# I am pissed off at failure of S.3816 (the anti-outsourcing bill) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 5, 2010, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-pissed-off-at-failure-of-s-3816-the-anti-outsourcing-bill/556167 "2010-10-05T19:42:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2010, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-pissed-off-at-failure-of-s-3816-the-anti-outsourcing-bill/556167/21 "2010-10-06T15:48:59Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > Companies that wish to employ primarily U.S. residents cannot remain competitive on a global market with companies that employ primarily residents of countries where the government carries the burden of providing health care. Like China and India? And presumably countries in Europe like [France](http://abcnews.go.com/Business/wireStory?id=10008724) have lower unemployment than the US, because the French government pays for health care. Right? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Binarydrone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3da27b/32.png) [@Binarydrone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Binarydrone)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2010, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-pissed-off-at-failure-of-s-3816-the-anti-outsourcing-bill/556167/22 "2010-10-06T16:53:15Z")
> [@Walmarticus](#): > > …It’s an interesting (crazy) theory. I still find it more plausible that foreigners will work cheaper. The thing is, though, that this is an incredibly myopic view. It is true that labor itself cost less, but (at least in the IT world) you tend to get lower quality product, things take a lot longer, worse service, negatinve impact on the productivity and retention of the people that got to keep their jobs, language issues and angry customers in call center situations, security risk. The list goes on and on. It just is incredibly short sighted. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2010, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-pissed-off-at-failure-of-s-3816-the-anti-outsourcing-bill/556167/23 "2010-10-06T17:14:35Z")
> [@Binarydrone](#): > > > [@Walmarticus](#): > > > > …It’s an interesting (crazy) theory. I still find it more plausible that foreigners will work cheaper. > > The thing is, though, that this is an incredibly myopic view. It is true that labor itself cost less, but (at least in the IT world) you tend to get lower quality product, things take a lot longer, worse service, negatinve impact on the productivity and retention of the people that got to keep their jobs, language issues and angry customers in call center situations, security risk. The list goes on and on. > > It just is incredibly short sighted. I know that posting an intelligent, thoughtful analysis in Pit thread filled with blind idiots who know nothing about business is a pointless excercise but here we go. Managers know this. They know it a lot better than you, frankly. They make decisions based on what they expect to be the probable outcome of offshoring.Sometimes it makes sense, sometimes not. Sometimes people make mistakes and their guesses are off. All things are trade-offs, and sometimes the trade off doesn’t happen to go the way you want. However, panic over off-shoring is stupid. It was always stupid. It was stupid back when and it is stupid now. It’s a global economy. You either trade, including labor, or you die. People obsessed with offshoring don’t understand that money and jobs aren’t what make economies run, they’re a byproduct of producing what people want and need. Deal with it, and go learn some economics before you embarass yourself in public again. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2010, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-pissed-off-at-failure-of-s-3816-the-anti-outsourcing-bill/556167/24 "2010-10-06T17:21:00Z")
I am blown away by how insightful and thoughtful that was. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2010, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-pissed-off-at-failure-of-s-3816-the-anti-outsourcing-bill/556167/25 "2010-10-06T17:30:42Z")
Can someone clarify specifically what the bill was supposed to do? It was an attempt to change the tax code, and not necessarily to end outsourcing. I’m not sure whether I support this bill or not. ---
**Author:** ![Walmarticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Walmarticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walmarticus)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2010, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-pissed-off-at-failure-of-s-3816-the-anti-outsourcing-bill/556167/26 "2010-10-06T17:39:07Z")
> [@Binarydrone](#): > > > [@Walmarticus](#): > > > > …It’s an interesting (crazy) theory. I still find it more plausible that foreigners will work cheaper. > > The thing is, though, that this is an incredibly myopic view. It is true that labor itself cost less, but (at least in the IT world) you tend to get lower quality product, things take a lot longer, worse service, negatinve impact on the productivity and retention of the people that got to keep their jobs, language issues and angry customers in call center situations, security risk. The list goes on and on. > > It just is incredibly short sighted. All of which people are willing to abide because of drastically reduced prices. I find the traditional explanation far more likely than uppity employees. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2010, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-pissed-off-at-failure-of-s-3816-the-anti-outsourcing-bill/556167/27 "2010-10-06T17:53:20Z")
We don’t just offshore because we have to pay for healthcare. We also do it to escape environmental regulation and to get far cheaper labor, without unions. Chinese labor is up to 140 bucks a month. That is why corps are moving to Vietnam. They will continue until they have used up the cheap labor and no regulation. By then Americans will be ready to work for 50 cents an hour and delete all regulation. > **[Vietnam seeks gains as China labor costs rise](https://www.csmonitor.com/World/Asia-Pacific/2010/0912/Vietnam-seeks-gains-as-China-labor-costs-rise)** > > With China labor costs rising, Vietnam is hoping that its cheaper labor will attract more foreign investment. But Vietnam's rickety infrastructure and lack of skilled workers remain obstacles to growth. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2010, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-pissed-off-at-failure-of-s-3816-the-anti-outsourcing-bill/556167/28 "2010-10-06T18:06:41Z")
What is clear, is they are not Chinese corporations. Many started off American but they owe no allegiancies . They will leave any country to evade taxes, get cheaper labor and avoid regulation. We need international law. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2010, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-pissed-off-at-failure-of-s-3816-the-anti-outsourcing-bill/556167/29 "2010-10-06T18:40:55Z")
OK, I already see something stupid in this bill. You get a 2-year tax holiday for hiring an American to replace a foreign worker. Employers are going to this for a 2-year tax savings? What happens in years 3 thru 30? Looks like a nice little way for employers to get a tax break on doing something short term that they probably would’ve done anyway. BTW, OP. Your second cite that is supposed to have more details isn’t very helpful at all. There is another provision that changes the tax code so that corporations can’t defer taxes on income earned outside the US. They currently can do this as long as they don’t bring that income back into the US, but keep it at a foreign subsidiary. My question about this is, how does this compare to what other industrialized countries do? If it it puts US corporations at a disadvantage, then it’s a stupid thing to do. ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2010, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-pissed-off-at-failure-of-s-3816-the-anti-outsourcing-bill/556167/30 "2010-10-06T20:20:56Z")
> [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > > [@friedo](#): > > > > You’re not entitled to a job. If your job is sent overseas, learn something more valuable, like how to clean houses. > > Yay Republicans! Country first! Rah rah! It’s all about jobs. Americans need jobs. Unless you bitch about Republicans wanting to ship your job to Rangoon in which case, fuck you, go sell oranges on the freeway. I’m sure glad the Republicans have all our best interests in their hearts. I have no idea what this means. ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2010, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-pissed-off-at-failure-of-s-3816-the-anti-outsourcing-bill/556167/31 "2010-10-06T20:28:27Z")
I think it’s an overly verbose way of saying _WHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOSH_. ---
**Author:** ![Binarydrone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3da27b/32.png) [@Binarydrone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Binarydrone)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2010, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-pissed-off-at-failure-of-s-3816-the-anti-outsourcing-bill/556167/32 "2010-10-06T20:30:29Z")
smiling bandit, I am not unclear of the concept of a global economy. I would also point out that it would be really swell if this wonderful global economy had a byproduct of producing jobs and prosperity for more people (word on the street is that there are a lot of people that want and need that stuff). What it seems to do in practice is concentrate wealth in an increasingly small minority. I do thank you for being, as always, predictable in your response. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2010, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-pissed-off-at-failure-of-s-3816-the-anti-outsourcing-bill/556167/33 "2010-10-06T20:46:52Z")
> [@friedo](#): > > > [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > > > Yay Republicans! Country first! Rah rah! It’s all about jobs. Americans need jobs. Unless you bitch about Republicans wanting to ship your job to Rangoon in which case, fuck you, go sell oranges on the freeway. I’m sure glad the Republicans have all our best interests in their hearts. > > I have no idea what this means. Yeah. Cognitive dissonance is a bitch, isn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2010, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-pissed-off-at-failure-of-s-3816-the-anti-outsourcing-bill/556167/34 "2010-10-06T21:11:39Z")
Man, is your face going to be red when you catch up to the joke you missed, **Jack Batty**. ---
**Author:** ![purplehorseshoe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/purplehorseshoe/32/2996_2.png) [@purplehorseshoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/purplehorseshoe)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2010, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-pissed-off-at-failure-of-s-3816-the-anti-outsourcing-bill/556167/35 "2010-10-06T21:30:32Z")
No it won’t. Jack’s company outsourced both its Sense of Humor dept. AND the entire Cognitive Dissonance branch to Vietnam last month. Only people left are Jack, and Linda from accounting. ---
**Author:** ![Mr\_Smashy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/2bfe46/32.png) [@Mr\_Smashy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr_Smashy)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2010, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-pissed-off-at-failure-of-s-3816-the-anti-outsourcing-bill/556167/36 "2010-10-06T21:33:31Z")
OP, do you lay any blame for the increased outsourcing on the fact that the US has the [second highest](http://www.taxfoundation.org/files/corptaxrates_usvsoecd_state&fed-20091201.pdf) corporate tax rate in the OECD? If you were really concerned about jobs going overseas, and not just bashing corporations a la Obama’s never ending crusade against insurance companies and such, would you be open to that solution (ie, lowering the corporate tax burden to encourage global companies to locate here and not in Bermuda, et al)? PS I hope you feel better from your surgery ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2010, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-pissed-off-at-failure-of-s-3816-the-anti-outsourcing-bill/556167/37 "2010-10-06T21:35:51Z")
> [@Binarydrone](#): > > > [@Walmarticus](#): > > > > …It’s an interesting (crazy) theory. I still find it more plausible that foreigners will work cheaper. > > The thing is, though, that this is an incredibly myopic view. It is true that labor itself cost less, but (at least in the IT world) you tend to get lower quality product, things take a lot longer, worse service, negatinve impact on the productivity and retention of the people that got to keep their jobs, language issues and angry customers in call center situations, security risk. The list goes on and on. > > It just is incredibly short sighted. I was involved in the outsourcing of our garment industry in the South Eastern USA to the Carribean and eventually China. There is really nothing you can do about that sort of outsourcing. Noone gives a shit if your Fruit of the Loom T-Shirts were made in Tennessee or Honduras. There is a perception problem at first but in industries where labor is a big component of the cost or production like garment manufacturing, American seamstresses would have to be about 12 times more productive to bring those sewing factories back to this country. They were just overpriced for what they could produce. I don’t know the aprticulars of IT but they didn’t export your jobs because you had a hippie haircut. They exported your jobs because your jobs paid too much relative to what you cold produce. I know it suck, but there was a period of time there when a kid with a certificate in windows made more than an electrical engineer with a 4 year degree. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2010, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-pissed-off-at-failure-of-s-3816-the-anti-outsourcing-bill/556167/38 "2010-10-06T21:36:31Z")
> [@Mr\_Smashy](#): > > OP, do you lay any blame for the increased outsourcing on the fact that the US has the [second highest](http://www.taxfoundation.org/files/corptaxrates_usvsoecd_state&fed-20091201.pdf) corporate tax rate in the OECD? I do think that’s the problem. The solution is to get everyone else to raise their taxes. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2010, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-pissed-off-at-failure-of-s-3816-the-anti-outsourcing-bill/556167/39 "2010-10-06T21:42:08Z")
[quote=“smiling\_bandit, post:23, topic:556167”] > [@Binarydrone](#): > > The thing is, though, that this is an incredibly myopic view. It is true that labor itself cost less, but (at least in the IT world) you tend to get lower quality product, things take a lot longer, worse service, negatinve impact on the productivity and retention of the people that got to keep their jobs, language issues and angry customers in call center situations, security risk. The list goes on and on. > > It just is incredibly short sighted. > [@](#): > > I know that posting an intelligent, thoughtful analysis in Pit thread filled with blind idiots who know nothing about business is a pointless excercise but here we go. > > Managers know this. They know it a lot better than you, frankly. They make decisions based on what they expect to be the probable outcome of offshoring.Sometimes it makes sense, sometimes not. Sometimes people make mistakes and their guesses are off. All things are trade-offs, and sometimes the trade off doesn’t happen to go the way you want. > > However, panic over off-shoring is stupid. It was always stupid. It was stupid back when and it is stupid now. It’s a global economy. You either trade, including labor, or you die. I agree that economic reality sets in and makes these decisions almost inevitable but how is the panic over offshoring stupid (other than this particular bill which has more than a few fatal flaws)? People are losing theirn jobs with no real prospect of ever getting another one. Its not like you can’t make what people want and need here in the USA, why are you so reluctant to admit that offshopring is about money. > [@](#): > > People obsessed with offshoring don’t understand that money and jobs aren’t what make economies run, they’re a byproduct of producing what people want and need. Deal with it, and go learn some economics before you embarass yourself in public again. And you don’t think pricing and cost have anything to do with it, the economy is just trying to make stuff people want? The economy might not be about money per se but money is driving the decision to offshore. I don’t blame anyone for that but why shouldn’t our government do stuff to protect those jobs? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2010, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-pissed-off-at-failure-of-s-3816-the-anti-outsourcing-bill/556167/40 "2010-10-06T21:44:13Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Can someone clarify specifically what the bill was supposed to do? It was an attempt to change the tax code, and not necessarily to end outsourcing. I’m not sure whether I support this bill or not. I don’t think you would. Part of the bill would have eliminated the deductibility of closing downa factory if you were going to move those jobs overseas. They were going to make an exception to the deuctibility of “ordinary and necessary business expense” to exclude the domestic costs of offshoring. I think thy might have been fiddling with subpart F as well. Frankly, congress can do whatever it wants but It is not really sound tax policy. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-pissed-off-at-failure-of-s-3816-the-anti-outsourcing-bill/556167.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-pissed-off-at-failure-of-s-3816-the-anti-outsourcing-bill/556167.md?page=3)