Glossing over a relevant related issue is expanding on the topic, not something random.
Ah. I am going to add one more thing. If a non-white guy logically points out white people being socially imposed & oppressed, it is a legitimate concern. (Eyesore.) If a white guy looks out for his own right, he is a “racist”. I am not white btw; I don’t mind linking to my photos if you want “proof” that my point wasn’t about a white guy looking after his own rights which must be a terrible thing to do.
FTR white guy checking in here. Like the OP I believe I understand what the term is meant to express on an intellectual level. As a person who undoubtedly tends to get hung up on definitions and usage, I can see how one might well argue that the term “privilege” is not the same as the absence of disadvantage. The legacy daughter applying to Yale who gets a leg-up because her father (or mother) is a wealthy benefactor is advantaged by her parents’ wealth and generosity, and not specifically because they are white. That said, the inertia of societal racism being what it is, it’s far more likely that the family in question is white. There’s no doubt about that. So the situation is rather ambiguous in general.
I gained a little more perspective when Barack Obama was elected. The election of the first African American president has been widely celebrated, and rightly so, as a demonstration of how the electorate can, at times, break with the inertia of the past. IIRC, however, on his mother’s side his background is Wonder Bread white, so he’s arguably as much white as he is African American.Yet it seems that most people consider him to be African American, plain and simple. The problem I have with that is that it seems to reinforce the subconscious notion that being white is the unqualified default, and to be of any other race–even if only half–is considered “other”–in this case, African American. This is something that people of color must have to face every single day, but in mainstream culture it’s very easy for a white person to overlook it completely.
One of the best and clearest examples of privilege available is when someone hears a description of the phenomenon described by the term, and their first reaction is, “Well, that’s not an accurate word to describe that.”
Right. Because that’s the big takeaway, here.
I’m white myself, so I may be talking out of my ass, here, but I imagine that’s not half as frustrating as the number of people who, on the election of the first black president of the United States, immediately started explaining how he’s “not really” black.
Bonus points when they try to explain it to a black person, which, in fairness, you haven’t quite done in this thread.
Yet.
When I was growing up on the public housing estate, I was underprivileged enough to qualify for free Xmas presents from organised charities. As a kid, I had no idea what underprivileged meant, but I appreciated the free toys. We got food hampers and other stuff too.
I didn’t learn till I was all growed up that my white skin means that I was in fact privileged the whole time. I hope I don’t have to give the toys back, they’re long gone now, as are the hand-me-down clothes, and we ate all the food. Sorry about that.
“White privilege” is a stupid concept dreamed up by over-educated middle class kids who have no fucking clue that poor people can be any colour. What they should call it is “middle class white privilege” and leave me, my family, and pretty much everyone from my part of town, right the fuck out of it.
Except that they aren’t referring to the kind of “privilege” associated with being middle class.
Economics is where the word privilege applies the most fully, since employment and college admissions etc. have some zero-sum aspects, so if other people are less likely to receive benefits in those areas, I am more likely to receive benefits.
But being relatively free of the threat of prejudice while other people are the recipient of it does not benefit me: in fact, it hurts me to a very small degree. It engenders hatred and resentment toward me, who has done nothing wrong. It would be better if there were no barriers so there would be less social friction.
It’s like we were controlled by alien overlords, and a group of people with stars on their belly were regularly subject to severe beatings. I do no have a star on my belly, so the aliens only subject me to whacks upside the head every once in a while. I do not receive a privilege from the situation: in fact, I am harmed by it to a degree. It would be better that no one receives beatings or smacks.
OP here. I am sorry I had to be away for a while. My wife and son are not feeling too well at the moment.
Anyway, I do appreciate all the posts (or most of them at least).
I do find the zero-sum discussion the most interesting because:
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It more of a new idea to me, and
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it could possibly be the best reason (to me) for “privilege” being a somewhat accurate word.
I can definitely grasp the idea that if some people are excluded from a limited number of opportunities, than those that are not-excluded may have a better than usual chance of gaining those limited opportunities.
However, on the other hand, I think it is pretty obvious that the heavy racial policies against blacks in the South in the 20th century economically hurt all inhabitants of the South as a whole (blacks more than whites of course, but it economically pulled everyone down).
Except they are, though. There are plenty of underprivileged white people, even in the US where you had the whole race-based slavery thing to skew the question. I am affected every day by people going on about how my people are lazy and criminal and parasites. I have personally experienced people being prejudiced against people like me. Until I lost my accent, I had people make fun of the way I talked, all the time. I have been excluded from things based on me being from the not-nice part of town. I experienced a level of violence and fear, growing up, that was certainly far greater than normal in my country, due to the culture of the shit-hole I’m from.
Now, it’s not hard to find people with worse backgrounds than me, but that does not make me privileged, by any real measure. For someone in a developed country, I had a fairly crap time of it and have struggled with the effects of that, and always will. People from the nice part of town do not get that. And that’s why they imagine that all white people are privileged - because they are, and they can’t really grasp that someone who looks more-or-less like themselves can be from a whole other culture.
“White privilege” means I don’t have to think about my race all the time. People who talk about “white privilege” are trying to get me to think about my race all the time.
But I have white privilege, so I don’t have to. 
Regards,
Shodan
Those policies may have damaged the entire Southern economy, but within the context of that economy, however it changed, individual white people would benefit at the expense of individual black people. Imagine a dispute over property – some field has been used for decades by a black family, but the neighboring white farmer claims that it’s been his field all along. A corrupt and biased court system will favor the white farmer most of the time, resulting in, effectively, theft of black property by white people. This kind of thing was, unfortunately, extremely common. Similarly, the casual and recurrent brutality of the Jim Crow system often drove black families to flee (see various “Great Migrations”) – the property they left behind would often inevitably land in the hands of white families.
The modern version is more insidious and (hopefully) not as extensive, but it comes in forms like petty misdemeanors and fines in places like Ferguson MO being overwhelmingly issued to black residents, with that money, earned by black people, going to a white-controlled city government to spend on projects that probably provide greater benefit and wealth to white residents. Even a biased justice system, which imprisons black people at a much higher rate, and gives them longer sentences in prison for the same crimes, financially benefits for-profit prison companies (and related services for prisons), which are mostly controlled by white people.
You have a simplistic understanding of privilege, one connected to wealth. In the context of this debate, that is entirely missing the point.
Privilege is relative, not absolute. Yes, there are advantages to wealth. Those are not the advantages that people are talking about. That’s why they’re using a different term. There are advantages to being white over not being white, even if you don’t have the advantages of being wealthy. Those are separate things.
I’ve made the same argument as Hermitian in other earlier threads; ultimately the concept of “white privilege” comes down to the perceived relative privileged-ness of white people versus not white people. But that relativity is what makes it somewhat absurd; if you take it out a little bit, you could argue that nearly everyone has “home privilege” relative to the homeless. Or that relative to a lot of Syrians, we have “non-shot-at privilege”.
The problem is where the lens is shooting from; if you always shoot from the perspective of the lesser group, ANYTHING better looks like privilege. I, for example, have “non-irritated-ass privilege” relative to my toddler son, who has diaper rash, because I enjoy the privilege of properly wiping my own butt instead of pooping in the diaper and then evading my parents when they try and check me.
I’m more partial to the approach of setting the lens at the mean, or maybe median, and then comparing from there. Then you have the concepts of under-privileged, normal and privileged, which are somewhat less perspective dependent and less relative, and that IMO are more relevant in terms of gauging someone’s actual privilege.
That said, the idea that minorities are treated differently has value, but I don’t think “privilege” is a good term to describe the white status quo. It’s too loaded with connotations of country clubs, butlers, and other trappings of wealth to not torque out of shape too many people who didn’t grow up that way.
No, you’re missing the point - a non-white person from a wealthy background has a fuckload more privilege than I do.
And, in fact, a friend of mine is from a very wealthy and privileged background, and is non-white. Now, I know he has experienced racism, but I also know that he’ll never be homeless and I’m hoping to fuck I never have to be again.
If you imagine that every white person is automatically better off than every non-white person, then you’re the one who’s being way too simplistic.
It’s not about more. It’s about different.
As a white person, you have some privileges your friend does not. As a wealthy person, he has some privileges you do not.
You’ll both understand each other better if you both understand how those facts shapes each other’s perspectives and appearances. Because yes, he should be sensitive to say, how you are unwelcome and ostracized in certain circles where he is welcome because of class issues, but you should be sensitive to how the same applies to him because of his race.
And there’s no point in comparing. It’s not about the net total.
I understand the point the OP is making and some of the time I am in situations where I would make the same statement whereas at other times I conclude that I really do possess white privilege.
The distinction for me is as follows:
• Some of the time, the advantages and benefits and luxuries and freedom available to me do not depend on an underclass of nonwhite people being exploited or deprived; in other words, if we had a magic wand and waved it and vaporized racism (from the institutionally entrenched variety down to the nasty-personal-attitude level), nothing would prevent everyone from having those same perquisites; there’s enough to go around.
• Some of the time, in contrast, the very possibility of me having those advantages and benefits and luxuries available is directly dependent on nonwhite people’s oppression; in other words, if we waved that same magic wand and got rid of racism, no one would have those options available to them.
I can’t always tell for sure, and as a white person I probably miscategorize some things in the less guilt-ridden less worrisome former category, but even with that disclaimer I’m thinking most areas where racism keeps nonwhite people down are of the first variety. In that sense I don’t benefit (for example) from nonwhite people being harassed and assaulted by police, being disproporionately accused of cheating on their scholastic exams, or from nonwhite cultural contributions in music film and literature being assigned “niche” designations or associated with gangsta or drug fringe activities and whatnot. (Although if I were a recording artist or actor perhaps I could not make that claim). I do benefit (whether I’m personally inclined to collect on it or not) from nonwhite women in massage salons being pressured to include sexual favors (if we assume that unequal economic opportunity is playing a role in maintaining that situation).
The term I hate is not “privilege”, but the commonly associated term “BENEFIT”. My dictionary definition of “benefit” is such that the having of the beneficial situation is a good thing, desirable to me. I do not consider that my life is a better life thanks to racism and the privileges of being white in a racist society. If I did, I’d enroll in the KKK and do what I could to promote more racism. Instead, I’m of the opinion that society as a whole is massively, spectacularly a better place to live when there is equality and fairness and the maximum amount of freedom and opportunity for everyone to pursue a life of their choosing. So when someone works hard to convince me that, no, I benefit, I’m tempted sometimes to throw my hands up in the air and say “OK, fine, you’ve convinced me. It’s in my best interest to be an oppressor. I’ll definitely quit working against my own interests and begin seeing what I can do to get my boot planted more firmly on your throat. Thanks for opening my eyes”.
You’re still talking about wealth. That isn’t relevant to this thread.
Class privilege is huge. It defines what sort of safety net you have to take risks. Provides connections that can give you a leg up. Determines if you are going to get taken seriously when house shopping. Sets your expectations in terms of college (upper middle class kids go to college, poor kids aren’t given that expectation by default). Class - as defined by behavior, not wealth - also helps you navigate the world of power - you learn the appropriate manners and small talk that will mark you as “one that belongs.”
I think what maybe would make sense in this thread is not so much the issue of class privilege of the upper middle class/wealthy, but the class privilege of the middle middle class. Is it fair to describe someone who grew up with a dad who was a mechanic and mom that cut hair as having “class privilege”? They certainly had advantages–substantial advantages–that truly poor kids didn’t, but I think it would chafe some people from that sort of background to be described as “privileged”–because middle-middle class means there were some pretty rough spots when expenses crept well ahead of income, and lots of seeing other people do things you couldn’t possibly afford to do.
I think a lot of people see being white as kind of like being “middle middle class”, and to call that “privileged” seems to be overstating the case. I disagree, myself, for both those situations: I find the concept of relative privilege to be very useful, because I think it’s important for people to see how the system does and does not work for them, which you cannot do if you feel like admitting you have any advantages is somehow the same as accepting culpability. But I also think virtually everyone has some sorts of privilege and is underprivileged in other ways. And that’s how the conversation should go–not to who has the biggest net gain or loss relative to some imaginary average.