# I am Mad as Hell #1 \[America is Unraveling / Transportation rant\] **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 1, 2008, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-mad-as-hell-1-america-is-unraveling-transportation-rant/443593 "2008-04-01T22:42:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![focusonz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/9dc877/32.png) [@focusonz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/focusonz)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2008, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-mad-as-hell-1-america-is-unraveling-transportation-rant/443593/61 "2008-04-02T16:59:26Z")
[QUOTE=lightingtool] I just couldn’t let this little gem pass without comment. I just spent some time on the Los Angeles MTA page figuring out my commute if I were to take public transport. I would have to take 3 different trains, a bus, and walk about a mile (or take another bus). It would take me over 2 hours and 15 minutes to get from my house to my job. My current driving time is about 45 minutes to an hour. Also, since you are in favor of ignoring maintenance,\* I’m going to ignore all costs associated with driving my car except for gas. It would cost me more to take public transport every day than I spend on gas for my little Corolla that gets around 33 mpg. So public transport would not ‘put money in my pocket directly.’ Oh, and by the way, what’s powering all this public transport? \*Bolding mine [/QUOTE] It would put money in your pocket if it was free for the first 10 years! And like I have said the system has to be designed with you as the target market in mind and you want a 45 minute commute. Hybrid electric/natural gas engines with regenerative braking. The US has nearly 600 trillion cubic feet of known natural gas reserves in 2006 up from 500 trillion in 2001. No imports of natural gas are required and the infrastructure to deliver quantity is already in place in most regions except the northeast. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2008, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-mad-as-hell-1-america-is-unraveling-transportation-rant/443593/62 "2008-04-02T17:01:02Z")
[QUOTE=focusonz] It would put money in your pocket if it was free for the first 10 years! [/quote] Other than the enormous tax on gas. Even with public transportation, people will have to drive their kids to school. > [@](#): > > The US has nearly 600 trillion cubic feet of known natural gas reserves in 2006 up from 500 trillion in 2001. No imports of natural gas are required and the infrastructure to deliver quantity is already in place in most regions except the northeast. It costs money to get it out of the ground even if it’s in the U.S. and the infrastructure is in place. ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2008, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-mad-as-hell-1-america-is-unraveling-transportation-rant/443593/63 "2008-04-02T17:11:25Z")
[QUOTE=Q.E.D.] Wastrel! You have any idea how many gallons to the mile those things get? [/QUOTE] From wiki, Sherman tank: > [@](#): > > 120 miles @ 175 US gal (193 km @ 660 l / 80 octane), top speed of 38.5 km/h (24 mi/h) (brief) Which, I think, works out to be 0.69 miles per gallon, and you must fill up after roughly 6 hours of travel. At the current prices of $3.25 per gallon, that’s $568.75 per fill up. (Heh. I have no idea what the price of gas in 1944 was, nor the average income for working class Americans, either.) But, on the plus side, you have a 66,000 pound vehicle equipped with 3.5 inches of armor on the front, and a 75mm gun. Pretty handy for those road rage moments. ---
**Author:** ![lightingtool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/57b2e6/32.png) [@lightingtool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lightingtool)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2008, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-mad-as-hell-1-america-is-unraveling-transportation-rant/443593/64 "2008-04-02T17:14:42Z")
[QUOTE=focusonz] It would put money in your pocket if it was free for the first 10 years! [/QUOTE] Sure, if you ignore the extra $100.00/month I’d be spending on gas for the (I’ll be really optimistic here) 5 years it would take to build this spiffy transport system. ---
**Author:** ![gotpasswords](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c57346/32.png) [@gotpasswords](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gotpasswords)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2008, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-mad-as-hell-1-america-is-unraveling-transportation-rant/443593/65 "2008-04-02T17:15:39Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] You have to build it first. Not every American, even in a city, lives near a mass-transit stop. [/QUOTE] No kidding. I live two miles from the nearest mass-transit stop. I’m so far out in suburbia, that I live beyond the bus yard. And, the OP’s figures on the cost per mile to build rail-based transit are badly off, almost by a full order of magnitude. Recent BART extensions came in at right about $200 million per mile. And that’s just the cost to lay tracks and maybe buy a little rolling stock to put on the tracks. Ignoring operating and maintenance costs is foolish - rail systems are maintenance hogs, and if you don’t keep up with maintenance, your tracks will be clogged with broken-down trains. Keep things breaking down often enough, and nobody will want to ride the train. ---
**Author:** ![catsix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@catsix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/catsix)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2008, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-mad-as-hell-1-america-is-unraveling-transportation-rant/443593/66 "2008-04-02T17:58:40Z")
> [@](#): > > **Hentor the Barbarian** said: > What does the Onorato drink tax have to do with our public transit? The [Onorato Drink Tax](http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/07191/800603-46.stm) (which also applies to rental cars) was instituted by Dan Onorato to bail out the (once-again) failing Port Authority Transit, aka Allegheny County’s public transportation system. That’s what it has to do with ‘public transit’. How the hell can you profess to speak intelligently about the region when you don’t even know what the fuck the Onorato tax is? > [@](#): > > What about those of us who want a vital and prosperous city of Pittsburgh in order to have something for surrounding communities to surround? First, you could try removing your utter ignorance at the asinine measures that have been enacted to attempt to prop up a public transportation system that is for all intents and purposes **bankrupt**. > [@](#): > > I’d like to see a much improved mass transit system so that people don’t have to commute to Wexford or Beaver or New Castle because more people can actually live and work closer to Pittsburgh, meaning that business can draw from a larger population of potential employees, and perhaps more importantly, a larger population of consumers. Do you realize how long it takes to commute to even, say, Monroeville by public transportation vs. car? Public transportation takes easily an hour and a half when there is little traffic. The bus itself only runs about once an hour, from Oakland, and usually means taking a transfer from somewhere else. When it takes up to 2.5 hours to get to a place on a bus that a car can reach in 40 minutes in rush hour, why would anyone choose to take the bus? > [@](#): > > It may be that a transit system needs a big city to be viable, but I think a city needs a transit system to become a viable big city. I’m tired of seeing the population of Pittsburgh shrink. I moved out of Pittsburgh (and Allegheny County), not because of public transportation but because of taxes. They are vastly lower where I am now. I don’t work in Pittsburgh either. There is **no incentive at all** for me to pay another $1.44 per gallon of gas in taxes so that you can have more buses. > [@](#): > > The bottom line, most important question is: Do you want to see the Butler Steelers, or maybe the LA Steelers? The PaTransit has absolutely nothing to do with the Steelers remaining in town. They will be here for as long as there are Rooneys and fans in the stadium. When’s the last time they failed to sell out a home game? > [@](#): > > **gotpasswords** said: > No kidding. I live two miles from the nearest mass-transit stop. I’m so far out in suburbia, that I live beyond the bus yard. I live further than that from any sort of mass transit. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2008, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-mad-as-hell-1-america-is-unraveling-transportation-rant/443593/67 "2008-04-02T18:15:43Z")
[QUOTE=lightingtool] Oh, and by the way, what’s powering all this public transport? [/QUOTE] I’m afraid nuclear is the only practical option. ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2008, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-mad-as-hell-1-america-is-unraveling-transportation-rant/443593/68 "2008-04-02T18:26:20Z")
[QUOTE=catsix] I live further than that from any sort of mass transit. [/QUOTE] Same here. People want better mass transport in the cities? Great! Knock yourselfs out. Ride it all you want, and pay for it too. ---
**Author:** ![danceswithcats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9e8a1a/32.png) [@danceswithcats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/danceswithcats)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2008, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-mad-as-hell-1-america-is-unraveling-transportation-rant/443593/69 "2008-04-02T18:29:21Z")
[QUOTE=Cervaise] What, so, everybody gets to ride for free for the first ten years, and they get blowjobs? I might be able to get behind that. [/quote] Sexist bastid. What about the women? This mass transit plan should provide liquor and lickers. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![focusonz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/9dc877/32.png) [@focusonz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/focusonz)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2008, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-mad-as-hell-1-america-is-unraveling-transportation-rant/443593/70 "2008-04-02T18:32:30Z")
[QUOTE=gotpasswords] No kidding. I live two miles from the nearest mass-transit stop. I’m so far out in suburbia, that I live beyond the bus yard. And, the OP’s figures on the cost per mile to build rail-based transit are badly off, almost by a full order of magnitude. Recent BART extensions came in at right about $200 million per mile. And that’s just the cost to lay tracks and maybe buy a little rolling stock to put on the tracks. Ignoring operating and maintenance costs is foolish - rail systems are maintenance hogs, and if you don’t keep up with maintenance, your tracks will be clogged with broken-down trains. Keep things breaking down often enough, and nobody will want to ride the train. [/QUOTE] Bart is bad example as it is built in in earthquake prone and liquefying soils. A better average is $35 million per mile. see [Light rail - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Light_rail#cite_note-LRNOW-16) and [http://www.lightrail.com/projects.htm](http://www.lightrail.com/projects.htm) We are not ignoring maintenance. The plan pays for it upfront not as you go. The plan takes the excess tax revenue after construction of about $2 billion placed into a interest bearing account @ 5% returns about $273 thousand per day. And from above reference operating costs are on order of $163 per hour per car so given the St Louis example 8 rush hours of operation of 203 cars is about 163_203_8=$264 thousand ---
**Author:** ![focusonz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/9dc877/32.png) [@focusonz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/focusonz)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2008, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-mad-as-hell-1-america-is-unraveling-transportation-rant/443593/71 "2008-04-02T18:39:18Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] I’m afraid nuclear is the only practical option. [/QUOTE] Hybrid electric/natural gas engines with regenerative braking. The US has nearly 600 trillion cubic feet of known natural gas reserves in 2006 up from 500 trillion in 2001. No imports of natural gas are required and the infrastructure to deliver quantities is already in place in most regions except the northeast. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2008, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-mad-as-hell-1-america-is-unraveling-transportation-rant/443593/72 "2008-04-02T18:44:15Z")
[QUOTE=catsix] The [Onorato Drink Tax](http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/07191/800603-46.stm) (which also applies to rental cars) was instituted by Dan Onorato to bail out the (once-again) failing Port Authority Transit, aka Allegheny County’s public transportation system. That’s what it has to do with ‘public transit’. How the hell can you profess to speak intelligently about the region when you don’t even know what the fuck the Onorato tax is? [/quote] I knew that it was a drink tax. I didn’t know that it was tasked to public transit. Basically, I don’t do a lot of drinking, and tire of people whining about taxes, so I haven’t concerned myself with it. > [@](#): > > First, you could try removing your utter ignorance at the asinine measures that have been enacted to attempt to prop up a public transportation system that is for all intents and purposes **bankrupt**. Okay, once was sufficient. You educated me. Now you’re just being a fuckhead. > [@](#): > > Do you realize how long it takes to commute to even, say, Monroeville by public transportation vs. car? Public transportation takes easily an hour and a half when there is little traffic. The bus itself only runs about once an hour, from Oakland, and usually means taking a transfer from somewhere else. When it takes up to 2.5 hours to get to a place on a bus that a car can reach in 40 minutes in rush hour, why would anyone choose to take the bus? Wait. Are you arguing for or against the need to improve the transit system? It takes me about an hour to drive 11 miles from the South Hills to Oakland, and about an hour and 15 minutes to take a not-entirely-convenient combination of T service and bus. > [@](#): > > I moved out of Pittsburgh (and Allegheny County), not because of public transportation but because of taxes. They are vastly lower where I am now. I don’t work in Pittsburgh either. There is **no incentive at all** for me to pay another $1.44 per gallon of gas in taxes so that you can have more buses. And that’s super duper for you. If you don’t care to have a city center to support having stuff around, great. You could even move to Lycoming County. Taxes are probably pretty damn low out there, and they do have a mall, albeit a small one. > [@](#): > > The PaTransit has absolutely nothing to do with the Steelers remaining in town. They will be here for as long as there are Rooneys and fans in the stadium. When’s the last time they failed to sell out a home game? When they needed money for a new stadium, they did in fact make some noise about moving to Beaver. How can you purport to speak about Pittsburgh if you don’t even fucking know that? ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2008, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-mad-as-hell-1-america-is-unraveling-transportation-rant/443593/73 "2008-04-02T18:48:30Z")
[QUOTE=catsix] Do you realize how long it takes to commute to even, say, Monroeville by public transportation vs. car? Public transportation takes easily an hour and a half when there is little traffic. The bus itself only runs about once an hour, from Oakland, and usually means taking a transfer from somewhere else. When it takes up to 2.5 hours to get to a place on a bus that a car can reach in 40 minutes in rush hour, **why would anyone choose to take the bus**? [/QUOTE] Bolding mine. The OP stipulated, IIRC, on legislating a ban on all privately owned vehicles from operating within city limits. The choice is not available to you. Your time estimates are based on how long it takes the buses _at present traffic patterns_ to travel that distance. If the demands on the public transit system were such that 100 times as many people needed to use the bus, then I suspect that this estimate will go higher. I have a similar issue to you. I work on a Naval Air Station. There is tens of thousands of folks (civilian, government service, and active duty) that work here on weekdays. There are only two main roads out of here, connecting to the rest of the county. At 50 people per bus, that is 200+ buses or trolley cars (light rail). What kind of lines at the bus stop are we talking about here? And this doesn’t include the million _other_ people in the city limits that may need to go to and fro. 2 hour commute? I dunno… I burn one gallon of gas each way on my commute. $3.50/gal at local (unadjusted for the new tax leveled by the OP) prices. Is this bus/train/ferry trip going to cost me less than $7.00? It damn well better… ---
**Author:** ![focusonz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/9dc877/32.png) [@focusonz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/focusonz)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2008, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-mad-as-hell-1-america-is-unraveling-transportation-rant/443593/74 "2008-04-02T18:48:30Z")
[QUOTE=Marley23] Other than the enormous tax on gas. Even with public transportation, people will have to drive their kids to school. It costs money to get it out of the ground even if it’s in the U.S. and the infrastructure is in place. [/QUOTE] The 1 year increased tax on fuel is only to bootstrap the project for 10 years. After that it becomes a perpetual motion machine. Also see post #70 ---
**Author:** ![focusonz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/9dc877/32.png) [@focusonz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/focusonz)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2008, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-mad-as-hell-1-america-is-unraveling-transportation-rant/443593/75 "2008-04-02T19:05:00Z")
[QUOTE=mlees] I work on a Naval Air Station. There is tens of thousands of folks (civilian, government service, and active duty) that work here on weekdays. There are only two main roads out of here, connecting to the rest of the county. At 50 people per bus, that is 200+ buses or trolley cars (light rail). What kind of lines at the bus stop are we talking about here? And this doesn’t include the million _other_ people in the city limits that may need to go to and fro. 2 hour commute? I dunno… I burn one gallon of gas each way on my commute. $3.50/gal at local (unadjusted for the new tax leveled by the OP) prices. Is this bus/train/ferry trip going to cost me less than $7.00? It damn well better… [/QUOTE] GI Beans and GI gravy Jee i wish I’d joined the Navy! Do the math if the fuel savings does not pay for the investment in nominally 3 years at current fuel prices don’t build it because you will not come! ---
**Author:** ![PunditLisa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/4af34b/32.png) [@PunditLisa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PunditLisa)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2008, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-mad-as-hell-1-america-is-unraveling-transportation-rant/443593/76 "2008-04-02T19:57:03Z")
If we just nuked all the people who snicker at us off the face of the planet, that’d solve a lot of our problems, too. And it’d be a lot more economical!! I need to quit watching “The Tudors.” ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2008, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-mad-as-hell-1-america-is-unraveling-transportation-rant/443593/77 "2008-04-02T21:38:14Z")
[QUOTE=focusonz] GI Beans and GI gravy Jee i wish I’d joined the Navy! [/quote] You woosh me, sir. > [@](#): > > Do the math if the fuel savings does not pay for the investment in nominally 3 years at current fuel prices don’t build it because you will not come! Hmm. I was trying to approach you with the economic angle, because that appeared to be the method of justification you were using with posts #31 & #39. Lemmee give it a whirl: The most recent light rail project in San Diego County was the “Sprinter”. [http://www.gonctd.com/sprinter\_intro.htm#1](http://www.gonctd.com/sprinter_intro.htm#1) & [Sprinter (rail service) - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sprinter_%28passenger_rail%29) $477 million spent on the project. 22 miles of pre-existing track, 15 stations, 53 minute transit time. 30 minutes between each train, 450 people per train. Runs 4AM to 8PM. (The original estimate, made back in '93, was $60 million. 😃 These kind of cost overruns is a trademark of government on many levels.) That works out to 28,800 passengers per day. (If the trains ran at full capacity every time.) 477,000,000 / 22 miles = $21,681,818 per mile, divided by 28,800 passengers works out to $752.84 per passenger-mile. This does not include operating or maintenance costs. Just the initial outlay. Admitedly, one train every 30 minutes sounds low, lets say they double the trains to every 15 minutes. $21,681,818 / 57,600 passengers = $376.42 per passenger-mile (but then again, the cost of buying and operating the additional trains wasn’t added in). How does this compare to the average freeway? (Which, by nature, can serve more folks…) A passenger can buy a monthly pass for $54 (at the current ticket prices), which sounds cheap. (Compared to the $40/week that I pay for gas, that is.) Some will pay the $2 or $4 one day ticket, too. Unsure how much revenue this works out to be. Whatever the revenue is, it helps offset the operation and maintenance of the Sprinter, but never-the-less, some of the detractors of the Sprinter say that the $477 million would have been better spent on something that would benefit more people. If you lived, worked, went to school (etc) all within a mile of one of the train stations, this is a nice little setup. (Except when it is raining.) For the rest of the county, maybe not so much. ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2008, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-mad-as-hell-1-america-is-unraveling-transportation-rant/443593/78 "2008-04-02T21:46:21Z")
[QUOTE=PunditLisa] If we just nuked all the people who snicker at us off the face of the planet, that’d solve a lot of our problems, too. And it’d be a lot more economical!! I need to quit watching “The Tudors.” [/QUOTE] I’m not snickering at anyone. I am just dubious about some of the claims made by the OP. “Public Transit is the ANSWER to ALL Woes!” is not a particularly new rallying cry. As an off topic aside: The mindset that the benevolant government should mandate change in lifestyle (through taxes or criminal laws) on an unwilling populace (for their own good, you see) seems to be a popular one in some circles. Rather disappointing, really. ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2008, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-mad-as-hell-1-america-is-unraveling-transportation-rant/443593/79 "2008-04-02T21:51:05Z")
[QUOTE=focusonz] GI Beans and GI gravy Jee i wish I’d joined the Navy! [/QUOTE] Burma Shave doggerel is hardly a basis for public governance. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Odds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/d_odds/32/2882_2.png) [@D\_Odds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Odds)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2008, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-mad-as-hell-1-america-is-unraveling-transportation-rant/443593/80 "2008-04-02T22:06:23Z")
[QUOTE=mlees] As an off topic aside: The mindset that the benevolant government should mandate change in lifestyle (through taxes or criminal laws) on an unwilling populace (for their own good, you see) seems to be a popular one in some circles. Rather disappointing, really. [/QUOTE] I would be all for it, just as long as you find me a benevolent government. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-mad-as-hell-1-america-is-unraveling-transportation-rant/443593.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-mad-as-hell-1-america-is-unraveling-transportation-rant/443593.md?page=5)