# "I am not anti-guns. I am anti-bullet holes in my patients." **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [November 9, 2018, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-not-anti-guns-i-am-anti-bullet-holes-in-my-patients/824268 "2018-11-09T23:42:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Isamu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/7c8e57/32.png) [@Isamu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isamu)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2018, 11:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-not-anti-guns-i-am-anti-bullet-holes-in-my-patients/824268/61 "2018-11-12T11:06:09Z")
> [@thelurkinghorror](#): > > I don’t understand your decision. All proposed laws and restrictions are literally based upon color and aesthetic standards. Do you think blackness increases lethality against civilians? I agree with you that the proposed laws are stupid if they do that. I didn’t make or support any of those propositions. ---
**Author:** ![jz78817](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jz78817/32/1028_2.png) [@jz78817](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jz78817)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2018, 12:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-not-anti-guns-i-am-anti-bullet-holes-in-my-patients/824268/62 "2018-11-12T12:38:37Z")
> [@Isamu](#): > > I agree with you that the proposed laws are stupid if they do that. I didn’t make or support any of those propositions. but you just said the “assault weapons ban” was a “step in the right direction.” ---
**Author:** ![Isamu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/7c8e57/32.png) [@Isamu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isamu)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2018, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-not-anti-guns-i-am-anti-bullet-holes-in-my-patients/824268/63 "2018-11-12T13:15:38Z")
> [@jz78817](#): > > but you just said the “assault weapons ban” was a “step in the right direction.” No, I clarified that an assault weapons ban never happened. I said that instead, the sale of some weapons became illegal for a ten year period. That ten year period was a step in the right direction from my point of view. Even if the reason for the ban on the sale of some of those guns was based on irrelevant reasons. ---
**Author:** ![Asimovian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asimovian/32/172_2.png) [@Asimovian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Asimovian)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2018, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-not-anti-guns-i-am-anti-bullet-holes-in-my-patients/824268/64 "2018-11-12T13:22:26Z")
> [@thelurkinghorror](#): > > Sorry. > > Is this a mod thing or not though? Yes. I had/have “Moderator Note” at the top of the post. The titles are sometimes not visible to me when viewing on a mobile device, but I see it on my desktop. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2018, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-not-anti-guns-i-am-anti-bullet-holes-in-my-patients/824268/65 "2018-11-12T14:04:35Z")
> [@thelurkinghorror](#): > > Exactly. We tried that, and it [did not appear to have much of an effect](https://www.politifact.com/florida/statements/2018/feb/23/ted-deutch/did-mass-shootings-increase-200-percent-assault-we/). OK, what was the effect of the _removal_ of the ban? Sure seems like we’re having a lot more assault weapons massacres since 2005 than we had during the 1994-2004 period when assault weapons sales were banned. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2018, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-not-anti-guns-i-am-anti-bullet-holes-in-my-patients/824268/66 "2018-11-12T14:16:33Z")
Missed the edit window. From **lurkinghorror** ’s cite: > [@](#): > > Louis Klarevas, who teaches at the University of Massachusetts-Boston and has also written about mass shootings, told us his research generally supports Deutch’s claim. > > Klarevas examined incidents before, during and after the assault weapons ban when six or more people were shot and killed. > > • 1984 to 1994: 19 incidents > > • 1994 to 2004 (ban is in effect): 12 incidents > > • 2004 to 2014: 34 incidents Politifact says this fails to take into account population growth, but the population didn’t grow _that_ much. It quotes experts who caution against attributing this increase entirely to the repeal of the ban, which is fine. But the fact remains that once the lid came off in 2004, the frequency and severity of mass shootings both increased substantially. Hell, just in the past couple of years, we’ve gone from “don’t publicize the name of the shooter, that’s one of the motivating factors” to there being so many of these shootings that a mass shooter is lucky to get 15 minutes of fame out of it. ---
**Author:** ![Omar\_Little](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omar_little/32/269_2.png) [@Omar\_Little](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar_Little)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2018, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-not-anti-guns-i-am-anti-bullet-holes-in-my-patients/824268/67 "2018-11-12T15:41:11Z")
> [@nearwildheaven](#): > > I still think that most doctors, police officers, EMTs, etc. are opposed to bullet holes in people, regardless of their views on gun control. I would extend that to law abiding citizens that own guns, members of the NRA, etc. as well. I don’t know a single gun owner that advocates bullet holes in people. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2018, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-not-anti-guns-i-am-anti-bullet-holes-in-my-patients/824268/68 "2018-11-12T16:22:10Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Such as? And are the gun laws enforced? > > California has strict gun laws, relative to much of the country, and this [NY Times article](https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/10/us/california-shooting-guns.html) says that our firearm death rate is half that of Florida. > . California ranks 27th in the USA in murder rate, pretty much in the middle. Florida ranks 24th, so there is no significant difference. > **[List of U.S. states and territories by intentional homicide rate](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_by_homicide_rate)** > > This is a list of U.S. states and territories by intentional homicide rate. It is typically expressed in units of deaths per 100,000 individuals per year; a homicide rate of 4 in a population of 100,000 would mean 4 murders a year, or 0.004% out of the total. The data is from the Centers for Disease Control (CDC), and the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI). The reasons for the different results can be confusing. From the Reason Foundation: "While the FBI data relies on reports by law enf FBI... If you count only “gun murders” CA ranks the 19th worst. > **[Gun death and violence in the United States by state](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_violence_in_the_United_States_by_state)** > > This is a list of US states by gun deaths and rates of violence. In 2021, there were 26,000 gun suicides and 21,000 gun homicides, together making up a sixth of deaths from external causes. Gun deaths make up about half of all suicides, but over 80% of homicides. > Gun deaths in 2021 rose to levels not seen since the 1990s, but remained below rates of the 1970s. > A 2022 study found that guns were the cause of more years lost than any other source of traumatic injury, including motor vehicles. Ca does have the strictest gun laws in the nation. Florida is about average. New Hampshire has the very lowest murder rate in the nation, but is ranked 31st in gun laws (with CA being #1) . So, this post has a pretty spurious comparison. Whatever is driving homicide rates, gun laws in the USA do not seem to be having any effect at all. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2018, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-not-anti-guns-i-am-anti-bullet-holes-in-my-patients/824268/69 "2018-11-12T16:25:51Z")
> [@Isamu](#): > > You responded to a poster talking about “weapon bans”, and you replied saying the above. > > The truth is the US has never had an assault weapon ban. They were never illegal. The actual truth is there was a 10 year ban from 1994-2004 on SALES. But the ones that were already out there in people’s hands were too numerous to count and were completely unnafected by the ban on sales. The ban on sales only counted for under6% of firearm sales anyway! > > While it was a step in the right direction and may have saved lives (there is literally no way to know) if could never have been effective on a large scale against gun deaths. Everyone with common sense knows how disingenuous it is to say “we tried it and it didn’t work”. Assault Weapons- however you define them- have a extremely small rate of being used in violent crimes. All rifles added together only account for around 4% of murders. Even if you waved a magic wand and removed every single assault weapon in the USA, there would be no significant downtick in homicide rates. ---
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2018, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-not-anti-guns-i-am-anti-bullet-holes-in-my-patients/824268/70 "2018-11-12T16:27:43Z")
> [@ExTank](#): > > You’re in the same position as a tow-truck driver or auto mechanic: all they see are broken down cars, so they assume that the world is full of nothing but broken down cars. Not to negate your “10 to 1” ratio; it is, after all, _your experience._ > > But considering your place of work, it is not necessarily reflective of reality. So, if it’s sample bias, where do all the _good_ gunshot victims wind up? Yeah, tow see a lot of broke-down autos, but there’s a lot of perfectly fine ones whizzing by while they load up the cripple. I’d say more help for the crazy would help, but conservatives are are dead set against that as well. I’m not enthusiastic about gun control but the wingnuts are backing themselves into a corner. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2018, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-not-anti-guns-i-am-anti-bullet-holes-in-my-patients/824268/71 "2018-11-12T16:28:41Z")
> [@Isamu](#): > > It is a term that exists so it is a real thing. The U.S. Army defines assault rifles as “short, compact, selective-fire weapons that fire a cartridge intermediate in power between submachine gun and rifle cartridges.” … Great, so those have been effectively banned in the USA since 1934. Problem solved! No more gun deaths… oh, err, oops. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2018, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-not-anti-guns-i-am-anti-bullet-holes-in-my-patients/824268/72 "2018-11-12T16:30:52Z")
> [@steatopygia](#): > > The ratio of “good gun use” to bad gun use is like 10 to 1 in my experience. I would like the NRA to come into my ER after a cop has been shot in the face or a child has shot their sibling. The NRA used to be about hunting, not so much anymore. Interesting you mentioned hunting, because if you include hunting as a “good gun use,” then the ratio would be more like 100:1 in favor of good use. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2018, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-not-anti-guns-i-am-anti-bullet-holes-in-my-patients/824268/73 "2018-11-12T16:31:49Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Because they control ammunition rather than the gun. With no ammo it’s just a badly designed club. Actually they don’t. > **[Firearms regulation in Switzerland](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_laws_in_Switzerland)** > > Firearms regulation in Switzerland allows the acquisition of semi-automatic, and – with a may-issue permit – fully automatic firearms, by Swiss citizens and foreigners with or without permanent residence.\[note 1\] The laws pertaining to the acquisition of firearms in Switzerland are amongst the most liberal in the world. Swiss gun laws are primarily about the acquisition of arms, and not ownership. As such a license is not required to own a gun by itself, but a shall-issue permit is required T... ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2018, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-not-anti-guns-i-am-anti-bullet-holes-in-my-patients/824268/74 "2018-11-12T17:19:47Z")
…and as predicted it devolves into a battle over exact terminology and knowing every last legal or regulatory provision… ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2018, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-not-anti-guns-i-am-anti-bullet-holes-in-my-patients/824268/75 "2018-11-12T17:46:38Z")
> [@jasg](#): > > Twitter is blowing up over the tone deaf NRA with the hashtag #stayinmylane > > This one jumps out Well, she works in San Francisco , which had 57 murders last year. In 2018 they had about 20 shooting murders. There are five ERs in SF. 4 per ER. Assuming she worked 50% of the time in one, then the answer is two per year. Now here she claims to do “Melinek said she conducts, on average, one autopsy a week involving a gunshot wound victim”. > **['Do you know how many bullets I pull out of corpses weekly?' – doctors to NRA](https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/nov/09/nra-doctors-tweet-gun-control-deaths)** > > Physician slams organization after it criticized those who want to reduce gun deaths by tweeting ‘stay in your lane’ However, like I showed, there were only 20 gun murders, and she is not the County’s Chief Medical examiner. So, I have no idea how is is doing 50 autopsy a year on gun murders when there were only 20 such and she certainly isnt the only Doctor doing such. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2018, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-not-anti-guns-i-am-anti-bullet-holes-in-my-patients/824268/76 "2018-11-12T18:13:42Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > Y’know, we’re actually _doing_ things about that. We recognize these as clear and present public health threats. As a result, we have laws about driving or using machinery while drunk. We have regulations that demand big fat warning labels on cigarettes, and we run public service announcements and anti-smoking campaigns to warn of the dangers. > > We’re not doing anything like this for guns. We can’t even be bothered to do something simple like ban bump stocks. I have yet to see a single PSA pointing out the gun-suicide risk connection; it’s certainly not seen as a major concern the government should worry about. We can’t even pass laws that prevent people with serious mental disorders or a history of violent behavior from owning guns! > > Meanwhile, the myth of a “good guy with a gun” probably won’t die until someone shoots up the NRA’s headquarters. The problem of gun violence is improving rapidly, murders are down 50% from there high, shootings are down, even suicides are down from there high of 25 years ago. If someone did try to shoot up the NRA’s headquarters I imagine they would die a lot quicker than any myth. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2018, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-not-anti-guns-i-am-anti-bullet-holes-in-my-patients/824268/77 "2018-11-12T18:20:56Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > …and as predicted it devolves into a battle over exact terminology and knowing every last legal or regulatory provision… It’s weird how we let the gun fetishists control the debate on guns. I do take comfort in the fact that their grip is loosening though. To be honest it’s going to take angry old white guys dying off. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2018, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-not-anti-guns-i-am-anti-bullet-holes-in-my-patients/824268/78 "2018-11-12T18:34:58Z")
> [@madmonk28](#): > > It’s weird how we let the gun fetishists control the debate on guns. I do take comfort in the fact that their grip is loosening though. To be honest it’s going to take angry old white guys dying off. See, I am not a member of the NRA. I only own a .22 rimfire rifle, given to me by my Dad on Christmas when I was a kid, and my service revolver, from when I was a State security guard during college. I haven’t fired either in decades. I did work at a sporting goods store for a while, they sold guns, but I mostly did fishing tackle. But I am a small L libertarian, and I dont like laws that do nothing. Gun laws in the USA have never had a significant effect on violent crime. And then, when a “gun grabber” talks about banning “assault weapons”, I do expect them to know a reasonable amount about what they want to ban, and why. Here on this board I have read that assault weapons are large caliber (not true, in fact the AR15 is only .22 caliber), very powerful (again, not true) , that all semi-auto weapons are 'assault weapons " (not under any legal definition) and that banning assault weapons would cause a large decrease in “gun deaths” which is simply false (few people would consider less than 4%= “large”). So yeah, I would like you to know a few facts before recommending to imprison perhaps some 30 Million US citizens. Don’t worry, yes I know there are a few "gun fetishists " around, altho I prefer “gun nuts”. I haven’t seen many on the SDMB, however. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2018, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-not-anti-guns-i-am-anti-bullet-holes-in-my-patients/824268/79 "2018-11-12T18:37:53Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Well, she works in San Francisco , which had 57 murders last year. In 2018 they had about 20 shooting murders. > > There are five ERs in SF. 4 per ER. > > Assuming she worked 50% of the time in one, then the answer is two per year. > > Now here she claims to do “Melinek said she conducts, on average, one autopsy a week involving a gunshot wound victim”. > ['Do you know how many bullets I pull out of corpses weekly?' – doctors to NRA | NRA | The Guardian](https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/nov/09/nra-doctors-tweet-gun-control-deaths) > However, like I showed, there were only 20 gun murders, and she is not the County’s Chief Medical examiner. > > So, I have no idea how is is doing 50 autopsy a year on gun murders when there were only 20 such and she certainly isnt the only Doctor doing such. You’re leaving out suicides and accidental deaths from guns. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2018, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-not-anti-guns-i-am-anti-bullet-holes-in-my-patients/824268/80 "2018-11-12T18:40:14Z")
> [@madmonk28](#): > > You’re leaving out suicides and accidental deaths from guns. No stats for those. But even if that doubles the number, her figures are impossible. Even triple, that makes her doing six such examinations a year. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-not-anti-guns-i-am-anti-bullet-holes-in-my-patients/824268.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-not-anti-guns-i-am-anti-bullet-holes-in-my-patients/824268.md?page=5)