# "I am not anti-guns. I am anti-bullet holes in my patients." **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [November 9, 2018, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-not-anti-guns-i-am-anti-bullet-holes-in-my-patients/824268 "2018-11-09T23:42:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![galen\_ubal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/galen_ubal/32/4440_2.png) [@galen\_ubal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/galen_ubal)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2018, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-not-anti-guns-i-am-anti-bullet-holes-in-my-patients/824268/101 "2018-11-13T00:25:24Z")
[The Gun Violence Archive](https://www.gunviolencearchive.org/) provides stats on gun incidents in the US, culled from numerous sources. ---
**Author:** ![steatopygia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steatopygia/32/3132_2.png) [@steatopygia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steatopygia)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2018, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-not-anti-guns-i-am-anti-bullet-holes-in-my-patients/824268/102 "2018-11-13T00:36:47Z")
> [@galen\_ubal](#): > > [The Gun Violence Archive]([https://www.gunviolencearchad](https://www.gunviolencearchad) not [hive.org/](http://hive.org/)) provides stats on gun incidents in the US, culled from numerous sources. Nice resource. I had not come across that page before. ---
**Author:** ![nearwildheaven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/90db22/32.png) [@nearwildheaven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nearwildheaven)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2018, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-not-anti-guns-i-am-anti-bullet-holes-in-my-patients/824268/103 "2018-11-13T01:45:53Z")
Here’s a story that appeared in my local paper today about the Thousand Oaks shooter (I refuse to use his name), where his HS track coaches - both female - said he was a sexual harasser and they knew even then that he was a ticking time bomb. One of them even said that he told her that he wanted to go into the Marines so he could kill people! How did this guy get past the recruiter, let alone deployed?!?!? > **[High school coach says California gunman was a 'ticking time bomb'](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/high-school-coach-says-california-gunman-ian-long-was-ticking-n935061)** > > The coach, Evie Cluke, said she witnessed Long pretending to shoot another coach and called him "sadistic." ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2018, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-not-anti-guns-i-am-anti-bullet-holes-in-my-patients/824268/104 "2018-11-13T03:04:16Z")
> [@nearwildheaven](#): > > Here’s a story that appeared in my local paper today about the Thousand Oaks shooter (I refuse to use his name), where his HS track coaches - both female - said he was a sexual harasser and they knew even then that he was a ticking time bomb. One of them even said that he told her that he wanted to go into the Marines so he could kill people! How did this guy get past the recruiter, let alone deployed?!?!? > > [High school coach says California gunman Ian Long was a 'ticking time bomb'](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/high-school-coach-says-california-gunman-ian-long-was-ticking-n935061) I take it he did not go to in and say _“Sarge… I wanna kill. I mean, kill, KILL…”_ etc. They can only reject you for things they know or that are on the record. I don’t think they do full psych work on you for mere recruitment. If you just creep people out, but can hold it together when watched like a good psychopath, that doesn’t show up on any chart or rap sheet. ---
**Author:** ![nearwildheaven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/90db22/32.png) [@nearwildheaven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nearwildheaven)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2018, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-not-anti-guns-i-am-anti-bullet-holes-in-my-patients/824268/105 "2018-11-13T04:42:24Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > I take it he did not go to in and say _“Sarge… I wanna kill. I mean, kill, KILL…”_ etc. > > They can only reject you for things they know or that are on the record. I don’t think they do full psych work on you for mere recruitment. If you just creep people out, but can hold it together when watched like a good psychopath, that doesn’t show up on any chart or rap sheet. That’s true, and don’t forget that for a while, the military was pretty much taking anyone who could fog up a mirror. ---
**Author:** ![Isamu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/7c8e57/32.png) [@Isamu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isamu)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2018, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-not-anti-guns-i-am-anti-bullet-holes-in-my-patients/824268/106 "2018-11-13T13:15:15Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Assault Weapons- however you define them- have a extremely small rate of being used in violent crimes. All rifles added together only account for around 4% of murders. Even if you waved a magic wand and removed every single assault weapon in the USA, there would be no significant downtick in homicide rates. I agree with you. Well, I agree with everything you said except the “however you define them” part, because if I wanted to define “Assault Weapons” as any semi automatic gun, then I think you would be wrong and there would be a significant downtick in homicide rates immediately after the magic wand. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2018, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-not-anti-guns-i-am-anti-bullet-holes-in-my-patients/824268/107 "2018-11-13T13:18:21Z")
> [@steatopygia](#): > > So far I have seen one valid argument that disputes my take on guns. > > That is that I don’t see examples of gun use that don’t result in a shooting. Fair enough, I don’t see defensive gun use that ends peaceably, that definitely happens. I would counter that I also don’t see the results of armed robberies that don’t end in shooting. In 2017 there were 118,745 armed robberies in the US using guns. ([Cite](https://www.statista.com/statistics/251914/number-of-robberies-in-the-us-by-weapon/)). Number of defensive gun uses in the US are somewhere between [500,000 and 3 million](https://www.forbes.com/sites/paulhsieh/2018/04/30/that-time-the-cdc-asked-about-defensive-gun-uses/). There are about [38,000 gun deaths in the US per year](http://time.com/5011599/gun-deaths-rate-america-cdc-data/), of which about two thirds are suicides. So no matter how you slice it, there are going to be at least four times more DGUs not resulting in a shooting than armed robberies not resulting in a shooting. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![EarlGrayHot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e480ec/32.png) [@EarlGrayHot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EarlGrayHot)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2018, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-not-anti-guns-i-am-anti-bullet-holes-in-my-patients/824268/108 "2018-11-13T15:15:19Z")
This is about people who such narcissists that they think they should shoot random people to get even. Even if they have been bullied, that is no excuse to shoot someone. What we need are commonsense laws making it a felony to sell guns or ammo to someone if they have been judged to have a violent mental health issue. And this is where doctors, friends, and relatives have to keep their eyes open for indications there is a problem with an individual. I think most shootings were committed by people whose problems were known and Doctors and even emergency personnel should be willing to step us and have someone committed temporarily to evaluate him or her. In this most recent case, while people were first saying, “Oh, there was no indication…” there was. His mother was afraid of him and I guess people just didn’t want to be responsible for reporting him. That has to STOP. Perhaps we should add a requirement that someone has to come along and vouch for your sound mind if you want to get a gun. And yes, the NRA has become an extremist organization. Remember the elder Bush withdrew his membership because he saw what they had become. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2018, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-not-anti-guns-i-am-anti-bullet-holes-in-my-patients/824268/109 "2018-11-13T15:57:05Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > In 2017 there were 118,745 armed robberies in the US using guns. ([Cite](https://www.statista.com/statistics/251914/number-of-robberies-in-the-us-by-weapon/)). Number of defensive gun uses in the US are somewhere between [500,000 and 3 million](https://www.forbes.com/sites/paulhsieh/2018/04/30/that-time-the-cdc-asked-about-defensive-gun-uses/). There are about [38,000 gun deaths in the US per year](http://time.com/5011599/gun-deaths-rate-america-cdc-data/), of which about two thirds are suicides. So no matter how you slice it, there are going to be at least four times more DGUs not resulting in a shooting than armed robberies not resulting in a shooting. This doesn’t even make sense.[In 2016, 278,600 break-ins occurred at night with 486,006 happening during the day with $2,361 stolen on average.](https://www.forbes.com/sites/niallmccarthy/2018/02/16/the-u-s-states-with-the-highest-rates-of-burglary-infographic/#7a83ca642d45) So altogether, we’ve got ~883K armed robberies and unarmed burglaries per year. And then we’ve supposedly got somewhere between 500K and 3000K DGUs. Presumably just about all of these represent the resident of a home defending his home against a home invasion of some sort - burglary or armed robbery. Let’s try the 500K number. That gives us 883K + 500K = 1383K home invasion attempts per year, of which 500K/1383K = 36% represent successful DGUs. The thing is, [that’s roughly the percentage of households in America that have guns.](https://www.cnn.com/2018/02/15/politics/guns-dont-know-how-many-america/index.html) If households with guns and households without guns have an equal likelihood of having someone attempt a burglary or an armed robbery, that means that households with guns have roughly a 100% success rate at repelling burglars and armed robbers. Which for one thing, means that burglary/armed robbery attempts always occur when the gun owner is home, and that the burglars never get in and out without being discovered. That seems rather improbable. And the higher extreme, the 3M DGUs, seem to require **six times as many** attempted burglaries/armed robberies at homes with guns present than at homes without. Nah, not happening. ---
**Author:** ![sps49sd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@sps49sd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sps49sd)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2018, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-not-anti-guns-i-am-anti-bullet-holes-in-my-patients/824268/110 "2018-11-13T17:35:18Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > But making guns safe might cause them to take one second longer when they play John Wayne and shoot the bad guy, so it is totally unacceptable. > > Unfortunately, it is their guns, our problem, since the rest of us are the ones getting shot. Perhaps we can have a rule that _any gun possessor shooting an unarmed person in any way gets an immediate death penalty_, while shooting an armed person goes through normal procedures with some jail time in the worst cases but otherwise a fine. > Maybe that would help. Seriously? Use in self defense, like my then- 45 year old mother versus her younger, larger, male assailant, will get her the death penalty? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2018, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-not-anti-guns-i-am-anti-bullet-holes-in-my-patients/824268/111 "2018-11-13T18:02:55Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > This doesn’t even make sense.[In 2016, 278,600 break-ins occurred at night with 486,006 happening during the day with $2,361 stolen on average.](https://www.forbes.com/sites/niallmccarthy/2018/02/16/the-u-s-states-with-the-highest-rates-of-burglary-infographic/#7a83ca642d45) So altogether, we’ve got ~883K armed robberies and unarmed burglaries per year. > > And then we’ve supposedly got somewhere between 500K and 3000K DGUs. Presumably just about all of these represent the resident of a home defending his home against a home invasion of some sort - burglary or armed robbery. > > Let’s try the 500K number. That gives us 883K + 500K = 1383K home invasion attempts per year, of which 500K/1383K = 36% represent successful DGUs. > > The thing is, > [that’s roughly the percentage of households in America that have guns.](https://www.cnn.com/2018/02/15/politics/guns-dont-know-how-many-america/index.html) If households with guns and households without guns have an equal likelihood of having someone attempt a burglary or an armed robbery, that means that households with guns have roughly a 100% success rate at repelling burglars and armed robbers. > > Which for one thing, means that burglary/armed robbery attempts always occur when the gun owner is home, and that the burglars never get in and out without being discovered. That seems rather improbable. > > And the higher extreme, the 3M DGUs, seem to require **six times as many** attempted burglaries/armed robberies at homes with guns present than at homes without. > > Nah, not happening. I don’t know what you are talking about, but it’s nothing that **steatopygia** or I were talking about. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![sps49sd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@sps49sd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sps49sd)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2018, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-not-anti-guns-i-am-anti-bullet-holes-in-my-patients/824268/112 "2018-11-13T18:03:46Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > …and as predicted it devolves into a battle over exact terminology and knowing every last legal or regulatory provision… A completely incorrect assertion was shown to be incorrect. The alternative to fact based discussions is, what, arguments based on emotion? ---
**Author:** ![Lamoral](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lamoral/32/16078_2.png) [@Lamoral](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamoral)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2018, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-not-anti-guns-i-am-anti-bullet-holes-in-my-patients/824268/113 "2018-11-13T19:11:40Z")
It appears to me that the political capital for enacting stricter gun control measures just isn’t there right now. With a Republican pro-gun president who is an NRA supporter, and who I will believe will serve two terms (though that’s another discussion entirely), a Supreme Court that he’s stacking in his favor and may yet continue to do so; and with gun control being politically very difficult to achieve, it’s so unlikely that we’re actually going to see any restrictions passed, that calling for more gun control at this point is almost becoming as much an exercise in futility as the “thoughts and prayers” which are so widely mocked. If the death toll of these shootings is to be reduced _in the here and now_, it seems to me that the best strategy is doubling down on addressing the root causes of the violence. That includes mental health support, and making it harder for people known to be dangerous to slip through the cracks, as happened with the Parkland shooter over and over again. Also some kind of concerted effort to reach out to troubled kids in high school and pre-emptively deal with the anger and hatred that motivates them to lash out violently. There need to be more qualified counselors to help these guys (and they’re almost always guys) work through there issues and get them to channel their energy and frustration into doing something productive. If these guys were screaming their heads off in punk rock bands instead of blowing peoples’ heads off with guns, we’d all be better off. I’m not saying that stricter gun control _wouldn’t_ reduce these shootings, but since that’s such an uphill battle, the will to address these shootings - which _is_ collectively there - should be directed where it’s most likely to actually make an impact rather than just make a point. ---
**Author:** ![control-z](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/eada6e/32.png) [@control-z](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/control-z)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2018, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-not-anti-guns-i-am-anti-bullet-holes-in-my-patients/824268/114 "2018-11-13T19:37:06Z")
I’m opposed to gun violence, I’m opposed to knife violence, I’m opposed to car accidents, I’m opposed to hospital errors, and I’m opposed to swimming pool drownings. I’m not opposed to guns, knives, cars, hospitals, or swimming pools. ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2018, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-not-anti-guns-i-am-anti-bullet-holes-in-my-patients/824268/115 "2018-11-13T19:38:52Z")
> [@thelurkinghorror](#): > > It’s weird how we let the climate scientists control the climate change debate. > > It’s weird how we let homosexuals control the SSM debate. > > One side is ill-informed, but has strong feeling about something. I agree, and in fact was about to post the same analogy. Lets look at the actual [NRA tweet](https://twitter.com/NRA/status/1060256567914909702?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1060256567914909702&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.cbsnews.com%2Fnews%2Fstay-in-your-lane-doctors-fire-back-at-the-nra-guns%2F) that set this whole thing off. > [@NRA](#): > > Someone should tell self-important anti-gun doctors to stay in their lane. Half of the articles in Annals of Internal Medicine are pushing for gun control. Most upsetting, however, the medical community seems to have consulted NO ONE but themselves. The science supports gun regulation, but the NRA arguing against arguing against looking at the issue in an objective scientific manner because they answer. the equivalent is coal power plant owners and Truck drivers saying that climate scientists should stay in their lane and shut up about the effects of burning carbon and leave it to the people who do the burning. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2018, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-not-anti-guns-i-am-anti-bullet-holes-in-my-patients/824268/116 "2018-11-13T20:10:26Z")
> [@Isamu](#): > > I agree with you. Well, I agree with everything you said except the “however you define them” part, because if I wanted to define “Assault Weapons” as any semi automatic gun, then I think you would be wrong and there would be a significant downtick in homicide rates immediately after the magic wand. Ok, but I didnt mean however you WANT to define them. I meant however they have been defined in any of several legal definitions. Still, there simply couldn’t be. All rifles of any sort, including the AR15 ect only account for 4% or so of gun crimes. I mean, I guess someone could want to define “assault weapon” as “any gun”. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2018, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-not-anti-guns-i-am-anti-bullet-holes-in-my-patients/824268/117 "2018-11-13T20:22:11Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > This doesn’t even make sense.[In 2016, 278,600 break-ins occurred at night with 486,006 happening during the day with $2,361 stolen on average.](https://www.forbes.com/sites/niallmccarthy/2018/02/16/the-u-s-states-with-the-highest-rates-of-burglary-infographic/#7a83ca642d45) So altogether, we’ve got ~883K armed robberies and unarmed burglaries per year. > > And then we’ve supposedly got somewhere between 500K and 3000K DGUs. Presumably just about all of these represent the resident of a home defending his home against a home invasion of some sort - burglary or armed robbery. That’s how many were reported to the Police, not how many happened. And I had two defensive uses during the few years when I had a CWP, and neither of them involved a home invasion of some sort . So your assumptions are incorrect, thus leading to a incorrect result. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2018, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-not-anti-guns-i-am-anti-bullet-holes-in-my-patients/824268/118 "2018-11-13T20:25:44Z")
> [@Lamoral](#): > > . With a Republican pro-gun president who is an NRA supporter, and who I will believe will serve two terms (though that’s another discussion entirely), a Supreme Court that he’s stacking in his favor and may yet continue to do so; and with gun control being politically very difficult to achieve, it’s so unlikely that we’re actually going to see any restrictions passed, that calling for more gun control at this point is almost becoming as much an exercise in futility as the “thoughts and prayers” which are so widely mocked. > > If the death toll of these shootings is to be reduced _in the here and now_, it seems to me that the best strategy is doubling down on addressing the root causes of the violence. That includes mental health support, and making it harder for people known to be dangerous to slip through the cracks, as happened with the Parkland shooter over and over again. Also some kind of concerted effort to reach out to troubled kids in high school and pre-emptively deal with the anger and hatred that motivates them to lash out violently. Trump really isnt pro-gun, in fact before he ran, he was espousing about the same gun laws as Hillary. He is riding that train, sure. Good ideas there! ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2018, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-not-anti-guns-i-am-anti-bullet-holes-in-my-patients/824268/119 "2018-11-13T20:26:50Z")
> [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > … > > The science supports gun regulation, but the NRA arguing against arguing against looking at the issue in an objective scientific manner because they answer… No, no it doesn’t. Those studies were not scientifically done and biased from the get -go. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2018, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-not-anti-guns-i-am-anti-bullet-holes-in-my-patients/824268/120 "2018-11-13T21:06:22Z")
> [@control-z](#): > > I’m opposed to gun violence, I’m opposed to knife violence, I’m opposed to car accidents, I’m opposed to hospital errors, and I’m opposed to swimming pool drownings. > > I’m not opposed to guns, knives, cars, hospitals, or swimming pools. But are you opposed to car licensing, hospital oversight, or laws requiring fences around pools to discourage drowning? If not, are you opposed to registering guns? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-not-anti-guns-i-am-anti-bullet-holes-in-my-patients/824268.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-not-anti-guns-i-am-anti-bullet-holes-in-my-patients/824268.md?page=7)