# I am Pagan. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 2, 2002, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-pagan/134952 "2002-11-02T02:50:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2002, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-pagan/134952/121 "2002-11-05T19:09:40Z")
And for the record, I would disagree with _anybody_ whose complaint amounted to nothing more than people wanting to talk about an issue s/he had raised. _That_ was my complaint with the OP, as distinguished from the later-mentioned examples of harassment and rudeness. ---
**Author:** ![Esprix](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprix/32/7899_2.png) [@Esprix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprix)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2002, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-pagan/134952/122 "2002-11-05T19:41:27Z")
You mean your examples of harassment and rudeness in this thread? Oh, you meant the people witnessing to the OP. Gotcha. Esprix ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2002, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-pagan/134952/123 "2002-11-05T19:50:08Z")
No, I do not mean the people witnessing to the OP. Seeking to discuss religion with another person is perfectly acceptable, particularly when the other person has been witnessing herself (however laid-back that witnessing might have been). By harassment and rudeness, I refer simply to the defacement of her organization’s table space, some people’s apparent unwillingness to leave her alone when asked, and the snotty looks at the bookstore. Any of those would have made perfectly good fodder for venting. But complaining about the guy with whom she willingly engaged in an hour-long discussion? Please. That’s just whining. ---
**Author:** ![Esprix](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprix/32/7899_2.png) [@Esprix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprix)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2002, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-pagan/134952/124 "2002-11-05T20:28:03Z")
Oh, quit your whining. Esprix ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2002, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-pagan/134952/125 "2002-11-05T20:37:28Z")
What about the dhining? ---
**Author:** ![lynn73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ebca7d/32.png) [@lynn73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lynn73)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2002, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-pagan/134952/126 "2002-11-06T00:09:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mirrored Indigo Shadows \* > it’s only been the more fervent and narrowminded of the Christian sects that has decided my beliefs are invalid. Some days I just want to be left alone, and the people who confront me because they don’t know enough about my views on life and how things work don’t give me that chance. \*\*It’s like I have to prove that I’m a decent person _before_ I can prove that the people who share my beliefs have a right to exist. \*\*It’s not fair, and it’s not right, but I have to live with it because there are too many people out there who are convinced that I have no right to be on the face of this planet with the beliefs I hold. > \*\* I haven’t been to the pit in awhile but decided to comment on this. Hello, **Mirrored Indigo Shadows**. I’m a Christian and that doesn’t mean I don’t think you’re a decent person. You have a right to exist as does everyone else. Let me explain perhaps why the Christians won’t leave you alone. It most definitely is probably because they care about your eternal soul. If they didn’t care, they’d leave you alone. Christians believe the Bible is God’s word and we believe what it teaches about reality, eternity, heaven, hell, etc. By trying to reach you for Christ they (we) aren’t trying to be mean or say you shouldn’t exist. We simply believe that, as the Bible teaches, we’re all lost sinners in need of a Savior. Those who accept Him have life, those who don’t don’t. This is why they’re so persistent in talking to you, because they believe your very immortal soul is at stake. If you wish to continue in your present beliefs in spite of what they share with you, of course you have every right to do so but try not to be to angry with them for they’re trying to win you to the Savior. ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2002, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-pagan/134952/127 "2002-11-06T00:34:42Z")
So, **H4e** , do you think there’s even the slightest chance that **MIS** has never heard that message before? ---
**Author:** ![catsix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@catsix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/catsix)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2002, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-pagan/134952/128 "2002-11-06T01:36:55Z")
As a somewhat agnostic Buddhist witch myself (yea, that’s one hell of a confusing set of religious beliefs sometimes, but I’m OK with it), I really wish these people who are so concerned about ‘immortal souls’ would spend more time caring about THEIR OWN soul and a lot less caring about mine. If I want you to try to save my soul, I’ll ask. Until then, please, have some respect for the fact that I am capable and happy taking care of myself. ---
**Author:** ![lynn73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ebca7d/32.png) [@lynn73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lynn73)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2002, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-pagan/134952/129 "2002-11-06T13:42:42Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by minty green \* > \*\*So, **H4e** , do you think there’s even the slightest chance that **MIS** has never heard that message before? \*\* I suppose he perhaps has, but without hearing from him/her I don’t know. If he listened to the people talking to him before telling them to get lost, yes, I imagine he/she’s heard it. ---
**Author:** ![Mac\_Guffin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/2bfe46/32.png) [@Mac\_Guffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mac_Guffin)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2002, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-pagan/134952/130 "2002-11-06T14:03:29Z")
Hey H4E. I thought you stormed out of this message board. ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2002, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-pagan/134952/131 "2002-11-06T14:48:23Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by His4ever \* > I suppose he perhaps has, but without hearing from him/her I don’t know. Well why don’t you ask first next time? There is hardly a person in this country who has never heard your message. It comes off as arrogant and condescending to repeat it reflexively whenever you see that somebody doesn’t accept your particular flavor of faith. Humble yourself before your fellow man, not just God. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2002, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-pagan/134952/132 "2002-11-06T16:42:24Z")
Whoa. I completely sympathize with the sense of offendedness that **MIS** felt regarding obtrusive efforts by some campus Christians to witness to her (“her” is correct, n’est ce pas?) thanks to her manning the Pagan Society table. However, **His4Ever** was here explaining her understanding of why those Christians might have been so moved. While I think the majority of us are well aware of what motivates Christians to do things, her point was that their actions were taken out of concern for the ultimate fate of **MIS** based on their understanding of God and His will. One of the most interesting afternoons I’ve spent was last spring, while visiting my old home town, when I walked through the riverfront park and encountered a young man, also a former resident back visiting, who was devoutly Wiccan. I remarked on the silver dragon he was wearing as a pendant, he talked a little about what it meant to him, the ice was broken, and he explained his understanding of Magick and how it works to me. Then I told him, essentially, “I’m a Christian, but don’t let that scare you,” and we talked a little bit about our differing world views and how I understood some of the things he’d spoken of. Neither of us was truly proselytizing, but we were both witnessing to our faith, and as a result, the discussion was a very productive one in terms of learning and spiritual growth for both of us. I personally think that what the Christians did wrong in the OP was not their desire to witness but their failure to respect **MIS** as a person with a mind and a life of her own, into which they were intruding with a formulaic sort of witness without thoughts of what her commitments, both in the temporal and the spiritual meanings of the word, might be. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2002, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-pagan/134952/133 "2002-11-06T17:05:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by lel \* > \*\* > > It may be irrelevant, but there is the chance, however slight, that there is one who is not familiar with the Gospel, or one who may be won over if they hear it only one more time. As much as it makes one look possibly crazy, it might be necessary. And that is a chance many are willing to take. \*\* There is a saying that leaps to my mind every Saturday, in the town centre, when I pass the local hellfire and brimstone crowd ranting about damnation and the flamability of homosexuals. That phrase is: Doing the Devils Work for Him. How, pray tell, does forcing someone to witness your witnessing, thereby, as in the case of my local fundies, making out christians to be bigoted loons with no respect for others privacy or beliefs, save anyone? Isn’t it likely that by your actions you are bringing your faith into disrepute and turning people from the right path? And if this is a possibility, with the liklihood that the souls saved, souls lost count is not going to be in your favour, how can you justify continuing to do it? Or do you honestly believe that more people think, “This God fellow seems a mean dude, I’d better click heels and fall into line else it’s going to start getting pretty damn warm.” than “Sheesh, what a bunch of loony codswallop, thank god I’m an athiest.”? ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2002, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-pagan/134952/134 "2002-11-06T17:08:40Z")
I understand that the Christian proselytizing **MIS** and others do so our of concern for the fate of those people. That does not, however, excuse the tendency of many Christians to express that concern by immediately launching into any variation of the following speech: > [@](#): > > Hey, you’re that girl from the Pagan table, right? You know, what you’re doing is wrong. Devil worship is a terrible sin, and I know that deep down, you must really feel bad about it. The only way to happiness and salvation is through Jesus Christ. Jesus loves you. And you’re going to hell if you don’t accept him as your lord and savior. I do not object in any way to the desire of those people to tell **MIS** about their faith. My point is essentially the same as yours, **Poly** : They should respect the people to whom they are speaking as people with minds and lives of their own, not just as heathens to be smacked with the Jesus stick. ---
**Author:** ![Esprix](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprix/32/7899_2.png) [@Esprix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprix)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2002, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-pagan/134952/135 "2002-11-06T17:14:57Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by **Polycarp** _ > > One of the most interesting afternoons I’ve spent was last spring, while visiting my old home town, when I walked through the riverfront park and encountered a young man, also a former resident back visiting, who was devoutly Wiccan. I remarked on the silver dragon he was wearing as a pendant, he talked a little about what it meant to him, the ice was broken, and he explained his understanding of Magick and how it works to me. Then I told him, essentially, “I’m a Christian, but don’t let that scare you,” and we talked a little bit about our differing world views and how I understood some of the things he’d spoken of. > > Neither of us was truly proselytizing, but we were both witnessing to our faith, and as a result, the discussion was a very productive one in terms of learning and spiritual growth for both of us. Why, how positively UU of you. 😉 > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by **tagos** _ > > “Sheesh, what a bunch of loony codswallop, thank god I’m an athiest.”? [sic] I’ll take “things that come to my own mind” for a thousand, Alex. Every time radical right fundaloonie[sup]\*[/sup], IRL or on this message board, starts either berating me for my life or starts telling me the tenents of their belief system, that’s just about what crosses my mind. Still, just because it’s not for me doesn’t mean it doesn’t work for them - I’ve seen enough good people do enough good things because of their religion (be it Christian, Wiccan, agnostic, atheist, Buddhist, what have you) to give faith, as a whole, the benefit of the doubt. Esprix ---
**Author:** ![red\_dragon60](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ce73a5/32.png) [@red\_dragon60](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/red_dragon60)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2002, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-pagan/134952/136 "2002-11-07T04:06:50Z")
Buddhist here. It’s such an out-there pseudo-religion philosophy that people don’t ask about it much. Anyway, on to the thread… One of the problems that I see facing modern-day paganism and Wicca (I am aware of the difference, but group these together for the purposes of this post) is that there seem to be two distinct groups of people who practice the religion: Those who genuinely believe it and those who are going through a phase and are using it as a tool. I have met some genuine pagans who have their own personal and sincere beliefs, and I have also met some who dress in black and wear pentagrams to scare their parents and teachers. I compare the latter group to people who go to church to be seen; that is, they use it as a window dressing to influence what others think of them without actually believing it. Wicca and Paganism, as far as I can tell, will have these imposters until it becomes a mainstream understood religion. Until an everyday person doesn’t think that witches are the brides of Satan, this will persist. It is purportedly “dark” and “gothic” (actually quite the opposite), making it a perfect choice for people who want to offend others and scare people around them, which is counter to the foundations of the two religions. ---
**Author:** ![Esprix](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprix/32/7899_2.png) [@Esprix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprix)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2002, 7:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-pagan/134952/137 "2002-11-07T07:32:01Z")
[sup]\*[/sup]Did we ever come up with an acceptable term for those on the radical right that use their overzealously conservative beliefs to attack others? I know “Fundies” was overruled, but what was the alternative? Esprix ---
**Author:** ![happyheathen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5e925/32.png) [@happyheathen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/happyheathen)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2002, 7:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-pagan/134952/138 "2002-11-07T07:37:40Z")
“bigots” works. also: “holy rollers” “holier-than-thou” “fire-and-brimstone morons”, and the old stand-by: “asshole”. Lately the term “Republican” has been gaining strength. ---
**Author:** ![Swampwolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8edcca/32.png) [@Swampwolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Swampwolf)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2002, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-pagan/134952/139 "2002-11-07T15:40:43Z")
> [@](#): > > Did we ever come up with an acceptable term for those on the radical right that use their overzealously conservative beliefs to attack others? how about “witlessing” as the verb form for what they do? ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2002, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-pagan/134952/140 "2002-11-07T17:27:14Z")
LOL @ “witlessing”!! 😃 I used to use “fundaloonies” to distinguish between conservative evangelical and usually reasonable-literalist Christians who self-identify as fundamentalists (but who are not “fundaloonies”) on the one hand, and the folks who are convinced that God demands of them that they condemn everyone and everything that doesn’t have the endorsement of Jerry Falwell and Anne Coulter, on the other. **Red Dragon** : I take your point about sincere pagans vs. those who use paganism as a form of rebellion – but one of the hardest lessons I ever had to learn as a Christian is not to prejudge what’s in someone’s heart. Without condemning your insight, may I respectfully suggest that you need to look at the supposed pagans-for-show in that same light? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-pagan/134952.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-pagan/134952.md?page=8)