# I am not a murderer, mutantmoose. You, however, are a twit.
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-not-a-murderer-mutantmoose-you-however-are-a-twit/494040
**Category:** The BBQ Pit
**Created:** [April 23, 2009, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-not-a-murderer-mutantmoose-you-however-are-a-twit/494040 "2009-04-23T00:42:49Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)
#### Post date: [April 23, 2009, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-not-a-murderer-mutantmoose-you-however-are-a-twit/494040/1 "2009-04-23T00:42:49Z")
First here’s the [thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=514699) in which he has vexed me. It began as a discussion of the woman in Germany who was mauled by polar bears in a zoo after going into their enclosure in what may have been a suicide attempt.
But it didn’t stay there (which is not to say that it’s been hijacked; it hasn’t been). First **mutantmoose** made the ridiculous assertion that non-human animals are more noble and honorable than humans, an assertion plausible only to someone who does not know what the words “nobility” or "honor’ mean. From there it has become a discussion about hunting. I explained why I hunt thus:
[QUOTE=me]
what hunters do is admit the truth that you are perversely refusing to acknowledge. Humans are animals. Like all animals, we live at the expense of other life. Moreover, we are predators, as attested to by our eyes and teeth. Our intelligence has allowed us to craft a society in which we are insulated from this truth, in which the cost of our lives is hidden from most of us, in which death is sanitized, in which most persons can pretend that their comfort is not bought with much labor and suffering.
But life isn’t like that. Animals on factory farms live miserable lives in "unnatural’ conditions. (I put unnatural in quotes because slaughterhouses are artifacts of man and have as much claim to being natural as beaver dams and bee hives.) They cannot run free. They cannot attempt to escape their fate, or defend themselves. Frequently they die in misery.
Now don’t misunderstand me. I don’t mean to get on a moral pedastal because I hunt; I eat meat from the supermarket too. But when my cousins and i go out with our bows, when my cousin Sam butchers the deer we have killed and we divide it up to put in our freezers, we are at least being HONEST with ourselves about what we’re doing, about what it means to be a meat-eater. If you eat meat from a butcher or store and think that makes you somehow morally superior to a man who hunts for food, you are not being honest with yourself.
When she was about 10 or 12, one of my nieces was watching a nature show about the African savannah. She was quite enchanted by the lion cubs, and equally so by the young gazelles; but she was dismayed and angered by the adult lions’ hunting gazelles, saying angrily that they were “mean” to kill gazelles as they were doing. She was being foolish, of course, but she had the excuse of being a child. What’s your excuse?
[/QUOTE]
The above passage prompted this:
> [@How many animal lives is one human life worth?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-animal-lives-is-one-human-life-worth/493662/92):
>
> ok maybe you use a high-powered rifle or a bow. They’re still potshots.
>
> Well, well done you! You can all congratulate yourselves for being HONEST with yourselves. Round of applause called for, I think .. clap, clap
>
> I’m being equally honest with myself when I buy a steak from the supermarket. I know it came from an animal but, unlike you, I don’t need to actually go out and shoot the poor thing myself. You’re not being honest, you just like to kill things.
>
> We all know what it means to be a meat eater- it means you eat animals. There’s a difference between that (a necessary evil, best done in well-regulated slaughterhouses) and actually enjoying the job. Volunteering to go out on your own time.
>
> Equally, you’re not on some higher level because you like shooting things.
>
> When you leave the house, you leave with murder in mind. You want to see blood before the end of the day. If you don’t get a kill before the end of the day you will consider the day a failure.
>
> What other walks of life are there where you would leave the house in that frame of mind? Where you must kill something or the day is a failure?
>
> Food. I covered all this above. That’s one of the (two) reasons they will attack something. So what? Likewise with a snake biting a horse or a person - self-defence. That’s the other reason they fight.
Until mutantmoose called me a murderer I was willing to slough off his awesome stupidity and self-delusion as the rantings of a diseased mind. But I don’t care to be insulted that way.
Killing an animal is not murder, **mutantmoose** , because murder is _the unjustified killing of a human being_. But that’s not really what vexes me. What vexes me is your smug, supercilous, self-righteous tone, your refusal to see the logical consequences of your frankly stupid argument. For, if killing an animal is murder, then you yourself are a murderer, one too cowardly to commit the act yourself. You PAY someone for meat. You PAY to contribute to a system that involves killing animals for your nutrition and culinary pleasure. You have no moral basis to criticize anyone who hunts only for food. Sadly, you are too dense and delusional to see that.
Of course, there is one way that you may not be guilty of murder, **MM**. Given your obvious lack of ratiocinative ability, it’s likely that a court would judge you not fit to stand trial. Certainly you’d fail the M’Naughten test.
Twit.
---
### Author:  [@BellRungBookShut-CandleSnuffed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BellRungBookShut-CandleSnuffed)
#### Post date: [April 23, 2009, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-not-a-murderer-mutantmoose-you-however-are-a-twit/494040/2 "2009-04-23T01:03:01Z")
I think the real crux of his argument (just from what you’ve quoted, didn’t read the other thread) is that slaughterhouses are more humane than shooting at something and maybe just wounding it. I think he’s wrong, but I’m not gonna go digging for cites. I think the murder thing was secondary.
Maybe I’m wrong, and I’m not defending him (or you-- I don’t have a dog in this fight). I just thought I’d give a second reading for you to consider before an argument gets going.
---
### Author:  [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimmy_Gibbler)
#### Post date: [April 23, 2009, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-not-a-murderer-mutantmoose-you-however-are-a-twit/494040/3 "2009-04-23T01:10:44Z")
> [@BellRungBookShut-CandleSnuffed](#):
>
> Maybe I’m wrong, and I’m not defending him (or you-- I don’t have a dog in this fight). I just thought I’d give a second reading for you to consider before an argument gets going.
Benefit of the doubt?!? Slowness to anger?!? A sense of proportion?!?
Is this your first time on the Internets?
---
### Author:  [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)
#### Post date: [April 23, 2009, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-not-a-murderer-mutantmoose-you-however-are-a-twit/494040/4 "2009-04-23T01:13:48Z")
S/he is pretty obviously either yanking your chain or is a whackjob eco-nutball in the extreme. Either way I’m uncertain you should waste your time on this person.
YMMV, but anyone who is claiming a rattle snake doesn’t inject a full measure of venom out of some kind of noble spirit is…well, pretty out there.
-XT
---
### Author:  [@mutantmoose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mutantmoose)
#### Post date: [April 23, 2009, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-not-a-murderer-mutantmoose-you-however-are-a-twit/494040/5 "2009-04-23T01:16:59Z")
Well, at first blush, the accusation of murder seems a bit strong so I re-examined my words.
I said that you left the house “with murder in mind” so I wondered whether maybe I had succumbed to the lure of alliteration and exaggerated - murder in mind (sounds good). So I rethought it all and looked up the word “murder” on [dictionary.com](http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/murder).
And it turns out I was right. It is murder after all:
> [@](#):
>
> –verb (used with object) 4. Law. to kill by an act constituting murder.
> **5. to kill or slaughter inhumanly or barbarously.**
> 6. to spoil or mar by bad performance, representation, pronunciation, etc.: The tenor murdered the aria.
So you are a murderer after all. Congratulations!
---
### Author:  [@Captain\_Carrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Carrot)
#### Post date: [April 23, 2009, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-not-a-murderer-mutantmoose-you-however-are-a-twit/494040/6 "2009-04-23T01:19:28Z")
> [@mutantmoose](#):
>
> Well, at first blush, the accusation of murder seems a bit strong so I re-examined my words.
>
> I said that you left the house “with murder in mind” so I wondered whether maybe I had succumbed to the lure of alliteration and exaggerated - murder in mind (sounds good). So I rethought it all and looked up the word “murder” on [dictionary.com](http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/murder).
>
> And it turns out I was right. It is murder after all:
>
> So you are a murderer after all. Congratulations!
You’re an idiot. Hunting is rarely done inhumanly or barbarously. Shooting something doesn’t count as being inhuman.
---
### Author:  [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)
#### Post date: [April 23, 2009, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-not-a-murderer-mutantmoose-you-however-are-a-twit/494040/7 "2009-04-23T01:20:20Z")
Y’know, I have a bit of sympathy for animal-rights vegans who have really thought the issue through and who consider meat to be “murder,” with murder defined as an immoral killing of a moral subject. I disagree with them, but I’ve read my Peter Singer and my Tom Reagan, and I know that you can make a detailed, coherent, robust argument for granting moral rights to certain nonhumans.
Further, I reject any defense of meat-eating among humans that rests on a naturalistic argument. There’s plenty of stuff that we do “naturally” (infanticide and rape, for example) that we condemn as immoral and unethical. The fact that our biology gives us competitive advantages is wholly irrelevant from the standpoint of moral philosophy–at least from the branches in which I find myself comfortable.
But **mutantmoose** is just being an idiot.
Daniel
---
### Author:  [@Fantome](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fantome)
#### Post date: [April 23, 2009, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-not-a-murderer-mutantmoose-you-however-are-a-twit/494040/8 "2009-04-23T01:21:04Z")
From the thread linked to in the OP:
> [@How many animal lives is one human life worth?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-animal-lives-is-one-human-life-worth/493662/85):
>
> A deer I go out and kill has led a freer and probably more pleasant life than one raised on a factory farm.
> [@How many animal lives is one human life worth?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-many-animal-lives-is-one-human-life-worth/493662/86):
>
> And it would have continued to lead a pleasant, free life if you hadn’t showed up and shot it.
And **mutantmoose** admits to being a meat eater. :rolleyes:
---
### Author:  [@Happy\_Scrappy\_Hero\_Pup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Scrappy_Hero_Pup)
#### Post date: [April 23, 2009, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-not-a-murderer-mutantmoose-you-however-are-a-twit/494040/9 "2009-04-23T01:23:36Z")
**mutantmoose** does actually eat meat, but from a butcher shop.
**Skald** kills his own food.
So, if killing animals is murder, at least **Skald** is man enough to do it himself rather than subcontract the work out like some chump.
---
### Author:  [@BellRungBookShut-CandleSnuffed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BellRungBookShut-CandleSnuffed)
#### Post date: [April 23, 2009, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-not-a-murderer-mutantmoose-you-however-are-a-twit/494040/10 "2009-04-23T01:24:07Z")
> [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](#):
>
> Benefit of the doubt?!? Slowness to anger?!? A sense of proportion?!?
>
> Is this your first time on the Internets?
a/s/l??
---
### Author:  [@Zabali\_Clawbane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zabali_Clawbane)
#### Post date: [April 23, 2009, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-not-a-murderer-mutantmoose-you-however-are-a-twit/494040/11 "2009-04-23T01:27:15Z")
> [@mutantmoose](#):
>
> Well, at first blush, the accusation of murder seems a bit strong so I re-examined my words.
>
> I said that you left the house “with murder in mind” so I wondered whether maybe I had succumbed to the lure of alliteration and exaggerated - murder in mind (sounds good). So I rethought it all and looked up the word “murder” on [dictionary.com](http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/murder).
>
> And it turns out I was right. It is murder after all:
>
> So you are a murderer after all. Congratulations!
The creatures that **Skald** hunts live free, and die free. That is more “humane” than being a goose meant to be foie gras, for example, by FAR! :dubious:
---
### Author:  [@Baker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baker)
#### Post date: [April 23, 2009, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-not-a-murderer-mutantmoose-you-however-are-a-twit/494040/12 "2009-04-23T01:38:05Z")
**mutantmoose** ’s thinking sounds like that of the idiots who are for the death penalty(human) but won’t inject/shoot/hang/throw the switch on the condemned.
If you want to eat(or execute) something you should be able, or at least willing, to do the deed yourself.
---
### Author:  [@Green\_Cymbeline](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Green_Cymbeline)
#### Post date: [April 23, 2009, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-not-a-murderer-mutantmoose-you-however-are-a-twit/494040/13 "2009-04-23T01:39:39Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#):
>
> Killing an animal is not murder, **mutantmoose** , because murder is _the unjustified killing of a human being_.
What, then, _do you_ call the unjustified killing of a wild animal?
Of course, you probably justify this killing by saying that you’re going to eat the animal.
Which would be justifiable if you lived in a time and place where you could only get meat by hunting it. But that doesn’t apply anywhere in modern America.
One should examine the difference between wild animals (such as deer) and species which have been domesticated and raised for thousands of years by humans solely as a food source (cows, chickens - which are not animals which you will find free in the wild).
---
### Author:  [@mutantmoose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mutantmoose)
#### Post date: [April 23, 2009, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-not-a-murderer-mutantmoose-you-however-are-a-twit/494040/14 "2009-04-23T01:41:32Z")
> [@](#):
>
> Hunting is rarely done inhumanly or barbarously. Shooting something doesn’t count as being inhuman.
Taking potshots at something from 50 yards away is not as humane as a well-regulated slaughterhouse.
> [@](#):
>
> And mutantmoose admits to being a meat eater.
> [@](#):
>
> So, if killing animals is murder, at least Skald is man enough to do it himself rather than subcontract the work out like some chump.
I’m not so concerned about the “eaters”. It’s more the motivations of the “killers”.
Skald also eats meat from stores. It’s not a question of being “man enough”. He doesn’t _have_ to kill to eat. He kills because he likes to kill. Why, I don’t know.
> [@](#):
>
> The creatures that Skald hunts live free, and die free.
Die free? Die free?
What the fuck is that supposed to mean? How can you die free?
> [@](#):
>
> if you want to eat(or execute) something you should be able, or at least willing, to do the deed yourself.
There’s a difference between accepting execution as a necessary evil and being overly enthusiatic to actually do it yourself.
---
### Author:  [@Captain\_Carrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Carrot)
#### Post date: [April 23, 2009, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-not-a-murderer-mutantmoose-you-however-are-a-twit/494040/15 "2009-04-23T01:42:45Z")
> [@nyctea scandiaca](#):
>
> What, then, _do you_ call the unjustified killing of a wild animal?
>
> Of course, you probably justify this killing by saying that you’re going to eat the animal.
>
> Which would be justifiable if you lived in a time and place where you could only get meat by hunting it. But that doesn’t apply anywhere in modern America.
The hell? Since when is killing an animal to eat it only acceptable if that’s your sole source of food?
---
### Author:  [@Captain\_Carrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Carrot)
#### Post date: [April 23, 2009, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-not-a-murderer-mutantmoose-you-however-are-a-twit/494040/16 "2009-04-23T01:44:00Z")
> [@mutantmoose](#):
>
> Taking potshots at something from 50 yards away is not as humane as a well-regulated slaughterhouse.
And when people do that, it’s fairly contemptible. But that’s not the way hunting usually goes. By the way, how many slaughterhouses do you think are ‘well-regulated’?
---
### Author:  [@Fantome](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fantome)
#### Post date: [April 23, 2009, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-not-a-murderer-mutantmoose-you-however-are-a-twit/494040/17 "2009-04-23T01:54:00Z")
> [@mutantmoose](#):
>
> I’m not so concerned about the “eaters”. It’s more the motivations of the “killers”.
**Skald** said:
> [@](#):
>
> A deer I go out and kill has led a freer and probably more pleasant life than one raised on a factory farm.
Your reply:
> [@](#):
>
> And it would have continued to lead a pleasant, free life if you hadn’t showed up and shot it.
How is that about the motivation of the killers? That’s a hypocritical reply as it comes from someone who eats meat himself. By eating meat, you are contributing to the killing of animals that either would have “lead a pleasant, free life” or not have been bread to be killed at all. The motivation of the killer doesn’t come into play in the above argument.
And do you know what the motivation of all hunters are? Some like the taste of wild game that generally isn’t found in a supermarket just as you enjoy your animals that have been killed by someone else.
---
### Author:  [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)
#### Post date: [April 23, 2009, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-not-a-murderer-mutantmoose-you-however-are-a-twit/494040/18 "2009-04-23T01:55:16Z")
> [@mutantmoose](#):
>
> He kills because he likes to kill.
And some like to to hire others to do their animal killing for them.
Those two groups _insultingly_ cover everyone except plant murdering vegetarian fiends.
Personally, I can live without the insults.
---
### Author:  [@Fantome](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fantome)
#### Post date: [April 23, 2009, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-not-a-murderer-mutantmoose-you-however-are-a-twit/494040/19 "2009-04-23T01:57:14Z")
> [@nyctea scandiaca](#):
>
> One should examine the difference between wild animals (such as deer) and species which have been domesticated and raised for thousands of years by humans solely as a food source (cows, chickens - which are not animals which you will find free in the wild).
How is how many years an animal species has been domesticated and the reason for it being solely as a food source relevant?
---
### Author:  [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)
#### Post date: [April 23, 2009, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-not-a-murderer-mutantmoose-you-however-are-a-twit/494040/20 "2009-04-23T01:58:41Z")
> [@Captain\_Carrot](#):
>
> how many slaughterhouses do you think are ‘well-regulated’?
Didn’t PETA or someone sneak cameras into one of McDonald’s McChicken factories a few years ago, and discover it was a workers paradise for the birds?
They started a boycott over it or something.
Ah, here: [http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P2-9920304.html](http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P2-9920304.html)
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