# "I am not anti-guns. I am anti-bullet holes in my patients." **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [November 9, 2018, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-not-anti-guns-i-am-anti-bullet-holes-in-my-patients/824268 "2018-11-09T23:42:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![raventhief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/raventhief/32/4_2.png) [@raventhief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raventhief)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2018, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-not-anti-guns-i-am-anti-bullet-holes-in-my-patients/824268/81 "2018-11-12T18:43:25Z")
Why does the number of ERs affect how many autopsies a forensic pathologist does on gunshot victims? Did she say that she had one GSV corpse a week in her ER? ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2018, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-not-anti-guns-i-am-anti-bullet-holes-in-my-patients/824268/82 "2018-11-12T19:31:29Z")
She is also an expert witness in forensic pathology for trials. In that capacity, she likely sees gunshot deaths from lots of jurisdictions, not just SF. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2018, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-not-anti-guns-i-am-anti-bullet-holes-in-my-patients/824268/83 "2018-11-12T19:36:29Z")
> [@madmonk28](#): > > She is also an expert witness in forensic pathology for trials. In that capacity, she likely sees gunshot deaths from lots of jurisdictions, not just SF. Judy Melinek M.D. _“Do you have any idea how many bullets I pull out of corpses weekly? This isn’t just my lane. It’s my fucking highway.”_ She is not pulling bullets out of bodies that Medical examiners or ER doctors have already finished with. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2018, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-not-anti-guns-i-am-anti-bullet-holes-in-my-patients/824268/84 "2018-11-12T19:44:30Z")
She alleged > [@](#): > > Melinek said she conducts, on average, one autopsy a week involving a gunshot wound victim… That’s 52. All the murders in SF would have to be from guns (they aren’t) and she would have had to do nearly all the autopsies at all the morgues in SF (which she didn’t). So I suspect she is exaggerating just a wee bit. I couldn’t find any data on how many gun suicides happened in SF - jumping off the Golden Gate Bridge seems to be a lot of what they worry about. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2018, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-not-anti-guns-i-am-anti-bullet-holes-in-my-patients/824268/85 "2018-11-12T19:47:21Z")
You are awful sure about what she does and doesn’t do in her work. I’m going to need a cite for what jurisdictions she works in and what her duties are in those jurisdictions that back up your claims. Not a half assed back if the envelope guess, but an actual cite about what Dr. Melinek does in the course of her work. ---
**Author:** ![raventhief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/raventhief/32/4_2.png) [@raventhief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raventhief)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2018, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-not-anti-guns-i-am-anti-bullet-holes-in-my-patients/824268/86 "2018-11-12T19:50:58Z")
Huh, her book is subtitled “the making of a medical examiner.” I don’t think she is only doing a couple of autopsies a year at an ER. > **[Dr. Judy Melinek Forensic Pathology Expert Consulting | Pathology Expert](https://www.pathologyexpert.com/drjudymelinek/)** > > Dr. Judy Melinek Forensic Pathology Expert Consulting. FORENSIC PATHOLOGY EXPERT WITNESS ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2018, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-not-anti-guns-i-am-anti-bullet-holes-in-my-patients/824268/87 "2018-11-12T19:58:38Z")
> [@DavidwithanR](#): > > There is a place for guns. It is: inserted into the mouths of the fucking NRA. Every single one of them. (Though blowing NRA “brains” out is not a particularly dramatic act - all you get is a big puff of hot air that stinks of festering ego.) We’re gonna stamp out hate, poke it with a pick! Tear up all its insides out and see what makes it tick. We’re gonna stamp out hate, let it know who’s boss, Take it up a lonely hill and nail it to a cross! We’re gonna stamp…out…hate! ---
**Author:** ![raventhief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/raventhief/32/4_2.png) [@raventhief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raventhief)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2018, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-not-anti-guns-i-am-anti-bullet-holes-in-my-patients/824268/88 "2018-11-12T20:00:18Z")
> [@raventhief](#): > > Huh, her book is subtitled “the making of a medical examiner.” I don’t think she is only doing a couple of autopsies a year at an ER. > > [Dr. Judy Melinek Forensic Pathology Expert Consulting | Pathology Expert](http://www.pathologyexpert.com/drjudymelinek) Btw, her CV is at that link as well. ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2018, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-not-anti-guns-i-am-anti-bullet-holes-in-my-patients/824268/89 "2018-11-12T20:53:08Z")
> [@Asimovian](#): > > Yes. I had/have “Moderator Note” at the top of the post. > > The titles are sometimes not visible to me when viewing on a mobile device, but I see it on my desktop. FYI it doesn’t show up on Tapatalk (on Android at least). I don’t know if that’s a new thing or not, but I haven’t noticed it conspicuously missing in the past. > [@RTFirefly](#): > > OK, what was the effect of the _removal_ of the ban? Sure seems like we’re having a lot more assault weapons massacres since 2005 than we had during the 1994-2004 period when assault weapons sales were banned. The link actually addresses the effect of the removal more than what happened during. But I don’t think deaths by “assault weapons” should be a good metric anyway. Does it increase deaths by any gun, or death rate in general? If not, were people just switching to a new trend? In other words, the DUI rate by Toyota Corollas goes up every year, yet in 1965 it was zero. The introduction of a particular model is related to it’s misuse, but unless it can be shown to have a causal relationship it’s “interesting, but meaningless.” > [@madmonk28](#): > > It’s weird how we let the gun fetishists control the debate on guns. I do take comfort in the fact that their grip is loosening though. To be honest it’s going to take angry old white guys dying off. It’s weird how we let the climate scientists control the climate change debate. It’s weird how we let homosexuals control the SSM debate. One side is ill-informed, but has strong feeling about something. It’s also weird how “angry old white guys” is the go-to. It’s also angry young white guys! But seriously, gun ownership leans white and male, but I don’t think we should marginalize minority gun owners. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2018, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-not-anti-guns-i-am-anti-bullet-holes-in-my-patients/824268/90 "2018-11-12T21:07:12Z")
> [@thelurkinghorror](#): > > FYI it doesn’t show up on Tapatalk (on Android at least). I don’t know if that’s a new thing or not, but I haven’t noticed it conspicuously missing in the past. > > The link actually addresses the effect of the removal more than what happened during. But I don’t think deaths by “assault weapons” should be a good metric anyway. Does it increase deaths by any gun, or death rate in general? If not, were people just switching to a new trend? In other words, the DUI rate by Toyota Corollas goes up every year, yet in 1965 it was zero. The introduction of a particular model is related to it’s misuse, but unless it can be shown to have a causal relationship it’s “interesting, but meaningless.” > > It’s weird how we let the climate scientists control the climate change debate. > > It’s weird how we let homosexuals control the SSM debate. > > One side is ill-informed, but has strong feeling about something. > > It’s also weird how “angry old white guys” is the go-to. It’s also angry young white guys! But seriously, gun ownership leans white and male, but I don’t think we should marginalize minority gun owners. This actually puts it in perspective, we don’t let the scientist control the climate discussions and for the longest time we didn’t let gays control the SSM debate. Just like with guns, we let the angry old men control those debates. Our policies are too often driven by bigots reacting to their irrational fears. Thank you for helping me understand. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2018, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-not-anti-guns-i-am-anti-bullet-holes-in-my-patients/824268/91 "2018-11-12T21:33:56Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > California ranks 27th in the USA in murder rate, pretty much in the middle. Florida ranks 24th, so there is no significant difference. > [List of U.S. states and territories by intentional homicide rate - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_by_homicide_rate) > > If you count only “gun murders” CA ranks the 19th worst. > [Gun death and violence in the United States by state - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_violence_in_the_United_States_by_state) > > Ca does have the strictest gun laws in the nation. Florida is about average. > > New Hampshire has the very lowest murder rate in the nation, but is ranked 31st in gun laws (with CA being #1) . > > So, this post has a pretty spurious comparison. Whatever is driving homicide rates, gun laws in the USA do not seem to be having any effect at all. How nice of you to decide that suicides and accidental deaths don’t count. I care about anyone who dies in a firearm related incident, which is why I quoted that number. You people talk about how we can’t compare death rates with Europe because of different cultures - yet here you are comparing rates with New Hampshire, which does not have a big gang problem. The California homicide rate would go way down if we could keep guns out of the hands of gang members (Florida too, no doubt) But that ain’t going to happen, is it? ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2018, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-not-anti-guns-i-am-anti-bullet-holes-in-my-patients/824268/92 "2018-11-12T21:39:16Z")
> [@thelurkinghorror](#): > > The link actually addresses the effect of the removal more than what happened during. But I don’t think deaths by “assault weapons” should be a good metric anyway. Does it increase deaths by any gun, or death rate in general? If not, were people just switching to a new trend? In other words, the DUI rate by Toyota Corollas goes up every year, yet in 1965 it was zero. The introduction of a particular model is related to it’s misuse, but unless it can be shown to have a causal relationship it’s “interesting, but meaningless.” The Thousand Oaks shooter didn’t use an assault weapon, though he surely knew how. Did the ban in California save lives or not? No way to tell for sure. ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2018, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-not-anti-guns-i-am-anti-bullet-holes-in-my-patients/824268/93 "2018-11-12T22:32:52Z")
> [@steatopygia](#): > > The ratio of “good gun use” to bad gun use is like 10 to 1 in my experience. I would like the NRA to come into my ER after a cop has been shot in the face or a child has shot their sibling. The NRA used to be about hunting, not so much anymore. How can you honestly hazard a guess at a ratio between good and bad, when you only see the bad? You agree that any time someone end up in the ER, that falls into the “bad” category, right? ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2018, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-not-anti-guns-i-am-anti-bullet-holes-in-my-patients/824268/94 "2018-11-12T23:01:49Z")
> [@thelurkinghorror](#): > > It’s weird how we let the climate scientists control the climate change debate. Yeah! You know, because climate scientists: A) Totally control how we talk about climate, particularly in the halls of power and B) Are _in any way analogous to the NRA_ (/Sarcasm, in case it wasn’t totally obvious.) > [@](#): > > It’s weird how we let homosexuals control the SSM debate. You have some truly _bizarre_ analogies, man. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2018, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-not-anti-guns-i-am-anti-bullet-holes-in-my-patients/824268/95 "2018-11-12T23:15:57Z")
> [@ExTank](#): > > Cu the shit; you know exactly what I was trying to relay in the analogy. Not unless what you were trying to say was something ridiculous. Your analogy was pretty meaningless otherwise. [QUOTE=ExTank] I was nice and allowed, by analogy, that they might be engaging in confirmation bias. Even the worst neighborhoods in Chicago they don’t have a 10:1 gunshot victims vs. ordinary patients ratio. [/QUOTE] Ah, I think I may have spotted the problem: you appear to have inverted **steatopygia** ’s ratio, besides misidentifying one of the objects of comparison. > [@steatopygia](#): > > The ratio of “good gun use” to bad gun use is like 10 to 1 in my experience. ---
**Author:** ![steatopygia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steatopygia/32/3132_2.png) [@steatopygia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steatopygia)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2018, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-not-anti-guns-i-am-anti-bullet-holes-in-my-patients/824268/96 "2018-11-12T23:30:03Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Judy Melinek M.D. > > _“Do you have any idea how many bullets I pull out of corpses weekly? This isn’t just my lane. It’s my fucking highway.”_ > > She is not pulling bullets out of bodies that Medical examiners or ER doctors have already finished with. ER doctors are NOT pulling bullets out of bodies, that would happen in surgery, if the patient makes it that far. And once again, ERs are only seeing the ones who aren’t “DRT” Dead Right There. The pathologist sees everyone that dies violently, whether they make it to the ER or not. ---
**Author:** ![steatopygia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steatopygia/32/3132_2.png) [@steatopygia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steatopygia)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2018, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-not-anti-guns-i-am-anti-bullet-holes-in-my-patients/824268/97 "2018-11-12T23:32:01Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > How can you honestly hazard a guess at a ratio between good and bad, when you only see the bad? You agree that any time someone end up in the ER, that falls into the “bad” category, right? No, see post #17. I defined two rather broad categories as “good”. ---
**Author:** ![steatopygia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steatopygia/32/3132_2.png) [@steatopygia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steatopygia)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2018, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-not-anti-guns-i-am-anti-bullet-holes-in-my-patients/824268/98 "2018-11-12T23:45:27Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Guns are very safe. > You dont think a unarmed person can kill or hurt or rape someone? > > And, you’d fine someone who shot a armed assailant? Even cops? That is patently ridiculous. Guns are designed to kill. The only time they are safe is when nobody is touching them. How easy is it for a 2 year old to kill an adult? I’d say almost impossible. I’d be wrong. T[his happened near me](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2014/12/31/the-inside-story-of-how-an-idaho-toddler-shot-his-mom-at-wal-mart/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.f108840461a4). Read the story, this was a very responsible gun owner. Guns are safe, give me a break. Yeah, _I don’t_ think an unarmed person can kill or hurt from dozens of feet away. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Librarian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_librarian/32/402_2.png) [@The\_Librarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Librarian)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2018, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-not-anti-guns-i-am-anti-bullet-holes-in-my-patients/824268/99 "2018-11-12T23:49:33Z")
> [@thelurkinghorror](#): > > One side is ill-informed, but has strong feeling about something. LOL ---
**Author:** ![steatopygia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steatopygia/32/3132_2.png) [@steatopygia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steatopygia)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2018, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-not-anti-guns-i-am-anti-bullet-holes-in-my-patients/824268/100 "2018-11-12T23:54:49Z")
So far I have seen one valid argument that disputes my take on guns. That is that I don’t see examples of gun use that don’t result in a shooting. Fair enough, I don’t see defensive gun use that ends peaceably, that definitely happens. I would counter that I also don’t see the results of armed robberies that don’t end in shooting. I am pro hunting, I am completely anti-NRA. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-not-anti-guns-i-am-anti-bullet-holes-in-my-patients/824268.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-not-anti-guns-i-am-anti-bullet-holes-in-my-patients/824268.md?page=6)