# I am not a conspiracy theorist, but maybe they are on to something. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 13, 2014, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-not-a-conspiracy-theorist-but-maybe-they-are-on-to-something/685985 "2014-04-13T02:26:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![tonyfop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/85f322/32.png) [@tonyfop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tonyfop)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2014, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-not-a-conspiracy-theorist-but-maybe-they-are-on-to-something/685985/1 "2014-04-13T02:26:47Z")
A friend of mine who is very much of the libertarian bent sent a link to this paper: [http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3969660/#ref5](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3969660/#ref5) This paper appears on the National Institutes of Health website, and it seems to say that fluoridation of water is a known cause of neurological degradation. The entire thrust of the paper is testing another substance to block the toxicity of the fluoride. Here is the most relevent quote: > [@](#): > > INTRODUCTION > > Fluoride (F) is probably the first inorganic ion which drew attention of the scientific world for its toxic effects and now the F toxicity through drinking water is well-recognized as a global problem. As I said in the thread title, I am not one to subscribe to conspiracy theory, but this article appears to me as a smoking gun. Yes Fluoride has its benefits, but it has some really bad side effects, which the public are kept in the dark on. So here is the debate: Resolved, Fluoridation of public drinking water should be suspended until the effects of neurotoxicity of Fluoride can be effectively mitigated or a replacement for fluoride is found. ---
**Author:** ![dofe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ba0ec/32.png) [@dofe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dofe)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2014, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-not-a-conspiracy-theorist-but-maybe-they-are-on-to-something/685985/2 "2014-04-13T02:47:46Z")
The subject paper’s opening line sounds dramatic, but it’s not what you think it is. Note that the authors of the paper are faculty at Sukhadia University, India. India does have an acute Fluoride toxicity problem, but this is due to well water poisoned by [granite rocks](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluoride_toxicity): > [@](#): > > In India an estimated 60 million people have been poisoned by well water contaminated by excessive fluoride, which is dissolved from the granite rocks. The effects are particularly evident in the bone deformations of children. Similar or larger problems are anticipated in other countries including China, Uzbekistan, and Ethiopia.[5] Fluoride, like many elements, is toxic at high concentrations. At low concentrations, however, it offers significant dental health benefits, which is the reason municipalities fluoridate water. ---
**Author:** ![njtt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecd19e/32.png) [@njtt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/njtt)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2014, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-not-a-conspiracy-theorist-but-maybe-they-are-on-to-something/685985/3 "2014-04-13T02:50:38Z")
I think you will find that these toxic effects occur only at concentrations much, much higher than those found in artificially fluoridated drinking water. Mildly toxic (or close to toxic) concentrations, however, may be found in a few of those places around the world where the water _naturally_ contains significant amounts of fluoride, without it being deliberately added (because it is in the local rocks). I think it is probably this latter problem that the authors of your paper are concerned about. ETA: Ninjaed by **dofe**! :mad: ---
**Author:** ![Twoflower](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/twoflower/32/22_2.png) [@Twoflower](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Twoflower)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2014, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-not-a-conspiracy-theorist-but-maybe-they-are-on-to-something/685985/4 "2014-04-13T02:51:51Z")
The CDC says that the optimum fluoride concentration is drink water is [1.0 ppm](http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/rr5014a1.htm). The US EPA set a maximum level for fluoride in drinking water of [4.0 ppm](http://water.epa.gov/drink/contaminants/basicinformation/fluoride.cfm#four). The mice in the referenced study in the OP were given water with 120 ppm of fluorine. The fact that those mice suffered ill effects is utterly irrelevant to the safety of fluoride in drinking water. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2014, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-not-a-conspiracy-theorist-but-maybe-they-are-on-to-something/685985/5 "2014-04-13T03:07:54Z")
> [@tonyfop](#): > > A friend of mine who is very much of the libertarian bent sent a link to this paper: > > [http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3969660/#ref5](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3969660/#ref5) > > This paper appears on the National Institutes of Health website, and it seems to say that fluoridation of water is a known cause of neurological degradation. The entire thrust of the paper is testing another substance to block the toxicity of the fluoride. Here is the most relevent quote: > > As I said in the thread title, I am not one to subscribe to conspiracy theory, but this article appears to me as a smoking gun. Yes Fluoride has its benefits, but it has some really bad side effects, which the public are kept in the dark on. > > So here is the debate: > > Resolved, Fluoridation of public drinking water should be suspended until the effects of neurotoxicity of Fluoride can be effectively mitigated or a replacement for fluoride is found. As I understand it, that site does nothing more than list the existence of the study and where it was published. It’s not an endorsement. ---
**Author:** ![tonyfop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/85f322/32.png) [@tonyfop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tonyfop)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2014, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-not-a-conspiracy-theorist-but-maybe-they-are-on-to-something/685985/6 "2014-04-13T03:35:26Z")
> [@Twoflower](#): > > The CDC says that the optimum fluoride concentration is drink water is [1.0 ppm](http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/rr5014a1.htm). The US EPA set a maximum level for fluoride in drinking water of [4.0 ppm](http://water.epa.gov/drink/contaminants/basicinformation/fluoride.cfm#four). The mice in the referenced study in the OP were given water with 120 ppm of fluorine. > > The fact that those mice suffered ill effects is utterly irrelevant to the safety of fluoride in drinking water. Thanks! Now I get to go back over to Facebook and attempt to fight me some ignorance over there. Wish me luck, cause I’ll need it! ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2014, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-not-a-conspiracy-theorist-but-maybe-they-are-on-to-something/685985/7 "2014-04-13T05:02:14Z")
What is the conspiracy and what nefarious thing is it trying to be accomplish with Fluoridation? Does it have anything to do with our Precious Bodily Fluids? ---
**Author:** ![Accidental\_Martyr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ce7236/32.png) [@Accidental\_Martyr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Accidental_Martyr)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2014, 5:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-not-a-conspiracy-theorist-but-maybe-they-are-on-to-something/685985/8 "2014-04-13T05:05:49Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > What is the conspiracy and what nefarious thing is it trying to be accomplish with Fluoridation? Does it have anything to do with our Precious Bodily Fluids? I just hope they don’t put it in children’s ice cream! ---
**Author:** ![Farin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e79b87/32.png) [@Farin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farin)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2014, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-not-a-conspiracy-theorist-but-maybe-they-are-on-to-something/685985/9 "2014-04-13T05:19:00Z")
> [@tonyfop](#): > > Thanks! Now I get to go back over to Facebook and attempt to fight me some ignorance over there. Wish me luck, cause I’ll need it! More generally helpful, I’ve found, is referencing toxicity in whole. I refer to the axiom “the dose makes the poison” and also references for [water](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_intoxication)and [oxygen](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxygen_toxicity)toxicities. Water is completely safe to drink, until you take in so much that you disturb your body’s chemical balance. Oxygen is completely safe to breathe, until you breathe it under pressure or at high saturations for long periods of time. There is not one thing on this planet that is “completely safe” but there are myriad things that are “casually safe” - they are safe in almost every instance that a common person will come into contact with it. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2014, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-not-a-conspiracy-theorist-but-maybe-they-are-on-to-something/685985/10 "2014-04-13T05:26:32Z")
**dofe** : I don’t know anyone, anyone at all, here in China who drinks water that isn’t delivered in a bottle. No kidding; I’ve yet to see anyone drink tap water or well water. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2014, 9:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-not-a-conspiracy-theorist-but-maybe-they-are-on-to-something/685985/11 "2014-04-13T09:51:55Z")
> [@Accidental\_Martyr](#): > > I just hope they don’t put it in children’s ice cream! Oh, think of the ice cream! Why do they never think of the ice cream? ---
**Author:** ![buddha\_david](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ee7513/32.png) [@buddha\_david](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buddha_david)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2014, 11:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-not-a-conspiracy-theorist-but-maybe-they-are-on-to-something/685985/12 "2014-04-13T11:07:56Z")
> [@tonyfop](#): > > [http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3969660/#ref5](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3969660/#ref5) > > This paper appears on the National Institutes of Health website, and it seems to say that fluoridation of water is a known cause of neurological degradation. [Old news.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qr2bSL5VQgM) ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2014, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-not-a-conspiracy-theorist-but-maybe-they-are-on-to-something/685985/13 "2014-04-13T16:55:15Z")
[From 1955:](http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/File:Unholy_three.png) > [@](#): > > Are you willing to PUT IN PAWN to the UNHOLY THREE all of the material, mental and spiritual resources of this GREAT REPUBLIC? > > **FLUORIDATED WATER** > > 1.–Water containing fluorine (rat poison – no antidote) is already the only water in many of our army camps, making it very easy for saboteurs to wipe out an entire camp personnel. If this happens, every citizen will be at the mercy of the enemy – already within the gates. > > **POLIO SERUM** > > 2.–Polio serum, it is reported, has already killed and maimed children; its future effect on minds and bodies cannot be guaged. This vaccine drive is the entering wedge for nation-wide socialized medicine, by the U.S. Public Health Service, (heavily infiltrated by Russian-born doctors, according to Congressman Clare Hoffman.) In enemy hands it can destroy a whole generation. > > **MENTAL HYGIENE** > > 3.–Mental hygiene is a subtle and diabolical plan of the enemy to transform a free and intelligent people into a cringing horde of zombies. > Rabbi Spitz in the American Hebrew, March 1, 1946: “American Jews must come to grips with our contemporary anti-Semites; we must fill our insane asylums with anti-Semitic lunatics.” > > **FIGHT COMMUNISTIC WORLD GOVERNMENT by destroying THE UNHOLY THREE!!! It is later than you think!"** [From 2014:](http://talkingpointsmemo.com/muckraker/kansas-fluoride-bill) > [@](#): > > Some Kansas lawmakers are worried about those precious bodily fluids. > > The Kansas House’s Health and Human Services Committee has on its agenda Monday a bill that would require cities to warn citizens if fluoride is added to drinking water. The measure, which declares fluoride dangerous, has been criticized by public health officials and the Kansas Dental Association, according to The Associated Press. > > The bill, known as “HB 2372,” mandates that all Kansas cities and other local government entities “providing water service that artificially fluoridate their community drinking water must notify the consumers of that treated water, that the latest science confirms that ingested fluoride lowers the I.Q. in children.” > > The Kansas Dental Association has called the bill “simply a scare tactic designed to put unnecessary fear in the citizens of Kansas.” > > “Water fluoridation has been proven for decades to be a safe, health and effective way to reduce tooth decay,” the association said in a statement earlier this month. “While fluoride opponents will declare water fluoridation to be harmful, science and the health profession say otherwise.” > > But at least some of the bill’s supporters consider the matter life and death. > > “I’m doing the most pro-life work I’ve ever done with this fluoride fight,” Mark Gietzen, a conservative anti-abortion activist who helped draft the fluoride bills, told the Associated Press earlier this month. > > According to the Associated Press, the bill’s claims about fluoride and I.Q. comes from a 2012 Harvard study that focused on children in China, which unlike the U.S. has a high natural occurrence of fluoride in its water. > > The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention has recognized water fluoridation as “one of 10 great public health achievements of the 20th century.” How far we have not come . . . ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2014, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-not-a-conspiracy-theorist-but-maybe-they-are-on-to-something/685985/14 "2014-04-13T17:15:14Z")
The problem with saying “conspiracy theorists might be on to something” is that generally speaking, it isn’t labeled a conspiracy theory unless the majority of available experts are clearly against it. In this case, the vaaaaast majority of available experts are clearly and explicitly against it and have been for more than 50 years. One paper wouldn’t be enough to overturn it even if the paper said what CTers claim it says. ---
**Author:** ![RivkahChaya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rivkahchaya/32/8919_2.png) [@RivkahChaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RivkahChaya)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2014, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-not-a-conspiracy-theorist-but-maybe-they-are-on-to-something/685985/15 "2014-04-13T17:36:51Z")
Poison is in the dose. Water and oxygen can poison you in high enough doses. Too much protein can cause kidney damage. Most of the necessary vitamins and minerals we die without can also poison us in high doses. I would be shocked if there weren’t some lethal dose of fluoride at some point. Also, RE: the polio serum scare. There was a vaccine made by Cutter where the virus was not properly killed, and made some children sick, who then caused outbreaks in areas where the vaccination had not yet reached. But only the Cutter pharmacy made people sick, and the government was all over it, and it was pulled. It was a tragedy, but the incident does show what actually happens when an unsafe vaccine gets made. Another unsafe polio vaccine got made at one point, when the government was trying to cut costs-- the Sabin vaccine, and it did take a little time before the government caught on, the reason being that it wasn’t _that_ unsafe, not unsafe like the Cutter version of the Salk vaccine (the Salk vaccine, when prepared properly, is very, very safe); but again, once people figured out that it made a small number of children sick (children with minor immune system problems that had not been diagnosed), the government returned to the more expensive, but safer Salk vaccine. The Sabin vaccine could be administered orally, so anyone, not necessarily a medical person, could give it out; the Salk vaccine had to be injected, and required a doctor or nurse. That was what made the Salk vaccine more expensive. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2014, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-not-a-conspiracy-theorist-but-maybe-they-are-on-to-something/685985/16 "2014-04-13T17:56:40Z")
Reiterating that the fluoride level that was used to (supposedly) induce neurotoxicity in Swiss albino mice in that study was **30 times** the upper level of fluoride tolerated in drinking water by the EPA. The authors of the study get off to a very bad start by saying “the F toxicity through drinking water is well-recognized as a global problem.” Um, no it is not. It should be noted that there are communities in the U.S. with naturally high fluoride content in drinking water, and problems with neurotoxicity have not been identified (excess fluoride can cause pitting in teeth - a cosmetic problem). I would be skeptical about any paper that inaccurately cites a laundry list of health problems attributed to fluoride. Journals devoted to CAM (complementary and alternative medicine) don’t tend to enforce the most rigorous standards for research. In summary this is not a “smoking gun” but a very damp and fizzled firecracker. ---
**Author:** ![RivkahChaya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rivkahchaya/32/8919_2.png) [@RivkahChaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RivkahChaya)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2014, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-not-a-conspiracy-theorist-but-maybe-they-are-on-to-something/685985/17 "2014-04-13T18:04:37Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > In summary this is not a “smoking gun” but a very damp and fizzled firecracker. Reminds me of something an old friend used to say: “Sometimes, where there’s smoke, there’s not fire, but just a couple of guys a few tokes over the line.” ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2014, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-not-a-conspiracy-theorist-but-maybe-they-are-on-to-something/685985/18 "2014-04-13T18:12:20Z")
> [@tonyfop](#): > > Thanks! Now I get to go back over to Facebook and attempt to fight me some ignorance over there. Wish me luck, cause I’ll need it! Luck won’t help you argue with conspiracy theorists. You have good luck if you avoid them. Failing that, the best thing to do is not engage with them.