I am not I: The fastest biochemical event and the speed of light, or, The Bathroom Mirror phenomenon

No. That was not what the cites were about.

The point that I was trying to make in my original post - perhaps ineptly, but in any case the point got lost in the subsequent noise - is that your original scenario is misconceived, because there is no clearly defined instant (clearly defined at scales relevant to light-speed events) at which the experience of your face occurs or begins. You certainly do not begin to experience your face at the instant that the first photons reflected from it (and re-reflected from the mirror) strike your retina. There is nothing particularly experientially significant about that moment. Indeed, if, a few nanoseconds, or even microseconds after that first wave of photons arrived, they somehow stopped coming, you would not have any such experience at all.

Visual experience is not something that happens at a nanosecond-scale instant. It takes time to constitute itself, and the process has no very clearly marked beginning or end point. Neural and cognitive processes that were constitutive of the experience of seeing your face in the mirror began well before those first photons arrived at your eyes (indeed, well before they first reflected off your face) - this is why I mentioned the predictive aspects of perception - and they need to continue long afterwards in order for you to have the relevant experience. We are talking about timescales on the order of 10ths of a second here, not the nanosecond timescales at which (I take your word for it) the light gets from face to eye. Furthermore, different aspects of the experience get processed at different rates: for instance, visual shape information and color information are processed in different parts of the brain, so that, given the relatively slow speed of nervous conduction, they are bound to deliver their first results at different times, yet we do not subjectively experience a face’s shape and layout before we experience its color (or vice-versa). At the timescale appropriate to understanding brain processes (itself very much slower than that appropriate to local optical processes) a subjectively instantaneous visual experience is, in fact, very smeared out in time.

Actually it is worse than that, because recognizing a face, even recognizing a very familiar one, such as your own, is usually going to require you to move your gaze around the mirror image in front of you, to bring the spotlight of foveal attention successively on to its different features. That of course, all takes time. For each eye movement, the brain has to compute where the eye probably needs to be pointed to gather the next needed diagnostic information; it has to send out the signal to move to the eye muscles, along the relevant motor nerves; the muscles have to execute the movement; and then, the information from the new pattern of stimulation falling on the retina has to be sent back to the brain, and processed in the several relevant cortical and thalamic areas. Luckily, we can pack a few such eye movements (and associated neural computations) into a second or so, and those few will probably be enough for you to recognize the face, to see it as a face, and even as your face, with a reasonable degree of confidence; although it is well to be aware that there is no well defined end to the recognition process, and in most circumstances your eyes will continue to move over the mirror image, checking the features further, for some time more.

So, seeing your face in the mirror probably, in normal circumstances, takes a minimum of roughly one second. And the roughness here is not just a matter of our ignorance; is inherent in the nature of the relevant processes. Certainly a few nanoseconds here or there are of absolutely no consequence.

Thus this (from the OP):

is, to all intents and purposes, nonsense. You are committing a form of the fallacy of false precision. The paradoxical (and thus, for some, kinda thrilling) notion that our experience is always experience of the past arises only when we apply inappropriate time-scales to our thinking about cognition and subjective experience, and when we baselessly privilege certain events (such as the first arrival of certain photons at the retina) over others that are in fact, far more significant to the formation and timing of our experiences.

Sure, you can ask what biochemical processes have had time to occur in the time that light took to go from your face to your mirror and on to your eye, but the answer is of no scientific, philosophical or phenomenological significance. You do not, in fact, experience yourself as you were 23.6 (or whatever) nanoseconds ago. On a timescale appropriate to the description of experiences (or even on the somewhat finer timescale appropriate to the description of neural events) you experience your face in the mirror just as it is at the time of the experience.

The stuff that kanicbird (and others) say about “time lags,” compensatory mechanisms, and reterospective changes to our experience are also symptoms of having fallen prey to this error.

A classic. I read that over 10 years ago, still one of the most memorable short SF stories ever.

Only on the Dope!

Good catch!

Slow Glass- I’d never read that. What a good story!

I have been following these posts.

For now, and particularly to njtt–to whom I’d like to thank for his close attention to the topic. However, it is the wrong topic, and my lazy Doper-speak is to blame.

In my OP, I wrote “it occured to me that who I was seeing was actually the same person from 23.6 nanoseconds ago.” My header, "with “fastest biochemical event,” I thought I had forestalled the misconception, I believe, that led to the brunt of your argument. The thread became one running along the timing and transmission of visual signals, then to cognitive strategies with them, and ultimately, as these things so often do, to questions of mind and self.

All of this was set off by my (lazily) saying “who I was seeing.” The correct sense of my question is "who I actually was a scant few nanoseconds, but for, perhaps, a scant few changes in my biological system, the nature and speed of which interested me. Indeed, at an atomic level, some ionizing radiation activity radiation, or even neutrino Cherenkov occurrence (the calculations are given in the current long thread “Can neutrinos travel faster than light”) might have a bearing on the objective state of my (local coordinate frame) body to my later (local coordinate frame) body.

Nobody says I’ve fallen into the Cartesian Error and gets away with it…

This appears to be garbled, but for my best guess as to its meaning, the answer is that you were you all along. The situation you originally described involves no particular paradox or weirdness.

If your question is what changes can take place in your body over the interval of 23.6 nanoseconds, I suppose there is an answer to that, but it raises the question of why you should care about such short-timescale changes as that, and why that particular interval, which is of no biological, psychological or physical significance.

Meh. People do it all the time, especially the smart ones. I am sure I do. Why should you be different. What matters is to own it when it gets pointed out to you.

I care because I’m interested. As an analytical fillip, let us say. As in the amount of radians light would bend around me, as a general relativity question (for those who care, the recent thread is on this board). Or Lorentz contraction in a handshake. These are of interest to me.

We can’t “see” ourselves in mirrors, not like we do when looking at other peole. Our eyes never move.

What we need is “slow mirrors.” A two-second delay would probably do it. Don’t bother with five nanoseconds. Extend the time-delay artifically!

Try this: record yourself with a webcam while treating your computer monitor as a mirror. Comb your hair, look at your teeth, etc. Now play back the recording. Aaaa! You’ll actually see what others always see: see what you really look like! It’s the 3D visual version of “listening to your recorded voice.” Definitely NOT a mirror. But the only difference is a short time delay which cuts the observed motions of your face and head loose from your direct intantaneous control.

OT: As a kid I was proud of the fact that I figured out how dangerous this stuff would be. A year of sunny days, stored in a layer a fraction of a millimeter thick? That’s an energy storage device. What if it all came out in a millisecond? First accident with a rock or baseball and your house could be incinerated. There’d be shadows charred into the walls of kids playing catch, as in Ray Bradbury’s “There will come soft rains.”

I will do this tomorrow, get back to you, and re-read your post. Sounds interesting.

Manfred Eigen, Nobel Prize lecture, December 1967:
Immeasurably Fast Reactions

Neutralization reactions: 10[sup]-10[/sup]–10[sup]-11[/sup] sec

Interesting, what little I get of it.

There’s a doozy of a science fiction movie in all this somewhere.

Am I the only one amused that the last post before Leo Bloom bumped the thread, was Leo Bloom saying that he’d get back to us “tomorrow” (four years ago)?

He must be further away than we thought.

[Matthew Mccohnaughey]

Time…is a flat circle.

[MM/]
To add something relavent, according to the wiki on nematocysts, AKA “jellyfish stinging thingies”, “* Recent research suggests the process to occur as fast as 700 nanoseconds”*. Biologically, that’s pretty damn fast.

:smiley:

He tried that “slow mirror / slow webcam” experiment that wbeaty suggested but it went wrong and he fell through a wormhole and got himself chronosynclastic infundibulated there for a while. Welcome back, Leo Bloom!

I’ve got negative gobs to spare. Although temporarily temporally dilatory, at least I’m still on the plus side of wbeaty.

Chronos, how fast was I going for 5840:1?