# I am Pagan. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 2, 2002, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-pagan/134952 "2002-11-02T02:50:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2002, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-pagan/134952/21 "2002-11-02T05:16:23Z")
I stand corrected. 99.949995% it is. I just find it incredible that somebody is complaining about being witnessed to while she herself sits behind a witnessing table. Freedom of religion and freedom of speeech mean that everybody gets to tell you about their own religion if they want to. ---
**Author:** ![racinchikki](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/eada6e/32.png) [@racinchikki](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/racinchikki)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2002, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-pagan/134952/22 "2002-11-02T05:16:43Z")
Sitting there with a table, allowing people to make the choice to come to you and ask questions, is very not the same as walking up to complete strangers and informing them, whether they wanted you to or not, of what you believe and why they should agree with you. I don’t believe that the first is proselytizing or however it’s spelled; the second indubitably is. And minty green, just because, according to you, “99.95% of the country believes her religion is crap” doesn’t mean she has to sit back and like it. ---
**Author:** ![nashiitashii](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/7c8e57/32.png) [@nashiitashii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nashiitashii)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2002, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-pagan/134952/23 "2002-11-02T05:27:21Z")
Minty Green, I don’t walk up to people and make a spectacle of myself by wearing something that obviously identifies me as Pagan, especially when I’m not tabling. I get most of the prosletyzing at when I’m not tabling and especially on days when I’m with other organizations that have _nothing to do with my religion._ I don’t approach them, I don’t go up to people and try to prosletyze when I answer questions for people. I sit at the table, and if I have a friend tabling with me, I talk with them about our day and what’s up until someone comes around and says something to us. We have the table set up with a sign and informational stuff most of the time so that people can decide to pick up information if they want or just ask us a question. Also, Minty Green, do you have statement to back up your percent representing my group? And also, what do you consider to be lumped in the term “Pagan”? There’s a great many definitions, and I’m wondering which one you use. ---
**Author:** ![lel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8797f3/32.png) [@lel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lel)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2002, 5:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-pagan/134952/24 "2002-11-02T05:32:04Z")
> [@](#): > > And minty green, just because, according to you, “99.95% of the country believes her religion is crap” doesn’t mean she has to sit back and like it. No, she doesn’t have to like it, but it’s going to happen. A major tenet of the religion of some Christians is that they have to engage in evangelism, and as a Pagan, **MIS** is unfortunately an open target. I’m sorry it has to happen, but what if you thought that people of all other religions were going to go to hell forever? I’d be out there trying to convince the Pagan representatives, and everyone else that I knew who didn’t share my religious beliefs, that my religion was correct in the best manner possible and whenever possible. ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2002, 5:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-pagan/134952/25 "2002-11-02T05:37:46Z")
You will note, **racinchikki** , that I did not say **MIS** was proselytizing. She is, however, witnessing from behind that table, where she is also inviting comments from passersby. It’s silly to then turn around and complain when those comments don’t all just tell her how neat it is that she’s a Pagan, and how they’re so happy that she’s made this personal choice, and that even though they don’t personally agree with her they’d never want to try to convince her of anything contrary to her deeply held personal religious beliefs. Feh. You should also note that I did not say she had to _like_ the fact that virtually everyone thinks her religious beliefs are invalid. But she should learn to live with that fact without whining about it. If **MIS** opens a thread in GD called “Ask the Pagan Girl,” and other posters start telling her about Jesus, saying they’ll pray for her, asking her to go to church with them, etc., ya know what? That’s just **MIS** ’s tough shit. Religious tolerance is a two-way street. ---
**Author:** ![happyheathen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5e925/32.png) [@happyheathen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/happyheathen)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2002, 5:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-pagan/134952/26 "2002-11-02T05:38:19Z")
when does **…everybody gets to tell you about their own religion if they want to.** become harassment? a) under civil law? b) under criminal law? ---
**Author:** ![nashiitashii](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/7c8e57/32.png) [@nashiitashii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nashiitashii)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2002, 5:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-pagan/134952/27 "2002-11-02T05:40:04Z")
Lel, I do understand that POV. I pretty much tell people that try to change my mind that I’ve got a different thought on it and that they’re not likely to convince me to go back to Christianity. I also tell them that I don’t believe in Hell [or Heaven for that matter], and that I should at least be left alone in that thought because it’s extremely unlikely they’ll be successful in converting me. I’m just wondering how many Muslims they ardently attempt to convert. I should probably ask a few of the girls that I know that are Muslim… but I’ll have to wait until Monday for that answer. ---
**Author:** ![happyheathen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5e925/32.png) [@happyheathen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/happyheathen)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2002, 5:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-pagan/134952/28 "2002-11-02T05:43:09Z")
and a follow-up: how does: **Religious tolerance is a two-way street** relate to harassment? “tolerance” and “proselytizing” are very different things. (at least in my world. YMMV.) ---
**Author:** ![lel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8797f3/32.png) [@lel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lel)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2002, 5:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-pagan/134952/29 "2002-11-02T05:43:59Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mirrored Indigo Shadows \* > \*\*Minty Green, I don’t walk up to people and make a spectacle of myself by wearing something that obviously identifies me as Pagan, especially when I’m not tabling. I get most of the prosletyzing at when I’m not tabling and especially on days when I’m with other organizations that have _nothing to do with my religion._ \*\* I think the whole point of proselytizing is that it doesn’t end when a person is not openly identifying with their religion. They’re still a member of that religion, and as far as the proselytizers are concerned, still headed to the big inferno in the sky. If they really believe in their religion, they _should_ be remembering that you are a Pagan and proselytizing you even when you aren’t at the table. > [@](#): > > Lel, I do understand that POV. I pretty much tell people that try to change my mind that I’ve got a different thought on it and that they’re not likely to convince me to go back to Christianity. I also tell them that I don’t believe in Hell [or Heaven for that matter], and that I should at least be left alone in that thought because it’s extremely unlikely they’ll be successful in converting me. I’m just wondering how many Muslims they ardently attempt to convert. I should probably ask a few of the girls that I know that are Muslim… but I’ll have to wait until Monday for that answer. At that point, do they tend to go off and pray for you and the Muslims? ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2002, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-pagan/134952/30 "2002-11-02T05:45:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Lilairen \* > Minty Green, I do “deal with” that sort of bigotry. It’s not bigotry, Lilairen. It’s religious debate. If you don’t like having your religion questioned by others, don’t talk about it. Kinda like politics > [@](#): > > “That’s what you get for being a member of a minority” is not an acceptable attitude to me Depends on what kind of “minority” you’re talking about, doesn’t it? I’d say that communists are a pretty tiny minority in this country. But if you sit behind a table draped in a hammer-and-sickle flag on the student commons, don’t fucking complain about it when other people start to tell you about the wonders of capitalism and how the dictatorship of the proletariat is nothing more than a myth. > [@](#): > > They’re grounded in the real world where various minorities are ignored or considered irrelevant at best, and targeted for abuse or harm at worst, and are the front line in combating the ignorance that makes that prejudice possible. I’m sorry, I must have missed the part of the OP where she spoke about being targeted for abuse or harm. Would you take a moment to point out where that has been mentioned anywhere in this thread before you brought it up yourself? ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2002, 5:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-pagan/134952/31 "2002-11-02T05:47:20Z")
What harassment, happyheathen? Nothing described in the OP resembles anything like harassment. ---
**Author:** ![armedmonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@armedmonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/armedmonkey)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2002, 5:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-pagan/134952/32 "2002-11-02T05:55:26Z")
> [@](#): > > _originally posted by mirrored indigo shadows whose name is just too damn long and I hope she doesn’t mind that I shorten it to “mirror”_ > \*\*I take principles of faith from different areas, mostly Norse and Eastern religions \*\* Norse and Eastern? Good God, where does Loki fit in? I’m curious about this because the two views are so different. Chuang Tzu may be content to wait till his enemy floats down the river, but Thor would wade up steam and knock his ass down with his hammer. Which is better? I suppose finding the balance between the two is the best. But please, don’t fall in to the “rebellious” trap and discount Christianity and Jesus. You gave him props in your last post, but his contribution can not be understated. Too bad too many don’t actually listen. His words are some of the wisest things ever put down on paper… but he never actually wrote anything so the gospels should be taken with a grain of salt (Luke is the best). Anyway, I think Jesus and Budha would be good drinking buddies. That pretty much sums up my religous philosophy. ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2002, 6:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-pagan/134952/33 "2002-11-02T06:00:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mirrored Indigo Shadows \* > Minty Green, I don’t walk up to people and make a spectacle of myself by wearing something that obviously identifies me as Pagan, especially when I’m not tabling. I get most of the prosletyzing at when I’m not tabling and especially on days when I’m with other organizations that have _nothing to do with my religion._ And yet your own OP indicates that you are recognized and witnessed to away from the table _because they recognize you from your own witnessing table._ What, like there’s some special rule that nobody’s allowed to talk to you about your publicly-declared faith unless you’ve got a “Pagan On Duty” sign in front of you? > [@](#): > > Also, Minty Green, do you have statement to back up your percent representing my group? Of course not. I pulled it out of my ass. Surely you recognize, however, that Pagans are a tiny, tiny minority of people in this country, right? I suppose I could go Google some census data to see if there are any figures, but I’m feeling lazy right now. > [@](#): > > And also, what do you consider to be lumped in the term “Pagan”? There’s a great many definitions, and I’m wondering which one you use. I don’t. Doesn’t really matter. Merely by not being Christian in this country, you’re already in the minority. Exclude Jewish and Muslim and you’re in an even tinier minority, then take out the atheists and agnostics, the Buddhists and the Sikhs. That takes care of virtually everybody, and they all think your beliefs are wacky, except for Beeblebrox, who has for some reason apparently determined that there’s room for a few extra gods in the Christian Trinity. (I kid! What, you’re Unitarian? :)) Like I said, no big deal–that doesn’t have anything to do with the validity of your faith, nor does it impede your ability to believe and worship as you see fit. But they’re entitled to their assessment of your beliefs every bit as much as you are entitled to your assessment of theirs. Two-way street, you see. ---
**Author:** ![nashiitashii](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/7c8e57/32.png) [@nashiitashii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nashiitashii)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2002, 6:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-pagan/134952/34 "2002-11-02T06:03:49Z")
Well, Minty, do you really want to know where harassment comes into play? I didn’t _want_ to bring it up, but it seems I should now: A few weeks ago when we were tabling, someone had decided they knew enough about us and written the word “demons” [actually, it was “demens,” but the harmful intention was there nontheless] on the wall behind us in permanent marker. I’m sure that any other religious organization would’ve gotten sympathy from other groups. I don’t think any of the organizations really care that it happened besides us. Also, Beeblebrox, we’d have to email back and forth my ideas on life, etc. It’s very complex to some extent, and I am saying I take more my ideas on how life works and how life should be lived than picking deities from these belief systems. ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2002, 6:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-pagan/134952/35 "2002-11-02T06:05:47Z")
Okay, THAT is a legitimate complaint. So how come you chose to whine about people disagreeing with your religion, instead of somebody defacing your space and calling you names? ---
**Author:** ![nashiitashii](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/7c8e57/32.png) [@nashiitashii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nashiitashii)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2002, 6:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-pagan/134952/36 "2002-11-02T06:10:47Z")
I’m offended to your reference of it being a “witnessing table.” You wouldn’t call a table by any other minority student organization a “witnessing table,” now would you? We don’t worship together, and it’s a social group, which makes it different from most if not all the other religious organizations on campus. As for the people prosletyzing to me, I’ve had people stop me on my way to class and _insist_ on talking to me when I don’t have time, or _insist_ that I talk with them about theology when my current duty is to be helping out another organization in some sort of public community service or fundraising effort. Are you saying that my religion absolutely has to be brought up in every aspect of my life? I personally don’t think so. I didn’t bring up my religion in the group that I was in until _after_ someone outside the group decided it was necessary to discuss it when I didn’t feel it was apropriate to. How’d you like it if coworkers decided they needed to prosletyze to you while you’re on the clock? That’s how it feels when I’m approached and asked to explain myself when I’m doing things for other organizations. ---
**Author:** ![nashiitashii](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/7c8e57/32.png) [@nashiitashii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nashiitashii)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2002, 6:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-pagan/134952/37 "2002-11-02T06:17:20Z")
Minty, I honestly don’t think you have the realization of the weight that being who I am [physically and theologically] bears on me. I’m unfortunately “blessed” with an appearance that stands out in a crowd, which makes me noticeable just about everywhere I go. Secondly, any time I go into, say, a bookstore, and I buy something that is even remotely hinting towards me not being mainstream everything, I’ve got looks from some of the [presumably more closedminded and conservative] cashiers that are worse than the kind you’d give to a known child molester. Being atheist is more accepted than my religion, and the area that I’m in now seems to breed closedmindedness… I avoided the topic of my religion with my roommate because I knew it would most likely be problematic, and well, the issue got raised, and she backed off as soon as she heard what I was theologically speaking. ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2002, 6:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-pagan/134952/38 "2002-11-02T06:22:47Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mirrored Indigo Shadows \* > I’m offended to your reference of it being a “witnessing table.” You are apparently offended by all manner of things. Hence, my admonition to you to grow up. > [@](#): > > You wouldn’t call a table by any other minority student organization a “witnessing table,” now would you? Hell yes I would. Especially if it is operated by a religious organization, such as your own. > [@](#): > > We don’t worship together, and it’s a social group, which makes it different from most if not all the other religious organizations on campus. I don’t care whether you worship together or not. Your purpose for that table is still religious in nature, as is your group. You readily conceded that you answer all kinds of questions about your Pagan beliefs while seated behind it, you pass out literature, and an express purpose for being there is to inform other people of similar beliefs that they can join you. Your table walks, talks, and quacks like a religious religious organization. > [@](#): > > As for the people prosletyzing to me, I’ve had people stop me on my way to class and _insist_ on talking to me when I don’t have time, or _insist_ that I talk with them about theology when my current duty is to be helping out another organization in some sort of public community service or fundraising effort. Tell 'em to fuck off. Works like a charm when proselytizing fundamentalists show up on my doorstep. > [@](#): > > Are you saying that my religion absolutely has to be brought up in every aspect of my life? Of course not. And how typical that you can only speak of this in absolutes (“absolutely has to be”).l Now, are you saying religion _can’t_ be brought up away from your table? I personally don’t think so. > [@](#): > > How’d you like it if coworkers decided they needed to prosletyze to you while you’re on the clock? I’d ask them to stop. If they didn’t, I’d tell them to stop. If they still didn’t, I’d tell them to fuck off. I’m telling you, it works like a charm. And the whole process can be completed in about 10 seconds, at which point you can get on with the rest of your life. ---
**Author:** ![Lilairen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8491ac/32.png) [@Lilairen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lilairen)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2002, 6:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-pagan/134952/39 "2002-11-02T06:23:23Z")
Minty Green, did you miss > [@](#): > > It’s like I have to prove that I’m a decent person before I can prove that the people who share my beliefs have a right to exist. in the original post? It was bolded, which I suggest would normally draw it to the eye. I cannot believe that you are unaware that many such student groups are formed by groups that are typically targetted for abuse and harm to provide support and disabuse people of their misconceptions. Or that pagans, as a grouping, are frequently the targets of such. ---
**Author:** ![Soup\_du\_jour](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/848f3c/32.png) [@Soup\_du\_jour](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Soup_du_jour)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2002, 6:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-pagan/134952/40 "2002-11-02T06:24:19Z")
In my understanding, “witnessing” means the public acknowledgement of a held religious belief. “Proseletyzing” is actively trying to convert someone else. Shoot, when I wear my ring that has a crucifix on it, and when someone asks about it and I explain, I consider that to be witnessing. Since when was “witnessing” such a bad thing, anyway? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-pagan/134952.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-pagan/134952.md?page=3)