# I am Pitting the stupid question: Do you want to cancel Medicare? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 28, 2009, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-pitting-the-stupid-question-do-you-want-to-cancel-medicare/508079 "2009-08-28T20:36:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![freedumb2003](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c2a13f/32.png) [@freedumb2003](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/freedumb2003)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2009, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-pitting-the-stupid-question-do-you-want-to-cancel-medicare/508079/1 "2009-08-28T20:36:14Z")
This completely disingenuous question is so full of assumptions and general crap that liberals would use it. Let’s finish the question: “If not, do you want your money (taken at a point of a gun) back?” If I got back the money I put into Medicare for my working life I could invest it into a conservative set of investments and pay for high quality medical insurance for the rest of my life and have money left – no government needed. (my first Pit – I welcome the inevitable fallacious lefty “arguments” but if I did this wrong place or thread type for this board/category I really want to know. I would appreciate it if the two were not conflated). ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2009, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-pitting-the-stupid-question-do-you-want-to-cancel-medicare/508079/2 "2009-08-28T20:39:19Z")
> [@freedumb2003](#): > > If I got back the money I put into Medicare for my working life I could invest it into a conservative set of investments and pay for high quality medical insurance for the rest of my life and have money left – no government needed. Show us the figures. ---
**Author:** ![Defensive\_Indifference](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/defensive_indifference/32/6502_2.png) [@Defensive\_Indifference](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Defensive_Indifference)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2009, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-pitting-the-stupid-question-do-you-want-to-cancel-medicare/508079/3 "2009-08-28T20:47:54Z")
The average household income in the US in 2008 was $50,233 ([US Census](http://www.census.gov/Press-Release/www/releases/archives/income_wealth/012528.html)) The payroll tax for Medicare (including the employer and employee portion) was 2.9% ([SSA](http://www.ssa.gov/OACT/ProgData/taxRates.html)) The average American household thus pays about $1,450/year in Medicare taxes. The average employer-sponsored private insurance premium for a family of 4 is $13,000/year ([NCHC](http://www.nchc.org/facts/cost.shtml)) If you can turn $1,400 into $13,000, I salute your mad investing skillz. ---
**Author:** ![wierdaaron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/eada6e/32.png) [@wierdaaron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wierdaaron)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2009, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-pitting-the-stupid-question-do-you-want-to-cancel-medicare/508079/4 "2009-08-28T20:49:23Z")
> [@Bayard](#): > > If you can turn $1,400 into $13,000, I salute your mad investing skillz. Easy, you invest it in health insurance stocks. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2009, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-pitting-the-stupid-question-do-you-want-to-cancel-medicare/508079/5 "2009-08-28T20:50:00Z")
I honestly can’t figure out what the OP is pitting. That liberals “would” use this question? Er, do they? What’s the rage, and who’s the target? ---
**Author:** ![wierdaaron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/eada6e/32.png) [@wierdaaron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wierdaaron)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2009, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-pitting-the-stupid-question-do-you-want-to-cancel-medicare/508079/6 "2009-08-28T20:52:01Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > I honestly can’t figure out what the OP is pitting. That liberals “would” use this question? Er, do they? What’s the rage, and who’s the target? I think what he’s getting at, is that when the birthers/deathers/hitlerers claim that government-run healthcare = holocaust, the common rebuttal is to point to Medicare. Crazy person: “Government should stay out of healthcare!” Not crazy person: “So we should get rid of Medicare then?” Crazy person: _mind exploding_ ---
**Author:** ![Defensive\_Indifference](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/defensive_indifference/32/6502_2.png) [@Defensive\_Indifference](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Defensive_Indifference)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2009, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-pitting-the-stupid-question-do-you-want-to-cancel-medicare/508079/7 "2009-08-28T20:52:12Z")
> [@wierdaaron](#): > > Easy, you invest it in health insurance stocks. [Milo Minderbinder]And everybody gets a share![/MM] ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2009, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-pitting-the-stupid-question-do-you-want-to-cancel-medicare/508079/8 "2009-08-28T20:56:06Z")
> [@wierdaaron](#): > > I think what he’s getting at, is that when the birthers/deathers/hitlerers claim that government-run healthcare = holocaust, the common rebuttal is to point to Medicare. > > Crazy person: “Government should stay out of healthcare!” > Not crazy person: “So we should get rid of Medicare then?” > Crazy person: _mind exploding_ Ah. And rather than “_mind exploding_”, it appears the _actual_ CP rebuttal is “Yes! I can do better than the government, through the magic of capitalism!” ---
**Author:** ![freedumb2003](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c2a13f/32.png) [@freedumb2003](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/freedumb2003)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2009, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-pitting-the-stupid-question-do-you-want-to-cancel-medicare/508079/9 "2009-08-28T20:57:42Z")
[quote=“samclem, post:2, topic:508079”] [quote=“freedumb2003, post:1, topic:508079”] If I got back the money I put into Medicare for my working life I could invest it into a conservative set of investments and pay for high quality medical insurance for the rest of my life and have money left – no government needed. > [@](#): > > Show us the figures. Well, I have contributed around $200,000 over the last 30 years (that goes up a lot over the next 10 years), so, using round figures, if I could have invested that money (lets say it totals 50K and including the Employer % (which would have gone to me if not Uncle Sam), a 40 year 50K investment for 40 years us about a million – more than enough to pay for medical insurance. But it doesn’t answer the underlying question: Mr./Ms. Politician? If you want to posit removing Medicare then you damn well better posit reimbursing the money you stole for it. ---
**Author:** ![freedumb2003](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c2a13f/32.png) [@freedumb2003](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/freedumb2003)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2009, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-pitting-the-stupid-question-do-you-want-to-cancel-medicare/508079/10 "2009-08-28T20:58:44Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > I honestly can’t figure out what the OP is pitting. That liberals “would” use this question? Er, do they? What’s the rage, and who’s the target? They do use it – don’t you watch TV? It is the standard talking point for the left in almost every town hall meeting. ---
**Author:** ![freedumb2003](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c2a13f/32.png) [@freedumb2003](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/freedumb2003)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2009, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-pitting-the-stupid-question-do-you-want-to-cancel-medicare/508079/11 "2009-08-28T20:59:59Z")
> [@wierdaaron](#): > > I think what he’s getting at, is that when the birthers/deathers/hitlerers claim that government-run healthcare = holocaust, the common rebuttal is to point to Medicare. > > Crazy person: “Government should stay out of healthcare!” > Not crazy person: “So we should get rid of Medicare then?” > Crazy person: _mind exploding_ Time and time again has show that the private sector can do almost everything (except for military and even the the government subcontracts parts of THAT to the private sector) better than government. That isn’t crazy – that is history. ---
**Author:** ![Hal\_Briston](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a9a28c/32.png) [@Hal\_Briston](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hal_Briston)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2009, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-pitting-the-stupid-question-do-you-want-to-cancel-medicare/508079/12 "2009-08-28T21:00:07Z")
> [@Bayard](#): > > If you can turn $1,400 into $13,000, I salute your mad investing skillz. Not only that, but that rate is supposed to stay stable once every single person on Medicare starts investing. ---
**Author:** ![freedumb2003](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c2a13f/32.png) [@freedumb2003](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/freedumb2003)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2009, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-pitting-the-stupid-question-do-you-want-to-cancel-medicare/508079/13 "2009-08-28T21:01:07Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > Ah. > > And rather than “_mind exploding_”, it appears the _actual_ CP rebuttal is “Yes! I can do better than the government, through the magic of capitalism!” Thanks for getting it. ---
**Author:** ![DianaG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ab992/32.png) [@DianaG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DianaG)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2009, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-pitting-the-stupid-question-do-you-want-to-cancel-medicare/508079/14 "2009-08-28T21:07:38Z")
> [@freedumb2003](#): > > my first Pit And it’s _adorable_. tickletickletickle!!! ---
**Author:** ![wierdaaron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/eada6e/32.png) [@wierdaaron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wierdaaron)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2009, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-pitting-the-stupid-question-do-you-want-to-cancel-medicare/508079/15 "2009-08-28T21:08:00Z")
freedumb2003, I really can’t figure you out. You’ve been here 2 days and every post you’ve made is such overblown, cliche conservative vitriol you seem like some lefter trying to parody a righter. > [@Straight Dope Message Board Political Survey](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/straight-dope-message-board-political-survey/507978/18): > > On a scale of 1 to 10 with 1 being “He should be impeached” and 10 being “One of the best Presidents” how would you rate President Barack Obama of the USA so far?: > > 1 :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2009, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-pitting-the-stupid-question-do-you-want-to-cancel-medicare/508079/16 "2009-08-28T21:08:32Z")
> [@freedumb2003](#): > > Thanks for getting it. You’re welcome. It’s a lame pitting. You’re being outraged over being asked a question you apparently believe to be a reasonable one, since you answered it. And on an unrelated note, I don’t watch TV. ---
**Author:** ![freedumb2003](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c2a13f/32.png) [@freedumb2003](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/freedumb2003)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2009, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-pitting-the-stupid-question-do-you-want-to-cancel-medicare/508079/17 "2009-08-28T21:08:53Z")
> [@Bayard](#): > > The average household income in the US in 2008 was $50,233 ([US Census](http://www.census.gov/Press-Release/www/releases/archives/income_wealth/012528.html)) > > The payroll tax for Medicare (including the employer and employee portion) was 2.9% ([SSA](http://www.ssa.gov/OACT/ProgData/taxRates.html)) > > The average American household thus pays about $1,450/year in Medicare taxes. > > The average employer-sponsored private insurance premium for a family of 4 is $13,000/year ([NCHC](http://www.nchc.org/facts/cost.shtml)) > > If you can turn $1,400 into $13,000, I salute your mad investing skillz. You don’t account for time nor do you account for employer contribution (6%). The idea is to hold these until after you are 65 (same rules as Medicare) – run the numbers for 45 years and try again. A 1400 base invested with a 8% ROR and only $1000 a year for 45 years is over $500,000. That is withOUT the employer contribution (which should go to you as opposed to the gummit, which has to give it back to someone and I can make a strong argument it would have been a benefit) – lets do the numbers at $4,500 and $4,500 a year for 45 years: that is over 2 MILLION! And that assumes no increase in pay over the years. You need to work a bit on your math skills. ---
**Author:** ![Defensive\_Indifference](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/defensive_indifference/32/6502_2.png) [@Defensive\_Indifference](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Defensive_Indifference)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2009, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-pitting-the-stupid-question-do-you-want-to-cancel-medicare/508079/18 "2009-08-28T21:09:18Z")
> [@freedumb2003](#): > > Well, I have contributed around $200,000 over the last 30 years. You have contributed $200K to medicare over 30 years? 200,000 / .029 ~ 6,896,500 You’ve **averaged** $230K in salary over the past 30 years? Not impossible, I know. Just curious. ---
**Author:** ![freedumb2003](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c2a13f/32.png) [@freedumb2003](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/freedumb2003)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2009, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-pitting-the-stupid-question-do-you-want-to-cancel-medicare/508079/19 "2009-08-28T21:09:54Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > You’re welcome. It’s a lame pitting. You’re being outraged over being asked a question you apparently believe to be a reasonable one, since you answered it. > And on an unrelated note, I don’t watch TV. You have an answer? I would love to hear it. If the politicians and lefties can’t answer my question, they shouldn’t ask theirs. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2009, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-pitting-the-stupid-question-do-you-want-to-cancel-medicare/508079/20 "2009-08-28T21:09:59Z")
> [@freedumb2003](#): > > Time and time again has show that the private sector can do almost everything (except for military and even the the government subcontracts parts of THAT to the private sector) better than government. > > That isn’t crazy – that is history. _Crazy_ history. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-am-pitting-the-stupid-question-do-you-want-to-cancel-medicare/508079.md?page=2)