# I am not a murderer, mutantmoose. You, however, are a twit. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 23, 2009, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-not-a-murderer-mutantmoose-you-however-are-a-twit/494040 "2009-04-23T00:42:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2009, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-not-a-murderer-mutantmoose-you-however-are-a-twit/494040/101 "2009-04-24T01:21:49Z")
> [@mutantmoose](#): > > I ain’t rabid, my friend - you’re the killer here, not me. > > I agree that animals don’t care whether the hunter is enjoying the process. But I’m not talking about the animals, I’m talking about the killers. > > Why kill? > > Just answer me that one simple question. Why kill? Surely it’s easier **not** to kill than to kill. You stupid, smug, pompous, perverse, hypocritical, self-deluded, fuckwitted waste of protoplasm–YOU ARE PARTICIPATING IN THE KILLING WHEN YOU BUY A CHEESEBURGER!!! YOU ARE PAYING SOMEONE TO DO THE KILLING FOR YOU!! People are not objecting to the claim that hunting is immoral _per se_–at least I am not. We are objecting to the claim that **hunting for food** is immoral but **eating cheeseburgers** is not. The cattle from whom cheeseburgers are made do not volunteer to become lunch because they are tired of life or because they know, deep in their hearts, that they were created by Demeter to serve as provender. They are kept captive by force and used for a purpose THAT DOES NOT BENEFIT THEM. There is NO moral superiority in buying your meat from Sam the Butcher versus killing and slaughtering it yourself. There may be moral INFERIORITY, because the butcher’s customer gets to lie to himself about the nature of his act and his place in the scheme of things. YOU ARE PART OF THE NATURAL WORLD. A remarkably stupid part, true, but a part nonetheless. ---
**Author:** ![mutantmoose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a87d85/32.png) [@mutantmoose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mutantmoose)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2009, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-not-a-murderer-mutantmoose-you-however-are-a-twit/494040/102 "2009-04-24T01:22:20Z")
I’m certainly in favour of more humane treatment of farmed animals than exists at the moment. But there’s still a difference between that and being willing to go one step further and actually go out and kill them yourself, _in your spare time_. Farmers and slaughterhouse workers do it as a job. It’s how they earn their keep. However cruel it is, their motivations are money - earning a living. Some of the people in this thread, however, do it as a hobby. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2009, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-not-a-murderer-mutantmoose-you-however-are-a-twit/494040/103 "2009-04-24T01:27:12Z")
> [@mutantmoose](#): > > I’m certainly in favour of more humane treatment of farmed animals than exists at the moment. But there’s still a difference between that and being willing to go one step further and actually go out and kill them yourself, _in your spare time_. > > Farmers and slaughterhouse workers do it as a job. It’s how they earn their keep. However cruel it is, their motivations are money - earning a living. Some of the people in this thread, however, do it as a hobby. We’re talking about the eaters here. Some people kill as a hobby. Others, like you, pay people a pittance to kill for them. And you do it as a hobby. You don’t have to eat that bacon, but you do anyway, because you take pleasure in it. Monster. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2009, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-not-a-murderer-mutantmoose-you-however-are-a-twit/494040/104 "2009-04-24T01:35:02Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > [QUOTE=mutantmoose] > > I’m certainly in favour of more humane treatment of farmed animals than exists at the moment. But there’s still a difference between that and being willing to go one step further and actually go out and kill them yourself, in your spare time. Farmers and slaughterhouse workers do it as a job. It’s how they earn their keep. However cruel it is, their motivations are money - earning a living. Some of the people in this thread, however, do it as a hobby. We’re talking about the eaters here. Some people kill as a hobby. Others, like you, pay people a pittance to kill for them. And you do it as a hobby. You don’t have to eat that bacon, but you do anyway, because you take pleasure in it. Monster. [/QUOTE] [Grendel] I protest! I protest very strongly! I will NOT be associated with **mutantmoose**! Don’t make me do to you what I did to that guard in Hrothgar’s meadhall! You know the one I mean? With the suspicious-looking ears? His name was…um…Well, I don’t know his name, because I bit his head off and drank his blood like a Mountain Dew before I could ask his name, and afterwards there was too much screaming and crying and oh-Odin-mommy-what-did-that-monster-to-daddy going on for me to ask anybody! What was I talking about? Oh, right. Calling **mutantmoose** a monster. I protest. I am a monster. So is my mother. I come from a long line of monsters. We’ve been monstering it up all over Scandanavia since Hector was a pup. I, personally, sent 239 warriors to Valhalla this decade, and ravished all but 4 of their wives before eating them too. I KNOW about monsters. **mutantmoose** is not one of my ilk, as we are honest. [/grendel] ---
**Author:** ![mutantmoose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a87d85/32.png) [@mutantmoose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mutantmoose)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2009, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-not-a-murderer-mutantmoose-you-however-are-a-twit/494040/105 "2009-04-24T01:40:41Z")
> [@](#): > > We’re talking about the eaters here. I’m not. I’m talking about the killers. And since this thread is about me then surely at least _some_ importance should be placed on what I’m actually saying rather than on what you would like the thread to be about. > [@](#): > > Some people kill as a hobby. Others, like you, pay people a pittance to kill for them The people I pay to kill for me do it as a job. A grim task. They’re not doing it just for kicks. There is a definite difference here, between the two things. Killing for fun and killing for profit. > [@](#): > > You stupid, smug, pompous, perverse, hypocritical, self-deluded, fuckwitted waste of protoplasm Love you too, sweetheart xx ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2009, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-not-a-murderer-mutantmoose-you-however-are-a-twit/494040/106 "2009-04-24T01:41:12Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > Oh, right. Calling **mutantmoose** a monster. I protest. Oh, bitch, bitch, bitch, Grendel. If I have to call W. a human, you can just suck it. Besides, he’s a monster more in the [nilbog](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goblin_(Dungeons_%26_Dragons)#Goblin_Sub-races) or [flumph](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flumph) vein than in the ancient Scandinavian terror vein. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2009, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-not-a-murderer-mutantmoose-you-however-are-a-twit/494040/107 "2009-04-24T01:42:14Z")
> [@mutantmoose](#): > > The people I pay to kill for me do it as a job. A grim task. They’re not doing it just for kicks. There is a definite difference here, between the two things. Killing for fun and killing for profit. That’s right: those people aren’t to blame. YOU ARE. You’re the one hiring them, and YOU’RE doing it for fun. You’re willing to pay people to inflict terrible suffering on animals just so you can have the fun of eating bacon. Monster. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Carrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@Captain\_Carrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Carrot)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2009, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-not-a-murderer-mutantmoose-you-however-are-a-twit/494040/108 "2009-04-24T01:47:43Z")
> [@mutantmoose](#): > > The people I pay to kill for me do it as a job. A grim task. They’re not doing it just for kicks. There is a definite difference here, between the two things. Killing for fun and killing for profit. That is not the only difference, you pusillanimous cowardly microcephalic leprous pissant. Factory meat farming is done in horrible conditions, and hunting is generally, if anything, physically uncomfortable for the hunter, what with the scouting of a potential site, and the lying for hours trying to be motionless, and all that stuff. But according to you, the former is fine, and the latter is abominable, because you don’t want to stop eating meat or condemning those who do it humanely. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2009, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-not-a-murderer-mutantmoose-you-however-are-a-twit/494040/109 "2009-04-24T01:48:47Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > That’s right: those people aren’t to blame. YOU ARE. You’re the one hiring them, and YOU’RE doing it for fun. You’re willing to pay people to inflict terrible suffering on animals just so you can have the fun of eating bacon. > > Monster. :: looks around warily, then tosses LHoD the remote control to the transporter :: Put that in your pocket, amigo. If you hear thunderous battering noises on the door to the meadhall tonight, do NOT get up and check to see what it is. 'Port yourself the hell out of there and investigate via robot probe. And don’t worry about being thought a coward for running. Running keeps you alive. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2009, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-not-a-murderer-mutantmoose-you-however-are-a-twit/494040/110 "2009-04-24T01:56:10Z")
> [@mutantmoose](#): > > The people I pay to kill for me do it as a job. A grim task. They’re not doing it just for kicks. What, then, is your justification for hiring killers? ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2009, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-not-a-murderer-mutantmoose-you-however-are-a-twit/494040/111 "2009-04-24T02:02:58Z")
It’s a generally accepted principal in most legal and ethical systems that the person who hires the hitman is just as guilty of the murder as the one who pulls the trigger. I’m curious how our resident Bullwinkle reconciles this fact with his stated willingness to pay for the senseless genocide of cheeseburger beasts. But I do not suspect an answer will be forthcoming. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2009, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-not-a-murderer-mutantmoose-you-however-are-a-twit/494040/112 "2009-04-24T02:06:01Z")
> [@friedo](#): > > It’s a generally accepted principal in most legal and ethical systems that the person who hires the hitman is just as guilty of the murder as the one who pulls the trigger. > > I’m curious how our resident Bullwinkle reconciles this fact with his stated willingness to pay for the senseless genocide of cheeseburger beasts. But I do not suspect an answer will be forthcoming. Oh, it’s not his fault. He’s too busy chowing down on goat steaks under his bridge. (He pays someone else to kill the goats, of course.) 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_fun_ball/32/17664_2.png) [@Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Fun_Ball)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2009, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-not-a-murderer-mutantmoose-you-however-are-a-twit/494040/113 "2009-04-24T02:16:25Z")
Well, the thread seems to have devolved. **Mutantmoose** , I personally think you are very wrong and I guess that your opinion is derived from ignorance. Whatever, I don’t much care, but on the off chance that ignorance will be fought, I recommend you get to know some hunters and learn more about the management of hunted species and ecosystems by hunting groups like ducks unlimited. Again (as I said in the spawning thread), I am not a hunter as I just cannot bring myself to shoot a living creature (though I have tried), but the hunters I know are more deeply and sincerely respectful of the animals they hunt and the ecosystems they live in than anyone I have ever met. They are much more cognizant and respectful of what they are doing than I would guess you are when you buy a hamburger; they really think about it and empathize with the animal and the ecosystem. There is nothing casual about hunting. And since this is the pit: You, sir, are a moron. ---
**Author:** ![mutantmoose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a87d85/32.png) [@mutantmoose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mutantmoose)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2009, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-not-a-murderer-mutantmoose-you-however-are-a-twit/494040/114 "2009-04-24T02:30:07Z")
> [@Captain\_Carrot](#): > > you pusillanimous cowardly microcephalic leprous pissant. First of all, can we lay the “coward” thing to rest? I’m not cowardly. If I needed to kill an animal in order to live I would kill it in a second without a thought. I’m not anti-kill in all situations. But I live in a society where I don’t need to kill any animals so it’s not a problem. If I needed to do it, I would. But I don’t, so I don’t. Nothing to do with cowardice. > [@](#): > > What, then, is your justification for hiring killers? You seem to think this is a killer argument but it’s not as good as you think it is. My justification for hiring killers is food. I need to eat. Food is one of the two reasons animals attack, the other being self-defence (as I mentioned in the other thread). I need there to be animal-killing going on because I need to eat. I have no problem with that. That’s one of the two valid reasons to attack something. Hunters, though, aren’t attacking for either food or self-defence. So why are they attacking at all then … remind me? Turning your question on it’s head: What is your justification for being a killer? ---
**Author:** ![mutantmoose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a87d85/32.png) [@mutantmoose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mutantmoose)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2009, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-not-a-murderer-mutantmoose-you-however-are-a-twit/494040/115 "2009-04-24T02:35:38Z")
> [@L. G. Butts](#): > > Well, the thread seems to have devolved. **Mutantmoose** , I personally think you are very wrong and I guess that your opinion is derived from ignorance. Whatever, I don’t much care, but on the off chance that ignorance will be fought, I recommend you get to know some hunters and learn more about the management of hunted species and ecosystems by hunting groups like ducks unlimited. Again (as I said in the spawning thread), I am not a hunter as I just cannot bring myself to shoot a living creature (though I have tried), but the hunters I know are more deeply and sincerely respectful of the animals they hunt and the ecosystems they live in than anyone I have ever met. They are much more cognizant and respectful of what they are doing than I would guess you are when you buy a hamburger; they really think about it and empathize with the animal and the ecosystem. There is nothing casual about hunting. > > And since this is the pit: You, sir, are a moron. Thank you for your highly patronising post. I’ll take it under advisement. I agree that hunters are often very knowledgable about wildlife but don’t try to make out they’re the only ones. Botanists, zoologists, ornithologists etc are also very knowledgable but they don’t feel the need to shoot things. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2009, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-not-a-murderer-mutantmoose-you-however-are-a-twit/494040/116 "2009-04-24T02:36:22Z")
> [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](#): > > It seems to me that there are negative things associated with factory farming and fishing that are not found with hunting and fishing as an individual. > > Large scale fishing is very inefficient, killing a significant [bycatch](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bycatch) which goes to waste, and in the case of draggers, damaging the seafloor. Individual fisherpeople however, produce a relatively small bycatch and minimal environmental damage. > > Large scale livestock production uses grains that could be used for human food, produces a lot of methane (a greenhouse gas) as well as runoff and [eutrophication](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eutrophication) . Hunting involves occasional accidents, and some lead pollution. > > So…shouldn’t we be banning factory farming and commercial fishing as unethical, and encouraging large well-regulated tracts of land for hunting and fishing? I actually think that farm-raised fish and free-range chicken, deer etcetera are a great idea. Especially farm-raised fish, as it preserves the food supply without overfishing. None of them taste the same though. Game animals are exactly that…hunted in the wild, and when herded or otherwise raised and regulated against their natural instincts to roam, are affected WRT flavor (which is important to me and perhaps to gourmands the world over). I don’t know. I find it hard to care much about a stupid bovine, bird or fish other than it not needlessly suffer in order to wind up in my supermarket or on my dinner plate. ---
**Author:** ![Zabali\_Clawbane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/ecd19e/32.png) [@Zabali\_Clawbane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zabali_Clawbane)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2009, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-not-a-murderer-mutantmoose-you-however-are-a-twit/494040/117 "2009-04-24T02:36:29Z")
> [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > Hey, hey, hey! > 😃 > > I for one don’t give a damn about how foie gras is produced. Ducks are used for domestic foie gras. So a woman(the ducks respond better to women, IIRC) has a gaggle of ducks in upstate NY that follow her around and she has a feeding pack on her back with a tube coming off of it whereby she inserts it into their throats, and they eat and eat and eat a bunch of grains. > > They get very thirsty from overeating, then they go to a trough and drink like crazy. Rinse, lather, repeat, the duck eventually has an oversized liver that is harvested in due time. > > How is that any more inhumane than massive chicken farms, pig farms for bacon, etc? > > It’s not. And who cares about a stupid food bird anyway. It’s fucking good. So good it’s…evil? My understanding of the process on a mass scale is, they keep the ducks and geese on a little perch, with no room to move at all, so they atrophy. They live to eat too much, (and no doubt suffer from being so fat and unhealthy) then they die and are made into foie gras. Is my understanding of how it works off some? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Carrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@Captain\_Carrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Carrot)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2009, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-not-a-murderer-mutantmoose-you-however-are-a-twit/494040/118 "2009-04-24T02:36:40Z")
> [@mutantmoose](#): > > I need there to be animal-killing going on because I need to eat. I have no problem with that. That’s one of the two valid reasons to attack something. Hunters, though, aren’t attacking for either food or self-defence. So why are they attacking at all then … remind me? Hunters hunt for food, you complete fucking moron. Also, deer aren’t all Bambis frolicking in the beautiful meadow. They’re pests in many areas, and cause a lot of property damage (and some deaths) in some areas where their predators are mostly gone. Hunting deer is usually good for the environment, and that does not fit into either of your pathetic categories. > [@mutantmoose](#): > > First of all, can we lay the “coward” thing to rest? I’m not cowardly. If I needed to kill an animal in order to live I would kill it in a second without a thought. I’m not anti-kill in all situations. You’re just anti-kill when it means the animal has lived a good life, as opposed to being crammed in a slaughterhouse. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2009, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-not-a-murderer-mutantmoose-you-however-are-a-twit/494040/119 "2009-04-24T02:37:38Z")
> [@mutantmoose](#): > > First of all, can we lay the “coward” thing to rest? I’m not cowardly. If I needed to kill an animal in order to live I would kill it in a second without a thought. I’m not anti-kill in all situations. > > But I live in a society where I don’t need to kill any animals so it’s not a problem. If I needed to do it, I would. But I don’t, so I don’t. > > Nothing to do with cowardice. > > You seem to think this is a killer argument but it’s not as good as you think it is. **My justification for hiring killers is food. I need to eat**. Food is one of the two reasons animals attack, the other being self-defence (as I mentioned in the other thread). > > I need there to be animal-killing going on because I need to eat. I have no problem with that. That’s one of the two valid reasons to attack something. Hunters, though, aren’t attacking for either food or self-defence. So why are they attacking at all then … remind me? > > Turning your question on it’s head: > > What is your justification for being a killer? But you don’t NEED to eat meat…you just like it. ---
**Author:** ![Nzinga\_Seated](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b5ac83/32.png) [@Nzinga\_Seated](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nzinga_Seated)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2009, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-not-a-murderer-mutantmoose-you-however-are-a-twit/494040/120 "2009-04-24T02:40:55Z")
Deleted post because it is no fun to play when someone else beats you to what you were going to say. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-not-a-murderer-mutantmoose-you-however-are-a-twit/494040.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-not-a-murderer-mutantmoose-you-however-are-a-twit/494040.md?page=7)