# I am in despair **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 6, 2002, 7:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-in-despair/135521 "2002-11-06T07:53:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2002, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-in-despair/135521/161 "2002-11-10T02:48:23Z")
Well, that certainly simplifies things! If they hate us, and have any weapons, or very well might have weapons, we get them before they get us! Libya next, obvioiusly. Or Iran. Maybe its not so obvious. Help me out here, guys. Who’s next? Actually, we can’t wait, now, can we? They know they aren’t safe now, they know we are in a butt-kicking mood. I mean, we can’t afford to wait, can we? Just because they’re quiet now, doesn’t mean anything, does it? Better go to war with all three, just to be on the safe side. And Syria. Syria hates us too. They’re trying to con us with that UN vote, but we know better. North Korea is different, of course. Sure, they hate us and they’ve probably got nukes, but Our Leader says they aren’t a big deal because…well, because. Sure, they’ve got nukes, have waged war on thier neighbors, commited terrorists acts but that’s different. They’re about the last commies left except for Cuba and… Cuba! Fidel hates us, doesn’t he? God only knows what he’s been up to, pretending to be quiet all these years, just like Iraq. Clear evidence of evil intent! We will never lack for enemies, of that you can be sure. Its only a question of which is next. A question that just comes down to figuring out who hates us more. ---
**Author:** ![lucwarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e19adc/32.png) [@lucwarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lucwarm)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2002, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-in-despair/135521/162 "2002-11-10T02:49:37Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Stoid \* > **Okay, Luc… I’ll bite. Tell us your issues with Bill and what you call his "little adventures"** As you know, Bill Clinton ordered various military strikes during his presidency. Do you suspect any ulterior motives for those decisions? \*\* > [@](#): > > And to answer your question: no, I don’t think Israel has a damn thing to worry about from Iraq. Again…why? He lobbed missiles at them while we were bombing him… he aint’ done squat since, and Iraq has no real beef with Israel. Especially since she could kick his ass aorunf the block.\*\* The last sentence of the above paragraph deserves special comment. See, some people engage in self-deception and do foolish things that bring ruin upon themselves and their nations. As far as Israel having nothing to fear from Iraq goes, well . . . that’s ridiculous. \*\* > [@](#): > > And you didn’t answer my question, “decent chance” why? \*\* I believe I did answer your question. Here’s what you asked: > [@](#): > > Besides, no one has yet told me…WHY? WHY? What would be his goal? And here was my answer: > [@](#): > > 1. Revenge. > > 2. Inflicting terror. > > 3. Looking good in the Arab world. As far as your new question goes, the answer is simple. Iraq has shown itself again and again to be a violent and agressive state. In recent history, it has launched more than one viscious, unprovoked attack against people outside its borders. Further, its leadership has gotta hate the U.S. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2002, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-in-despair/135521/163 "2002-11-10T03:36:49Z")
> [@](#): > > North Korea is different, of course. Sure, they hate us and they’ve probably got nukes, but Our Leader says they aren’t a big deal because… Cite, please, where Bush has ever stated or implied that North Korea is “not a big deal”. Or are you imagining things again? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2002, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-in-despair/135521/164 "2002-11-10T04:11:05Z")
Well, gosh, it could be, **Shodan**. I mean, I don’t really have a cite “no big deal”, as such. Just sort of surmised it, by the fact that he knew about it several weeks before he told the rest of us about NK’s nukes, but didn’t want to distract us from the urgent business at hand. Clearly not as important as Iraq’s program of drone aircraft with 10,000 mile ranges armed with nuclear anthrax. So, I guess I sort of assumed it wasn’t a big deal because it wasn’t important enough to talk about. Until after the vote, and all. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2002, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-in-despair/135521/165 "2002-11-10T04:45:37Z")
How about until after we have this war won, or after we abandon Clinton-era bribery and try freezing the North Koreans out of polite society for a while? I don’t know if you noticed, **elucidator** but the military has been pared back quite a lot, and we might not be in a great position to fight two wars simultaneously. Especially with a bunch of our guys at the DMZ that could be overrun in a big hurry by the huge standing North Korean army. Maybe, just maybe, Bush is worried about them and wants to avoid needless casualties, a strong possibility yet one that would elude you. ---
**Author:** ![flyboy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/4da419/32.png) [@flyboy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flyboy)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2002, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-in-despair/135521/166 "2002-11-10T16:26:47Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Sam Stone \* > \*\*Here, let’s flesh out the ‘neighbor’ analogy. > > Let’s say you have a neighbor who’s really nuts. He’s violent. He beats his childen and wife. Then one day, he starts building a big mother of a flamethrower in his backyard. When its done, suddenly he declares war on his other neighbor, and burns his house down with his flamethrower. The other neighbor fights back, and pushes the guy back into his yard, and destroys his flamethrower. > > Undaunted, the neighbor builds another flamethrower. When its done, he attacks another one of his neighbors, and burns down his house. This time, the whole neighborhood gets together, pushes him back into his yard, and forces him to dismantle his flamethrower. Not only that, but they post lookouts to make sure he won’t build another one.\*\* I have a couple problems here. I don’t know where this “beating” is coming from. He’s not beating his children and wife, he’s killing one of them every now and then. And furthermore, I think you should add this: **You** stand most of that lookout watch, and this guy frequently sticks a machine gun out of his window and shoots it in your direction. > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Stoid_ > \*\*I don’t think Israel has a damn thing to worry about from Iraq… Especially since she could kick his ass aorunf the block. > \*\* How are you reaching this conclusion, **Stoid**? Using conventional means, I don’t see how Israel could do this. As strong as they are, they’re very confined. A push into Jordan to reach Iraq would have to allow for the extremely likely possibility of Egypt, Syria, and Lebanon taking advantage of the opening and rolling into Israel. Aside from allowing for this, they’d have to deal with a long, thin supply chain flowing through hostile territory. > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by elucidator_ > **Iraq’s program of drone aircraft with 10,000 mile ranges…** Um, 10,000 miles? I’d be surprised if he could get them to go 1,000 miles. Where is this figure coming from? ---
**Author:** ![Hickory6](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ecae2f/32.png) [@Hickory6](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hickory6)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2002, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-in-despair/135521/167 "2002-11-10T19:25:12Z")
Stoid, \<\\> Ummm…that’s a rather breathtaking statement. ---
**Author:** ![Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2002, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-in-despair/135521/168 "2002-11-10T19:47:37Z")
> [@](#): > > Um, 10,000 miles? I’d be surprised if he could get them to go 1,000 miles. Where is this figure coming from? I think that’s what’s known as a “neural-digital synaptical communications breakdown”, or a “keyboard fart”. 😃 [http://www.gyre.org/news/cache/2490](http://www.gyre.org/news/cache/2490) > [@](#): > > Uncertain Ability to Deliver a Blow > Joby Warrick > Washington Post, 2002-09-04 > > …Both the liquid-fuel Al-Samoud – which was successfully tested by Iraq two years ago – and the solid-fuel Ababil are technically permitted under U.N. disarmament rules that allow Iraq to develop defensive missiles with a range of less than 150 kilometers, or about 100 miles. But intelligence officials believe Iraq is skirting the U.N. rules and secretly conducting research on missiles capable of reaching more distant targets. [http://www.intellnet.org/news/?type=category&value=Unmanned%20Aircraft](http://www.intellnet.org/news/?type=category&value=Unmanned%20Aircraft) > [@](#): > > Intelligence News Summary > > German intelligence denies report on Iraq drone > Date: 2002-09-15 Posted By: Dan Sale Topics: Germany : Iraq : Unmanned Aircraft > Germany’s BND intelligence agency denied Sunday having information that Iraq has developed an unmanned aircraft capable of carrying out toxic gas strikes over a range of 1,000 kilometers (620 miles). > Region: Europe > Read It At: ProLog (AFP) (Mirrored Copy) > > Iraq has developed toxic gas strike aircraft: German newspaper > Date: 2002-09-14 Posted By: Dan Sale Topics: Iraq : Unmanned Aircraft : Chemical Weapons > Iraq has developed an unmanned aircraft that can carry out toxic gas strikes over a range of 1,000 kilometers, the weekly Welt am Sonntag reports. > Region: Middle East > Read It At: Australian Broadcasting Corporation (Mirrored Copy) ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2002, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-in-despair/135521/169 "2002-11-10T21:21:29Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mr. Moto \* > \*\*Maybe, just maybe, Bush is worried about them and wants to avoid needless casualties, a strong possibility yet one that would elude you. \*\* Wants to avoid needless casualties? Got a real good idea for him. Take 'em right down to zero. Maybe he’s got all kinds of secret motivations that he can’t share with us. Maybe I’m not as stupid as you might like to believe. And maybe he’s peeing on our shoes and telling us its raining. Or has that possibility eluded you? Review the half-truths, evasions, and outright lies he has told in support of his war. This is the man you will follow into war? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2002, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-in-despair/135521/170 "2002-11-11T13:04:23Z")
The “half-truths, evasions, and outright lies” are coming from the side that opposes Bush. The idea that we will reduce casualties to zero by ignoring Saddam’s violations of the cease-fire and of human rights is the idea that offends our moral sensibilities. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2002, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-in-despair/135521/171 "2002-11-11T18:35:34Z")
> [@](#): > > The “half-truths, evasions, and outright lies” are coming from the side that opposes Bush. Cites? (The serial prevarication of King George the lesser has been proven multiple times on the SDMB, but I’d be happy to prove it again if you’d like. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2002, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-in-despair/135521/172 "2002-11-11T18:56:14Z")
I finally put my finger on what’s bothering me. I think there could be an intelligent discussion as to whether or not the threat Saddam poses is best dealt with as Bush is dealing with, or whether that merits such a strong reponse. But this whole “Saddam isn’t a threat” and its corollary that Bush is making it up for some reason is total ignorant bullshit. Come on. The guy hates America. He hates Israel. He’s used chemical and biological agents. He’s been seeking nuclear agents. He’s clearly power hungry. He’s a fucking monster terrorizing his own countrymen as well as attacking his neighbors. He’s in direct contravention of UN resolutions against him directly because of these things. Let’s not pretend he’s not a threat. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2002, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-in-despair/135521/173 "2002-11-11T19:13:07Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic \* > \*\* > > Cites? (The serial prevarication of King George the lesser has been proven multiple times on the SDMB, but I’d be happy to prove it again if you’d like. 😃 \*\* I was referring to **elucidator** ’s inability to provide evidence that Bush had referred to North Korea as not a big deal. I have read thru several threads accusing Bush of lying, but they tend to be unproductive exercises in progressively louder accusations against Bush, based on a standard to which no one else seems to be capable of adhering. If you just mean instances of Bush disagreeing with the CIA, save your bandwidth. If you have anything new, feel free. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2002, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-in-despair/135521/174 "2002-11-11T23:46:38Z")
How about fabricating a non-existent report? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2002, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-in-despair/135521/175 "2002-11-11T23:58:20Z")
Aha! Got you, **Diogenes**! He did _not_ fabricate a non-existent report! He merely used that non-existent report as proof! We will, of course, expect an abject apology and retraction. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2002, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-in-despair/135521/176 "2002-11-12T01:10:09Z")
Shodan, Bush’s actions/inactions speak as loudly as is required - and they’d better, in relation to the credibility of his public statements. North Korea apparently _does_ have nuclear warheads, they _do_ have missiles that can reach Japan and further, they _do_ have a repressive regime, and therefore ought to be considered a more serious threat _using Bush’s own stated criteria_. But he has certainly treated it as “not a big deal” in comparison to Iraq. Clear now? Diogenes, elucidator, “I don’t know what more proof you need”, lied the man who claimed he was going to restore honor and dignity and be a uniter and not a divider. It’s comforting in a way to know we weren’t fooled then or now, but it isn’t much of a comfort, is it? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2002, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-in-despair/135521/177 "2002-11-12T01:33:42Z")
**Scylla** , who isn’t a threat? Want to make a list of countries that pose a threat. Iran, Libya, North Korea, just off the top of my head. At one and the same time,. you claim this is a pathological madman, the ordinary constraints don’t apply, he has these terrible weapons. So why hasn’t he used them? He has had reason to hate us for at least 10 years, has had oodles and gobs of dreadful weapons. And yet has done nothing. Nothing. What is this blithering madman waiting for? _We_ are the ones who established the international law against aggressive war. We hanged Tojo for it. And justly so, there is no more vile crime that waging war of agression. You remember us, don’t you? The last best hope of mankind? The Good Guys, wearing the white hats? So now we are to redefine ourselves as the Shining Citadel on the Hill? Because of something someone _might_ do? For me, on a personal note, the worst of it is I have to hope and pray that Our Leader will prevail. I have to hope that this blitheringly stupid endeavor comes up smelling like a rose. I have to hope that the first smart bomb lands on Saddam, and Our Leader comes gallumphing back to bask in this triumph, carrying the head on a pike. Because otherwise there are children playing soccer in the streets of Baghdad who are as good as dead. And soldiers, sworn to protect me and mine, will die. This cause is not worth even one of thier lives. Not one. And if Bush _isn’t_ making this up, why the smokescreen of half-truths, innuendos and outright lies? If his case so firm, so undeniable, whats wrong with the straight facts? But be assured, **Scylla** , I believe you will have your wish. There will be war. Little short of a miracle can stop a war that has been so prepared for. And there are so few of those. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2002, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-in-despair/135521/178 "2002-11-12T01:55:49Z")
Elucidator: Please don’t tell me what my wish is, especially when it comes to war. If you want to know what I want, you can just ask. Saying that I wish for war is one stop beyond. I’m being polite, but that remark truly angers me. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2002, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-in-despair/135521/179 "2002-11-12T02:06:53Z")
**Scylla** , okay then, what _do_ you wish? One thing I wish is that we all face the facts, and the evidence both ways, and the context in both short and long terms, before deciding what needs to be or not be done. If we were, there wouldn’t even be a discussion. But you can’t have it both ways. If you take a stand, you take a share in the responsibility for its consequences, whether you “want” them or not. Perhaps if you had a son who will reach draft age right on time to go get killed, as I do, that might affect your assessment of the true enormity of this situation. So clarify for us, please (and you’re a good enough writer to do it): What do you want? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2002, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-in-despair/135521/180 "2002-11-12T02:08:40Z")
Then say so! Now is the time. Are you opposed to this war? You will never have a better chance to go on record, I sure as hell am! I mean, that last post, listing justifications for war sure as hell looks like you support the idea. Have I missed something? 'Cause I’d be plumb tickled to be wrong. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-in-despair/135521.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-in-despair/135521.md?page=10)