# I am Pagan. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 2, 2002, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-pagan/134952 "2002-11-02T02:50:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2002, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-pagan/134952/61 "2002-11-02T16:05:42Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mirrored Indigo Shadows \* > So, essentially, you’re saying I _don’t_ have the right to be left alone when I want to be unless I decide to be an asshole about it? You don’t have the right to be left alone when you’re walking around and doing stuff in public. It is 100% acceptable for a person who recognizes you from your own witnessing efforts–low-scale though they are–to approach you and ask to discuss religious matters with you. You, in turn, are 100% entitled to decline the invitation, in strong language if necessary. That’s the way the world works. ---
**Author:** ![JDeMobray](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/85e7bf/32.png) [@JDeMobray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JDeMobray)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2002, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-pagan/134952/62 "2002-11-02T16:20:34Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by minty green \* > \*\*You don’t have the right to be left alone when you’re walking around and doing stuff in public. \*\* That’s, unfortunately, what makes this country great. Lousy freedoms. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2002, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-pagan/134952/63 "2002-11-02T16:22:48Z")
> [@](#): > > Then lose the table and the public declarations of pagan-ness. I bet you won’t get preached at very much at all if you didn’t make it such a big deal in the first place. And hey, if proselytizing is against your beliefs anyway, what’s the point of setting up the table and announcing your presence anyway? “Hey guys, we’re pagans! Come ask us questions, read our pamphlets, and join our club! But we’re not trying to spread our belief system or anything.” Come on. Are you honestly unfamiliar with the difference between educating and proselytizing? You sound like those people who think that gay and lesbian student groups are trying to convert people to homosexuality. > [@](#): > > I’m honestly not trying to condemn you here or anything, but there is a certain level of hypocricy to your OP that I just couldn’t let pass. If you’re going to ask for religious tolerance for yourself, you’ve got to return that tolerance when somebody else when they tell you about their religion–even if it’s a lot of somebodies who tell you about it. Bullpucky. I don’t appreciate people telling me my religion is morally inferior, and I don’t have to put up with that. I don’t go up to random strangers and tell them that they’re going to burn if they don’t convert to paganism right away and I insist on the same consideration. They have every right to _do so_; I just say it’s _bloody rude and classless_. ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2002, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-pagan/134952/64 "2002-11-02T16:31:39Z")
> [@](#): > > Then lose the table and the public declarations of pagan-ness. I bet you won’t get preached at very much at all if you didn’t make it such a big deal in the first place. And hey, if proselytizing is against your beliefs anyway, what’s the point of setting up the table and announcing your presence anyway? “Hey guys, we’re pagans! Come ask us questions, read our pamphlets, and join our club! But we’re not trying to spread our belief system or anything.” Come on. Are you honestly unfamiliar with the difference between educating and proselytizing? You sound like those people who think that gay and lesbian student groups are trying to convert people to homosexuality. > [@](#): > > I’m honestly not trying to condemn you here or anything, but there is a certain level of hypocricy to your OP that I just couldn’t let pass. If you’re going to ask for religious tolerance for yourself, you’ve got to return that tolerance when somebody else when they tell you about their religion–even if it’s a lot of somebodies who tell you about it. Bullpucky. I don’t appreciate people telling me my religion is morally inferior, and I don’t have to put up with that. I don’t go up to random strangers and tell them that they’re going to burn if they don’t convert to paganism right away and I insist on the same consideration. They have every right to _do so_; I just say it’s _bloody rude and classless_. ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2002, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-pagan/134952/65 "2002-11-02T16:39:42Z")
> [@](#): > > Then lose the table and the public declarations of pagan-ness. I bet you won’t get preached at very much at all if you didn’t make it such a big deal in the first place. And hey, if proselytizing is against your beliefs anyway, what’s the point of setting up the table and announcing your presence anyway? “Hey guys, we’re pagans! Come ask us questions, read our pamphlets, and join our club! But we’re not trying to spread our belief system or anything.” Come on. Are you honestly unfamiliar with the difference between educating and proselytizing? You sound like those people who think that gay and lesbian student groups are trying to convert people to homosexuality. > [@](#): > > I’m honestly not trying to condemn you here or anything, but there is a certain level of hypocricy to your OP that I just couldn’t let pass. If you’re going to ask for religious tolerance for yourself, you’ve got to return that tolerance when somebody else when they tell you about their religion–even if it’s a lot of somebodies who tell you about it. Bullpucky. I don’t appreciate people telling me my religion is morally inferior, and I don’t have to put up with that. I don’t go up to random strangers and tell them that they’re going to burn if they don’t convert to paganism right away and I insist on the same consideration. They have every right to _do so_; I just say it’s _bloody rude and classless_. ---
**Author:** ![crystalgrl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/76d3ee/32.png) [@crystalgrl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crystalgrl)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2002, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-pagan/134952/66 "2002-11-02T17:01:51Z")
I find this whole topic interesting. Each of us has our options on how we live our lives so good luck to everyone. ``` Mirror I have had a similal experence at a local book store. I am just trying to learn about the world around me and other religions. The woman who rung up the books I was paying for told me that "you look like a nice, sensiable girl and that you should not read about the devil" and also gave me a look. I let it go but I just wish that people would be more open but at this time it is not happening but mabye someday it will. ``` ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2002, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-pagan/134952/67 "2002-11-02T17:04:46Z")
> [@](#): > > You sound like those people who think that gay and lesbian student groups are trying to convert people to homosexuality Actually, he sounds to me like someone who thinks that gay and lesbian student groups are trying to convince people that being gay or lesbian is acceptable in society. Isn’t that what they _are_ trying to do? ---
**Author:** ![lel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8797f3/32.png) [@lel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lel)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2002, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-pagan/134952/68 "2002-11-02T18:00:31Z")
> [@](#): > > My religion forbids protelytizing because it is seen to be an attempt to impose your will on another against their will… which we define as unethical behavior on par with rape, murder, and theft. I am not exaggerating with that comparison, we really do see it as criminal behavior. > > On the other hand, we have no problem with homosexual practices, which other groups view as a reason to put people to death. > > Now, living in a predominently Judeo-Christian society I realize I have to tolerate a certain amount of what I see as unethical and immoral behavior because I don’t have the power to change the entire country to my belief system (and even if I had that power, I couldn’t use for ethical reasons), but that doesn’t mean I like it, condone it, or approve of it. Until the law sees it the same way (and even then some people would probably ignore that, but I’m not sure I’d condone that), the proselytizers will probably keep on going. Sorry to be unethical, but they’d see it as equally unethical not to proselytize when people’s eternal destinies are at stake. As for homosexual behavior, I’ve yet to meet a single “proselytizer” who was in favor of killing homosexuals. > [@](#): > > Right… and women and children used to be beaten “for their own good”, and slavery was justified in part as a means to bring Christianity to the heathens. I’m not advocating those measures. Proselytizing should not leave bruises, and it should not take away major freedoms. For example, from the examples you listed in the previous post, banging on someone’s door at 5 am and shoving so many tracts in their mailbox that they cannot get their mail are more harrassment than proselytizing, and quite unlikely to work to boot. While converting souls might be urgent, sometimes the proselytizers should take another look at what might actually work instead of turning people off their faith. > [@](#): > > Hmm… isn’t that one of the justifications used by the likes of the Taliban, Al-Quaeda, and other groups who kill and maim and destroy? We’re right, you’re wrong, therefore we have the right to kill you. > > Hey, I am well aware the majority of folks out there are not like this, regardless of religious stripe. But it’s stupid to pretend extremists don’t exist. Unfortunately, extremists do exist, and extremism must end where the life of another is endangered, and should end well before that point. There is a tension between doing enough proselytizing to ensure that someone understands the message being spread and doing so much that they will no longer listen. > [@](#): > > Are you honestly unfamiliar with the difference between educating and proselytizing? You sound like those people who think that gay and lesbian student groups are trying to convert people to homosexuality. Gay and lesbian student groups do not call themselves a religion. With a religion, the implication is there, deservedly or not, that they are there to educate and also to attract people to their own religion. The same implication is absent with gay and lesbian student groups, which are not religious. ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2002, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-pagan/134952/69 "2002-11-02T18:09:18Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by andros \* > Actually, he sounds to me like someone who thinks that gay and lesbian student groups are trying to convince people that being gay or lesbian is acceptable in society. > > Isn’t that what they _are_ trying to do? Quite so. If **matt\_mcl** spends his time trying to convince the public about tolerance and acceptance of homosexuality, he should reasonably expect to have people with different opinions seek to discuss the topic with him. If it turns into harassment or even annoying pushiness, you have a legitimate complaint. Short of that, tough luck. You get to speak your mind, they get to speak their minds. ---
**Author:** ![happyheathen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5e925/32.png) [@happyheathen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/happyheathen)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2002, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-pagan/134952/70 "2002-11-02T20:44:10Z")
**You get to speak your mind, they get to speak their minds.** even if they use aggressive, confrontational, threatening manners? Being harassed when buying a book is beyond the pall. and **lel** , the fact your religion “requires” you do to something does _ **NOT** _ make it acceptable. I thought that had been pretty much decided. ---
**Author:** ![Mac\_Guffin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/2bfe46/32.png) [@Mac\_Guffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mac_Guffin)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2002, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-pagan/134952/71 "2002-11-02T21:18:22Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by crystalgrl \* > \*\* The woman who rung up the books I was paying for told me that “you look like a nice, sensiable girl and that you should not read about the devil” and also gave me a look. I let it go but I just wish that people would be more open but at this time it is not happening but mabye someday it will. \*\* I think that, if this happened to me, I would have the presence of mind to retort, “Just think,\* you\* SOLD me this book. Who is the greater sinner, one who is led into sin, or one who leads?” Or something to that effect. ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2002, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-pagan/134952/72 "2002-11-02T21:25:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by happyheathen \* > even if they use aggressive, confrontational, threatening manners? > > Being harassed when buying a book is beyond the pall. Do you have the slightest idea of how to read, asshole? I have already pointed out to you TWICE that the OP did not mention ANYTHING that could POSSIBLY be construed as harassment or intimidation. Quit making shit up, dumbass. God_damn_, you are one useless pile of puke. ---
**Author:** ![happyheathen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5e925/32.png) [@happyheathen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/happyheathen)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2002, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-pagan/134952/73 "2002-11-02T21:42:36Z")
Yes, Texas-sized shithead, but can you read PAST the OP? We passed the part about religious conversations, and entered the realm of boorish/actionable behaviour some time back. An idiot injecting himself into the OPer’s life, when OPer does not wish him to, is the subject at hand. The Q: (again, for those who are a bit slow) At what point does “debate” become “proselytizing” become “unacceptable” become “actionable”? sub-Q: does one’s religious beliefs justify otherwise unacceptable behaviour? and **minty** , vulgarity is _so_ unprofessional - what would the Bar think? for instance, my continued posting in this thread is annoying dear old minty, TOUGH SHIT! - (so sayeth minty) ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2002, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-pagan/134952/74 "2002-11-02T21:55:28Z")
Vulgarity is fucking _mandatory_ in the legal profession, particularly when confronted with dishonesty and stupidity. Now run along and play in traffic, little boy. I have no desire to argue with your strawman. ---
**Author:** ![happyheathen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5e925/32.png) [@happyheathen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/happyheathen)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2002, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-pagan/134952/75 "2002-11-02T21:59:08Z")
but my religion REQUIRES me to show you the error of your ways, lest your soul be damned! ---
**Author:** ![Mac\_Guffin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/2bfe46/32.png) [@Mac\_Guffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mac_Guffin)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2002, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-pagan/134952/76 "2002-11-02T22:07:47Z")
Anyone here think minty green hasn’t stepped WAYYYY over the jerk line here? Raise your hands… ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2002, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-pagan/134952/77 "2002-11-02T22:10:49Z")
In precisely what way do you think I’m acting like a jerk, **particlewill**? ---
**Author:** ![Mac\_Guffin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/2bfe46/32.png) [@Mac\_Guffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mac_Guffin)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2002, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-pagan/134952/78 "2002-11-02T22:28:41Z")
Oh please. The OP posts that she is tired of being bothered by people who press their religious views on herself in an obnoxious and uninvited manner. You come storming in here with, “it’s a free country, quit whining” and that quietly sitting at a table with a sign is the same as getting in someone’s face telling them that they are going to hell. You state that the OP’s complaint is somehow “illegitimate”, as if you are the grand arbiter of legitimacy. You turn a persons wish to be left in peace into some kind of insane freedom of speech harangue with increasing frenzy. Many have called you on all this. You are being a jerk. ---
**Author:** ![Jodi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7feea3/32.png) [@Jodi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jodi)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2002, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-pagan/134952/79 "2002-11-02T22:42:41Z")
MIS – > [@](#): > > So, essentially, you’re saying I _don’t_ have the right to be left alone when I want to be unless I decide to be an asshole about it? In a nutshell . . . No. A few points: 1. When you set yourself up as a spokesperson for (or even just a person who is willing to discuss) a given topic, then people will assume that you are in fact willing to discuss it. They may very well not understand that you would prefer to segregate the times during which you are willing to speak on behalf of (or about) your topic – such as when you’re manning the table – from the times during which you’d rather not. The belief that one who speaks about or for a cause must want to speak about it 24/7 is regrettable, but understandable. If people perceive you as a spokesperson or a conduit, they will treat you as such. And, IMO, if that is a role you are both willing to play and able to play, then you must expect that some insensitive people will raise the topic with you at inopportune times. You do not have to accede to this, by the way; you are perfectly within your rights to say “I’d rather not talk about that right now, but if you have any questions, I’m usually at the information table from 2 to 4 on Tuesdays and Thursdays.” 2. You are a speaker for a belief system that is unpopular and, in your eyes, misunderstood. Therefore, it seems to me that you also cannot be surprised if you encounter veiled hostility, prejudice, and erroneous beliefs from those who don’t like it, agree with it, or understand it. Unfortunate, yes; surprising, no. With respect, I suggest you gird your loins to just deal with this, unpleasant though it may be, because it’s coming at you whether you like it or not. And I certainly respect your right to bitch about having to deal with it, and I admire your resolve to not meet rude comments with rude comments, and your frustration when nothing short of rudeness seems to work. 3. People who are overly enthusiastic in either (a) sharing their own beliefs, (b) criticisizing yours, or © getting in your business must be firmly and coldly told that you are not interested. Responses up to and including an increasingly loud “I said NO THANK YOU,” an outraged “Excuse me??,” or an aggressively stated “I don’t criticize your beliefs and I’ll thank you not to criticize mine” are certainly appropriate. You do not have to be an asshole, but you do have to be clear about your expectations that others will not be assholes to you. Being clear and firm in your expectations that you require to be treated respectfully and that you expect people who cannot be minimally respectful about your closely-held personal beliefs to then be silent about them, at least to your face. In other words, you must demand respect. If the presence of the overly-eager or overly hostile person requires you to cross a line and be bitchy in order to repulse them – well, that’s unfortunate, but it’s also the fault of the clueless people you’re dealing with. You are entitled to respect, and you must insist upon it. You also must refuse to be drawn into discussions or arguments with those who are not minimally respectful to you. The following statements should be understood to by any reasonable person, who should then back off: “I beg your pardon; I don’t believe that’s any of your business.” “I’d prefer not to discuss that right now; can we talk about it later?” “That’s not a subject I’m comfortable discussing with you.” “You may not agree with my beliefs, but I’d hope you’d recognize that I really _do_ believe them, and I’ll ask you not to be insulting to me about something that’s important to me.” “No, thank you.” "I’m not interested. “I said, I’m not interested.” If you can manage the delicate combination of being open to discussion of your beliefs in the hopes of educating people about them, and presenting yourself as someone who assuming she and her beliefs are both entitled to minimum standards of respect – and if you can manage the latter without being rude, even to those who are being rude to you – then you unquestionably will be an effective advocate for your cause. ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2002, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-pagan/134952/80 "2002-11-02T22:51:04Z")
I disagree, **particlewill**. Nothing whatsoever in the OP indicated that people were pressing their religious views on her in an “obnoxious” manner. As for “uninvited,” her OP clearly stated that she was getting approached by others of different views _because she herself was advocating her own beliefs_. It’s low-key witnessing, to be sure, but witnessing nonetheless. The audacity of complaining about it when others returned her witnessing strikes me as rather hypocritical, so I called her on it. You’re certainly entitled to see that as being a jerk, but hey, I happen to think freedom of speech and religion are pretty damn valuable. And as you will note, I agreed with **MIS** when she later provided examples of people acting like jerks–the defaced property, the refusing to leave her alone when requested, the sneers in the book store. If she’d lodged such complaints in the OP, I wouldn’t have had any complaint. Instead, she played the poor-me card simply because other people wanted to talk about religion even when they saw her away from the Pagan Students Association table. Oh, the humanity! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-pagan/134952.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-pagan/134952.md?page=5)