# "I am not anti-guns. I am anti-bullet holes in my patients." **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [November 9, 2018, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-not-anti-guns-i-am-anti-bullet-holes-in-my-patients/824268 "2018-11-09T23:42:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![Lamoral](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lamoral/32/16078_2.png) [@Lamoral](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamoral)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2018, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-not-anti-guns-i-am-anti-bullet-holes-in-my-patients/824268/222 "2018-11-15T19:14:12Z")
Are you sure that something like this could not be worked out within the limits of our existing due process? I’m asking because you probably know more about it than I do. I admit I am speaking on this from a layman’s perspective. I don’t know all the legal ramificiations of it…but by all means they should be discussed. ---
**Author:** ![Lamoral](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lamoral/32/16078_2.png) [@Lamoral](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamoral)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2018, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-not-anti-guns-i-am-anti-bullet-holes-in-my-patients/824268/223 "2018-11-15T19:22:31Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > Again, the government has worked very hard to reduce the number of people harmed by tobacco. The nice thing about tobacco is that you really only harm yourself with it. If only that was true with guns… With vaping now available to deliver nicotine without tobacco, and the tobacco industry poised to potentially make insane amounts of money by selling cannabis products, I’d say the possibility of banning tobacco - at least cigarettes, maybe not cigars - is becoming more feasible than ever. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2018, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-not-anti-guns-i-am-anti-bullet-holes-in-my-patients/824268/224 "2018-11-15T19:31:16Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > That’s a lovely sentiment right there. It’s heartwarming, really. Yeah, that reality stuff can be hard to grasp. I can see that it is for you. > [@](#): > > You know what I think is pretty small? The right to own a toy. All things considered, your right to own a toy to play with, that’s pretty small. The fact that you rank that right higher than the right of people to not be shot and killed, is pretty telling. As I said, to you it’s a toy…to others it’s many other things. As for what I, myself rank, you haven’t got a fucking clue what I rank because you are so busy whining about reality and assuming you know everything. > [@](#): > > Thanks for voting to ensure that I don’t have the right to not be shot and killed so that you can own some toys. I also thank you for voting “Pro-Toy” to ensure that my son gets to practice active shooter drills at school. I love when those emails come home, school is where kids are supposed to learn important life skills, like where to hide when some kook with a toy breaks into your school. Thanks for assuming you know how I vote. Oh, and hopefully you didn’t do yourself an injury, patting yourself on the back. BTW, what’s your vote on the pro-alcohol ballot? I assume you are for it…probably drink the stuff yourself. Thanks for condemning literally 10’s of thousands to death while being smugly self-righteous about guns and calling them ‘toys’. > [@](#): > > We did try it once, didn’t work so well. Of course, the government HAS spent decades working to reduce the number of people harmed by alcohol.Again, the government has worked very hard to reduce the number of people harmed by tobacco. The nice thing about tobacco is that you really only harm yourself with it. If only that was true with guns… Yet a lot more people die each year from those things, regardless of what the government has done. For that matter, the government has attempted to do similar things with guns. California, for example, has some of the most stringent gun control legislature of any state. And you know what? The trend for gun violence is down over the past 20 years as well. Oh, and I’ve seen estimates of the number of people who die in the US from second hand smoke each year that range from 7-10k. Bit more than that 440 you were so worked up about. Are you worked up equally about this or alcohol or the other things our society does that result in folks dying? Of course you aren’t because that’s different and guns are toys (unlike drinking or smoking or taking drugs which have real purposes). ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2018, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-not-anti-guns-i-am-anti-bullet-holes-in-my-patients/824268/225 "2018-11-15T20:22:25Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > According to you, we could reduce murders by 4% by targeting them. That seems like a reason to me. > > But we won’t because they’re fun to shoot. > > That’s NRA logic right there. Sure, maybe 4%. Unless other guns fill in the gap- which of course they would. But that 4% is a statistical nothing, about in line with the margin of error. We wouldn’t even notice it. ---
**Author:** ![Lamoral](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lamoral/32/16078_2.png) [@Lamoral](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamoral)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2018, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-not-anti-guns-i-am-anti-bullet-holes-in-my-patients/824268/226 "2018-11-15T20:24:06Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Oh, and I’ve seen estimates of the number of people who die in the US from second hand smoke each year that range from 7-10k. Bit more than that 440 you were so worked up about. Are you worked up equally about this or alcohol or the other things our society does that result in folks dying? Of course you aren’t because that’s different and guns are toys (unlike drinking or smoking or taking drugs which have real purposes). I don’t think it’s unreasonable that people get more worked up about mass shooting deaths than deaths caused by long term consequences of things like smoking and drinking. People are not robotic actuarial machines, they do have emotions and the idea of a mass of innocent people just going about their lives and suddenly being massacred is going to resonate on a deeper level than the other kind of deaths. It’s the same reason why mass shootings get more attention and elicit more emotion than the street crime that accounts for the majority of gun homicides to begin with. Waking up to a news report of 15 people suddenly shot to death at a school or church is fucking demoralizing. Especially when the same thing just happened mere days ago in a different incident. It’s getting to the point of being a collectively-shared national tragedy and I think it does need to be compartmentalized from the other forms of violence and death that society deals with. It needs to be addressed as a specific problem. There are a lot of potential solutions being put forth to deal with it and the ones that have the greatest chance of being enacted, should be the ones that receive the most energy and political momentum. The pro-gun and anti-gun side _need to find some kind of common ground_ if that is going to happen. That means the advocates for the needed change are going to have to take all the cultural baggage, group-think, and values of America’s gun owners into consideration if any meaningful legislation is to be enacted. That is just how our system works. Saying “the system is fucked up!” isn’t going to help. You can _think_ it all you want, but making it part of the public discourse just isn’t going to yield results. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2018, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-not-anti-guns-i-am-anti-bullet-holes-in-my-patients/824268/227 "2018-11-15T20:33:17Z")
> [@JB99](#): > > 1. … I’m ready to ban all automatics/semiautomatics, handguns and long guns, anything with more than six shots, and anything with a detachable box magazine. That is the definition I’m working from. > > …If you own one of these guns because you think it is fun, that tells me that you consider your personal amusement more important than the lives of 900 Americans. Which is morally depraved. This is great, thank you. People say that no one on the SDMB supports a massive gun ban, but here it is. This would ban nearly every gun the police use, most .22 rimfire rifles used for training, pest control and plinking, nearly every gun used for Olympic sports, and many of the most common guns used for hunting. And there are quite a number of .22 rimfire revolvers that carry 8 or nine shots, which this silliness would also ban, not to mention most lever action guns and quite a few bolt action. And, this wouldn’t reduce crime a bit. After the semi-atos passed out of the hands of legal owners, they’d remain in the hands of criminals for many decades, slowly being replaced by revolvers. The Old West- in which there were many areas that were lawless- used nothing more than six-guns and lever action guns. So, this wouldn’t do anything to criminals. Now, I was talking about the high capacity semi-auto assault rifles, where shooting one is fun. if you are gonna ban all semi-autos, all guns with more than six shots, all detachable magazine gun, you ban many which are excellent hunting weapons, and guns made expressly for competition target shooting. Of course I own no gun like that. But there are 30 million assault rifles in America, and about 150 million of the guns you wanna ban. Obviously the huge majority of these are never used for any crime. So, no, that many gun owners are not morally depraved as their guns are not causing any risk. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2018, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-not-anti-guns-i-am-anti-bullet-holes-in-my-patients/824268/228 "2018-11-15T20:34:30Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > I’m not interested in comparing the USA to Mexico, Botswana or Haiti. If you want to take solace in the fact that our murder rate is better than Lesotho’s, by all means do so, but I won’t. I already know that there are a host of mismanaged third world violence wracked nations in existence. > Gun laws in other first world industrialized nations (there I am, cherrypicking again! :rolleyes: ) do impact gun violence in meaningful ways, because the laws impact gun ownership in meaningful ways. No, I am comparing ALL nations, no cherrypicking. No, they don’t. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2018, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-not-anti-guns-i-am-anti-bullet-holes-in-my-patients/824268/229 "2018-11-15T20:36:15Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > He said might. The 3% includes all rifles and not just Semi-Automatic. It also assumes that even if you had the law changed to ban them, that people would turn them, which is highly doubtful. It then assumes that even if we could get rid of them that people would not use other weapons. One of the largest mass shootings in the US was perpetrated by a guy with two pistols. > Given the unlikelihood of either premise the actual number of murders reduced by a ban on assault weapons is likely pretty close to zero. Puddleglum is right. What I said that AT MOST you could reduce murders by 4%. But as Puddleglum here points out the actual number would be around zero. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2018, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-not-anti-guns-i-am-anti-bullet-holes-in-my-patients/824268/230 "2018-11-15T20:38:21Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > The nice thing about tobacco is that you really only harm yourself with it. If only that was true with guns… Around 50,000 deaths of non-smokers by second hand smoke, which dwarfs the number of people murdered by guns by around five fold. ---
**Author:** ![Lamoral](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lamoral/32/16078_2.png) [@Lamoral](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamoral)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2018, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-not-anti-guns-i-am-anti-bullet-holes-in-my-patients/824268/231 "2018-11-15T20:41:25Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > This is great, thank you. People say that no one on the SDMB supports a massive gun ban, but here it is. This would ban nearly every gun the police use, most .22 rimfire rifles used for training, pest control and plinking, nearly every gun used for Olympic sports, and many of the most common guns used for hunting. And there are quite a number of .22 rimfire revolvers that carry 8 or nine shots, which this silliness would also ban, not to mention most lever action guns and quite a few bolt action. To be fair, this guy’s views are extreme. And everyone’s entitled to their own perspective. Talking about it here is one thing. But if this agenda is advanced publicly, as part of a political movement, it goes without saying that it will backfire spectacularly. That kind of rhetoric is exactly what the NRA plays off of when it talks about liberals wanting to “take away your guns.” _It has no chance of happening_ and it only makes them dig in harder. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2018, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-not-anti-guns-i-am-anti-bullet-holes-in-my-patients/824268/232 "2018-11-15T21:00:19Z")
> [@Lamoral](#): > > Are you sure that something like this could not be worked out within the limits of our existing due process? There isn’t any process currently that does this, at least not > [@](#): > > What I am not aware of it checking, is whether or not you have demonstrated psychological red flags outside of something that would be ruled on by a court or a judge. The point of the due process objection is that judges and courts are due process. You cannot, IOW, be deprived of your rights without due process of law. Owning a gun is a right. Taking away that process outside the legal system is a denial of due process. Are we going to say that people who have not been judged guilty in a court of law, or not adjudicated mentally incompetent by a judge, can be deprived of their rights because they might abuse those rights? I don’t think that is a good idea, because I think everyone should receive due process. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Omar\_Little](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omar_little/32/269_2.png) [@Omar\_Little](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar_Little)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2018, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-not-anti-guns-i-am-anti-bullet-holes-in-my-patients/824268/233 "2018-11-15T21:09:07Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Owning a gun is a right. Damn forefathers! ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2018, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-not-anti-guns-i-am-anti-bullet-holes-in-my-patients/824268/234 "2018-11-15T21:19:15Z")
> [@Lamoral](#): > > To be fair, this guy’s views are extreme. And everyone’s entitled to their own perspective. Talking about it here is one thing. But if this agenda is advanced publicly, as part of a political movement, it goes without saying that it will backfire spectacularly. That kind of rhetoric is exactly what the NRA plays off of when it talks about liberals wanting to “take away your guns.” _It has no chance of happening_ and it only makes them dig in harder. I agree. But as you can see “reasonable people” can have unreasonable opinions. That indeed is a perfect example of “gun grabber” rhetoric. Not only assault weapons\*, but hunting, police and target guns too. Pretty well a ban across the spectrum of everyday legal ordinary gun use. - and you know, honestly\*, if _they were used in a high number of crimes, and_ \*if we could come up with a solid definition, I wouldn’t lift a finger to stop them from being banned. ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2018, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-not-anti-guns-i-am-anti-bullet-holes-in-my-patients/824268/235 "2018-11-15T22:05:34Z")
> [@penultima\_thule](#): > > Most of these sound pretty inoffensive You haven’t seen Superman IV, I take it. > [@Cheesesteak](#): > > I’m not interested in comparing the USA to Mexico, Botswana or Haiti. If you want to take solace in the fact that our murder rate is better than Lesotho’s, by all means do so, but I won’t. I already know that there are a host of mismanaged third world violence wracked nations in existence. Err, Botswana is the most stable nation in Sub-Saharan Africa. They never entered a dictatorship period. A poor country by western standards, but give them some credit. You could also compare to countries with lax gun laws and low homicide rate, that are also socioeconomically comparable to the US. I don’t think that will contradict your claim so much as show zero correlation either way. > [@DrDeth](#): > > This is great, thank you. People say that no one on the SDMB supports a massive gun ban, but here it is. This would ban nearly every gun the police use, most .22 rimfire rifles used for training, pest control and plinking, nearly every gun used for Olympic sports, and many of the most common guns used for hunting. And there are quite a number of .22 rimfire revolvers that carry 8 or nine shots, which this silliness would also ban, not to mention most lever action guns and quite a few bolt action. In almost all of the bills offered, the police are given a blanket exemption from these laws. Not too long ago we were worried about an increasingly “militarized” police force, now it seems okay. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2018, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-not-anti-guns-i-am-anti-bullet-holes-in-my-patients/824268/236 "2018-11-15T22:32:24Z")
> [@thelurkinghorror](#): > > In almost all of the bills offered, the police are given a blanket exemption from these laws. Not too long ago we were worried about an increasingly “militarized” police force, now it seems okay. Sure, but if the non-police market drys up, few will bother to make guns just for police. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2018, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-not-anti-guns-i-am-anti-bullet-holes-in-my-patients/824268/237 "2018-11-15T23:12:25Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Around 50,000 deaths of non-smokers by second hand smoke, which dwarfs the number of people murdered by guns by around five fold. Why is it that you know what that number is? It’s because scientists studied it. Why is tobacco use down so much since the 50’'s and 60’s? It’s because the impact of tobacco use on health was learned, and the government took action to make sure every cigarette smoker knew how dangerous it was. Should smoking have been banned? Maybe. Do you think i’m charged up to fight against a ban on tobacco? I’m not. Hell, the FDA JUST recommended a ban on products comprising 35% of the tobacco market. Try and ban cosmetic accessories to guns and people flip out. Let’s see the response to this tobacco ban. ---
**Author:** ![Isamu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/7c8e57/32.png) [@Isamu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isamu)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2018, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-not-anti-guns-i-am-anti-bullet-holes-in-my-patients/824268/238 "2018-11-16T01:43:32Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Around 50,000 deaths of non-smokers by second hand smoke, which dwarfs the number of people murdered by guns by around five fold. This is a ‘whattabout’ argument. whattabout drugs, whattabout pools, whattabout alcohol, whattabout cars? There is minimal or acceptable risk in those other things, but gun violence has moved into the unnacceptable risk level, and that level is not a raw number it is a public intuition. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2018, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-not-anti-guns-i-am-anti-bullet-holes-in-my-patients/824268/239 "2018-11-16T01:58:24Z")
> [@Isamu](#): > > This is a ‘whattabout’ argument. whattabout drugs, whattabout pools, whattabout alcohol, whattabout cars? > > There is minimal or acceptable risk in those other things, but gun violence has moved into the unnacceptable risk level, and that level is not a raw number it is a public intuition. No it is not, since I was replying to this : **Cheesesteak** _The nice thing about tobacco is that you really only harm yourself with it. If only that was true with guns…_ Actually, murder rate has gone down. ---
**Author:** ![Isamu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/7c8e57/32.png) [@Isamu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isamu)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2018, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-not-anti-guns-i-am-anti-bullet-holes-in-my-patients/824268/240 "2018-11-16T02:08:23Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > No it is not, since I was replying to this : **Cheesesteak** > _The nice thing about tobacco is that you really only harm yourself with it. If only that was true with guns…_ > > Actually, murder rate has gone down. But shooting sprees have gone up. And that is what we are talking about in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![penultima\_thule](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/penultima_thule/32/3833_2.png) [@penultima\_thule](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/penultima_thule)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2018, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-not-anti-guns-i-am-anti-bullet-holes-in-my-patients/824268/241 "2018-11-16T02:14:52Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Sure, but if the non-police market drys up, few will bother to make guns just for police. There you go; justification for the paucity of US gun laws is to function as a market support mechanism for the gun manufacturers and NRA primary backers. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-not-anti-guns-i-am-anti-bullet-holes-in-my-patients/824268.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-not-anti-guns-i-am-anti-bullet-holes-in-my-patients/824268.md?page=13)