 9/11 is probably unconnected with Iraq. 9/11 is. Terrorism is not. Weapons of mass destruction are not. Threats in the Middle East are not. Violations of the cease-fire agreement are not. If the argument is “We can’t take action against any terrorist nation unless they help plot 9/11”, we see one of the reasons the Dems lost. War against Iraq is morally justified. YMMV. If it does, so will your election results. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2002, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-in-despair/135521/155 "2002-11-09T23:07:41Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Stoid \* > \*\*Actually, I think that’s not such a great analogy. > > Better to say he’s the guy next door who beats on his wife and kids, kicked the neigbors dog, got smacked down by the police and has confined himself to beating up on his wife and kids ever since, as cowards are wont to do.\*\* > [@](#): > > The total number of people killed almost certainly exceeds 300,000. Wounded and captured soldiers push the casualty total over one million, and some estimates of total casualties exceed two million. [http://www.geocities.com/persian\_gulf\_wars\_2/gulf\_war1\_cost.html](http://www.geocities.com/persian_gulf_wars_2/gulf_war1_cost.html) ---
**Author:** ![lucwarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e19adc/32.png) [@lucwarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lucwarm)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2002, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-in-despair/135521/156 "2002-11-09T23:14:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Stoid \* > \*\*It is not at all reasonable to assume he’ll come after us. \*\* Sure, but it’s reasonable to assume there’s a decent chance. \*\* > [@](#): > > The best predictor of future behavior is past behavior. Has he ever come after us before? No. He went after Kuwait, we smacked him down, he’s had his tail between his legs ever since.\*\* In case you’d forgotten, Iraq also launched missiles at Israel. \*\* > [@](#): > > Besides, no one has yet told me…WHY? WHY? What would be his goal?\*\* 1. Revenge. 2. Inflicting terror. 3. Looking good in the Arab world. > [@](#): > > \*\* He’s got his life right where he likes it. Plenty of money, comfort, and power, and an endless supply of people to abuse and mistreat right in his own backyard. \*\* So I gather you feel Israel has nothing to worry about either? Anyway, I’m getting kinda tired of this hijack. But let me ask you this - were you just as suspicious of Bill Clinton’s little adventures? ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2002, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-in-despair/135521/157 "2002-11-10T00:18:41Z")
Okay, Luc… I’ll bite. Tell us your issues with Bill and what you call his “little adventures” And to answer your question: no, I don’t think Israel has a damn thing to worry about from Iraq. Again…why? He lobbed missiles at them while we were bombing him… he aint’ done squat since, and Iraq has no real beef with Israel. Especially since she could kick his ass aorunf the block. And you didn’t answer my question, “decent chance” why? Evidence, man, evidence. Not suspicion, show me something that tells you he is going to come after the US. Having weapons is evidence of nothing. Where he uses them tells us everything, and so far, he’s pretty much used them on his own people. And while that is evil and horrible, if we are going to make it our mission to go after every evil dictator who hurts his own people, we better put a hustle on it because we have our work cut out for us. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2002, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-in-despair/135521/158 "2002-11-10T00:44:18Z")
Here, let’s flesh out the ‘neighbor’ analogy. Let’s say you have a neighbor who’s really nuts. He’s violent. He beats his childen and wife. Then one day, he starts building a big mother of a flamethrower in his backyard. When its done, suddenly he declares war on his other neighbor, and burns his house down with his flamethrower. The other neighbor fights back, and pushes the guy back into his yard, and destroys his flamethrower. Undaunted, the neighbor builds another flamethrower. When its done, he attacks another one of his neighbors, and burns down his house. This time, the whole neighborhood gets together, pushes him back into his yard, and forces him to dismantle his flamethrower. Not only that, but they post lookouts to make sure he won’t build another one. But the guy goes down into his basement, and you hear construction sounds. Occasionally, a delivery man appears with some boxes that say, “Flamethrower parts” on the side. In the meantime, this neighbor starts acting belligerant towards you. He routinely walks up to the fence line separating the two of you, and glares at you while stroking a pistol. He pays people who try to kill your friends. He’s radicalizing the neighborhood, and stirring up trouble all over the place. And he’s still building _something_ in his basement, and you can’t see what it is. But there’s a lot of evidence that it’s another damned flamethrower. So, you go to the neighborhood and say, “Hey, we’ve got to force this guy to let us see what he’s building in that basement, or else we’re going to have to force him out of the neighborhood.” That’s a more accurate assessment of the problem, if you want to continue the ‘neighbor’ analogy. ---
**Author:** ![Darwins\_Finch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darwins_finch/32/20304_2.png) [@Darwins\_Finch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darwins_Finch)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2002, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-in-despair/135521/159 "2002-11-10T01:15:50Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Stoid \* > **[…]and Iraq has no real beef with Israel.** Really? [http://www.arabicnews.com/ansub/Daily/Day/010118/2001011808.html](http://www.arabicnews.com/ansub/Daily/Day/010118/2001011808.html) > [@](#): > > Iraq’s President Saddam Hussein stressed that Iraq is ready to bombard Israel for six continuous months and this is in the first place to liberate the Arab lands, occupied by Israel in 1967. [http://216.26.163.62/2001/me\_iraq\_12\_04.html](http://216.26.163.62/2001/me_iraq_12_04.html) > [@](#): > > For the first time, Iraq has specifically threatened Israel with retaliation for any U.S.-led campaign against the regime of President Saddam Hussein. > […] > “The Palestinian cause and liberation of Jerusalem as well as campaign against Israel is a fundamental issue for Iraq, just like many other Islamic states,” Iraqi charge d’affaires in Teheran Abdul Sattar Izzeddin Rawi said. > **[Newsmax.com - Breaking news from around the globe](https://www.newsmax.com)** > > Newsmax.com reports today’s news headlines, live news stream, news videos from Americans and global readers > seeking the latest in current events, politics, U.S., world news, health, finance, and more. > [@](#): > > Dictator Saddam Hussein on Monday called on Muslims and Christians around the world to declare a jihad against Israel and what he called the “Zionist conspiracy.” [http://www.cbn.com/CBNNews/News/020823a.asp](http://www.cbn.com/CBNNews/News/020823a.asp) > [@](#): > > “They don’t care so much about the Palestinian population. Saddam Hussein already threatened to burn half of Israel, although even in Israel proper there are more than one million Arabs,” Steinitz said. Sounds to me like Saddam’s got _quite_ a beef against Israel. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2002, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-in-despair/135521/160 "2002-11-10T01:56:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by In Conceivable \* > \*\* > > [snip] > > Because they aren’t really Republicans. They are radio-active flesh eating zombies from outerspace!!! > > [/snip] > > \*\* It doesnt matter which one of us you vote for…you have a **TWO PARTY SYSTEM** MWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-in-despair/135521.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-in-despair/135521.md?page=9)